6.5 creedmoor recommendations

[Chernobyl]

Im looking at building a 6.5 creedmoor and need some recommendations. My budget is $3k and let’s say it’s a perfect world and everything is in stock. This gun will be used primarily for hog hunting. Most shots will be taken free hand or with shooting sticks. It will be topped with a halo LR. Reliability and weight is important. Prefer a 16 or 18” barrel at most. Tell me what brands you guys would go it. Thanks

 

[carte89]

I have a POF 16.5" in 6.5 creedmoor that I am possibly going to sell if interested. I purchased a JP lrp 07 is the only reason for selling.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

LaRue Tactical 18 Inch PredatOBR 6.5 Creedmoor - LaRue Tactical

 

[acudaowner]

tika , bogara rpr ruger american all have a 6.5 creed version all could be carried all could shoot if you can shoot them and have seen all for at the range being used to print some really nice groups all fit well within your 3k price range , not to mention all the different brand of ar's chambered in 6.5 creed moor good luck with which ever brand you go with and happy bacon hunting .

 

[owtlaw]

Robinson Armament XCR-M is my go to for the 6.5 Cr.

 

[rpoL98]

since you said the word "build", and this is the "semi-auto" forum ...

barrel: Criterion, or Faxon heavy fluted match, or something from Compass Lake if your money is really burning a hole in your pocket.
receiver set: Aero Precision M5
BCG: Aero nitrided or Brownells nitrided, they both have the HP skinny firing pin.
handguard: 15" Aero R-One, or SLR ION Lite, 15" HG for a 16" barrel, 16" HG for a 18" barrel
muzzle brake: VG6 Gamma "65"
trigger: Geissele SSA or SSA-E
buttstock: B5 Systems SOPMOD, AR-15 carbine buffer tube (POF enhanced or Aero enhanced)
buffer/spring: Slash's HeavyBuffer 308 carbine setup
magazines: PMAGs or KAC
charging handle: Raptor, Geissele, Rainier Avalanche
scope mount: Badger Ordnance, or Geissele, or ADM or Midwest Industries

misc:
DPMS-brand LR-308 bolt catch, if you can find one.
Norgon ambi mag catch
Aero M5 308 mag release button

just my 2 cents, that's all. others will disagree and fling mud, oh well.

 

[BytorJr]

That's a good question. With the performance of my upper, and I'm giving the manufacturer one last chance to chime in and tell me WTF is wrong, and then I'll let the world know who it is should they not pull through. I fail to believe 140/147 are flying all over the place and 120s don't.

 

[Chernobyl]

Yes it will be a build. Thanks rpol98. And thanks to the other guys’ suggestions as well but I plan on building this piece by piece

 

[cgbills]

Faxon has their heavy Gunner and fluted in 6.5 CM. I have a 18in heavy Gunner that is on its way to me. I would recommend not going below 18in, because of the pressure of the 6.5 CM. A 16in mid gas port pressure will be much higher than the 18in rifle.

 

[drewthebrave]

Faxon has their heavy Gunner and fluted in 6.5 CM. I have a 18in heavy Gunner that is on its way to me. I would recommend not going below 18in, because of the pressure of the 6.5 CM. A 16in mid gas port pressure will be much higher than the 18in rifle.

Agreed, especially on the Rifle-length gas port. The Faxon will be plenty accurate for hunting. However, if you're looking for sub MOA accuracy (which is probably overkill for most hunting) you might want to contact Craddock Precision to see about having a custom barrel spun from a Bartlein blank into a light profile, possibly with a +1" gas system to smooth the recoil impulse a bit. I have an 18" Craddock Criterion barrel with extended Rifle +1" gas system, and it's a joy to shoot - but it's about 3.5 lbs, so it's not exactly ideal for your uses.

For the handguard, I'd give a good look at some of the carbon fiber options, like Smoke Composites, Coda Evolution, or some of the others I can't seem to remember. Carbon fiber is light & rigid, but it's also great for temperature stability so it won't freeze through your gloves in the winter like an aluminum handguard will.

Everything else is pretty much personal preference, so pick what you like & roll with it.

 

[Im2bent]

Gonna need a gas block Superlative adjustable.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Recently went through the same thing.

The clear winner was the LMT MWS. The system is proven, modular and offers cheap/quick change match barrels (Pre-covid) at a fair price point.

Owned just about everything over the years from SR25, Armalites, Eagle Arms, DPMS, S&W, GAP, Wilson, CMMG and a bunch of built guns.

If reliability is important, stick to factory guns. My shortlist came down to Mk20 in 6.5, SR25 in 6.5, SP10 & LMT.

 

[rpoL98]

Gonna need a gas block Superlative adjustable.

yes, an adjustable gas block is well-advised. I use the SLR ones.

 

[BikePilot]

How I’d probably approach it:

• Mega receiver set (or whatever your favorite is, these seem well made and are relatively cheap from JSE)
• Proof carbon 20” barrel
• JP FMOS HP bcg
• SSA trigger
• JP hand guard (I like the relatively slim, round guard for hand held shots)
• JP SCS buffer and spring
• SLR Sentry adjustable gas block
• PVA ultralight muzzle break

 

[bfoosh006]

yes, an adjustable gas block is well-advised. I use the SLR ones.

rpoL98 is on the right train of thought in both his posts... I was going to add the SLR Adj. GB to his quoted list.
I tend to like heavy weight recoil buffers and recoil springs... so a Tubbs Flatwire 308 recoil spring, and a KAK 5.3oz 2.75" buffer for a AR15 carbine tube ( DPMS Pattern 308 carbine stock )
Or a 5.4oz 3.25" buffer with a Vltor / Armalite length 308 carbine buffer tube ( Armalite Pattern ), with a Tubbs .308 Flatwire recoil spring.

Make sure the interior of the buffer tube is smooth.

I also suggest you use a typical accuracy tricks in your build. IMHO, it is money and time well spent.
Snug upper to lower fit...
Lap the upper receiver face, and SS shim or Loctite in the barrel extension.
Make sure your gas tube has no binding through the upper and into the gas key.
Ample room for your gas block through the free float tube .... NO possible chance of contact is my goal.

There are other tricks as well...

Buy the very best barrel you can afford.... again, my humble opinion , but a great barrel is a bargain given current costs of ammo and other parts.

 

[JS8588]

JP FMOS BCG
Wilson Combat Barrel (they have 16 or 18. Your choice)
Battle Arms Titanium Gas Block Ionbond Finish
Bootleg nitrided gas tube
Atheris M-10 15 inch handguard
V7 Harbinger reciever set
Lantac forward assist
Strike Industries dust cover
Magpul Pro BUIS
Radian Talon safety
Radian AR10 SD Charging Handle
Triggertech Competitive AR10 trigger
Tango Down reduced angle grip
V7 Titanium takedown/pivot pins
Lancer Carbon Fiber stock (A1 or A2 length)
Griffin Armament taper mount flash comp
Griffin Armament Explorr suppressor
**Edit oops forgot the buffer bits**
Tubbs Flatwire AR10 Buffer Spring
White Oak Armament Buffer Tube
Jones Arms EAB AR10 Rifle Buffer

Enjoy!

 

[trackdonkey]

If I were building this, and I had $3K, I would focus on an ultralight build. 2a armament and v7 parts, carbon barrel, hiperfire trigger. I'd have a lot of fun with it. Come to think of it, I might do that.

 

[Chernobyl]

Thanks guys! I’ll let y’all know how it turns out.

 

[LRRPF52]

Just some background: I’ve been dealing with AR-10s/SR-25s and copies for the better part of the past 20 years, in addition to AR-15s since the 1980s.

Reliability is really the top priority and pretty difficult to get dialed-in if you build. Heck, most manufacturers still have regular problems. Some of the best manufacturers had a lot of hiccups and road blocks along the way, especially the pioneers.

Jim Sullivan, who did the draft work scaling down the AR-15 from the AR-10 at ArmaLite in the late 1950s, said for some reasons they could never figure out, the AR-10 was never as reliable as the AR-15, even though the daddy had a head start on the baby of several years.

After working on these things, competing with them, troubleshooting them, and trying to keep track of all the variations along the way of living through the new wave of large frame guns (that launched with the SR-25 in the late 1980s), I’ve taken quite a few notes on what seems to work and what doesn’t.

A general rule you might want to consider when taking the builder’s approach (the most prone to reliability and accuracy issues), is to source as many parts from a reputable company that has been building them and standing by them for a long time.

If you get a drop-in barrel from Company A, a BCG from Co. R, receivers from Co. D, gas tube from the usual sources, gas block from Amazon, buffer from here, spring from there, a 6061 RET, an LPK meant for AR-15s, etc. etc., it’s going to be a constant project just getting the parts replaced with ones that will function.

Since there is no TDP and industry standard for large frame guns, critical parts have been known to not fit so well together, and you get:

* Bolt lugs smashing into or shearing against extension teeth.
* Carrier rails smashing into RET boss threads in the lower, even when the correct buffer length, RET, and action spring are used.
* Gas rings that get shredded in poorly-machined bolt bores in the carrier
* Charge handles that don’t fit properly.
* Gas ports drilled too large
* Gas blocks too large for the journal for a loose slip-fit and insufficient gas seal
* Nitrided carrier keys that eat gas tube flanges
* YFS gas key fasteners
* Incorrect firing pin materials and hardness (tips break, cups form, primers get blanked or pierced)
* Incorrect gas system lengths (ArmaLite RLGS vs AR-15 RLGS with mismatched tubes)
* Bolt catches that break, especially when suppressed or with heavy buffers and large gas ports
* LPKs with AR-15 mag catches without enough threaded shaft for the mag release button

I could go on. Anyway, I really like to use as many parts from under the same roof from a great company.

The easy answer for a build is to go with the LaRue large frame kit and keep as many of the parts homogenous as possible for your likes.

If you want another route for a super lightweight build, I would look at the 2A Xanthos receiver sets and work outwards from there.

For BCG designs and QC, I really like the ArmaLite BCG with the firing pin spring that prevents slam-fires, as well as the balanced lugs. I would look at that barrel extension match with maybe a Proof barrel. The chamber needs to be correct for a gas gun (more slop) with ideal leade location for magazine COL-limitations.

Find a quality steel gas block that won’t fit on without press-fit or thermo-fit, or very tight slip fit at the least. You really need to get the gas block alignment correct. Reputable manufacturers do this with different approaches, usually with set-up jigs with a press and a QC process to ensure alignment of the ports. Then the gas tube needs to be aligned as well with the stripped carrier in-position of rest in battery (inverted upper receiver does this).

I really like my feed ramps de-edged, blended, and polished.

I like my bolt worked over to remove sharp edges, chamfered and polished ejector(s), tuned extractor without sharp vampire corners, clean ejector channel, reduced length ejector spring, small diameter firing pin aperture (often call “high pressure” bolts, I think they’re closer to .068” vs .080” off the top of my head), and a carrier that doesn’t leak gas in the bolt tail hole.

The JP SCS recoil system is nice, and conventional set-ups require some knowledge about the differences with the large frame guns. You can have:

1. AR-15 Rifle RET, AR-10 rifle buffer (shorter than AR-15 rifle buffer), AR-10 rifle spring (longer, heavier weight than AR-15 rifle spring)

2. A5 or ArmaLite Mid-length RET, standard-length AR-15 carbine buffer (preferably heavier), AR-10 carbine spring (heavier weight)

3. AR-15 carbine RET, tiny little DPMS AP4 buffer, AR-10 carbine spring

You need to know what pivot pin and takedown pin diameters and lengths are needed for your particular receiver set. Again, same company who supplies their own LPKs is recommended (LaRue provides all of this with the UU kits.)

You’ll see a lot of people who slapped parts together, took some photos, shot some groups that are cherry-picked, with very low round counts from franked-10s, but things usually start to fall apart once you put a round count on them.

Just look at the threads with people who own some high-end AR-10s that are having issues, and then ask yourself, “Can I really do better than that when they have far more experience and specific tooling for this?"

If you like to tinker and learn, have at it.

If you need the rifle to work every time on your hog hunts, it might be prudent to get something factory or as much factory as possible.

I’ve seen plenty of guns that ran well for the first few hundred rounds, then just stopped. That’s pretty common in AR-10s.

 

[Chernobyl]

Well after reading that I’m definitely second guessing a build lol.

 

[trackdonkey]

Just some background: I’ve been dealing with AR-10s/SR-25s and copies for the better part of the past 20 years, in addition to AR-15s since the 1980s.

Reliability is really the top priority and pretty difficult to get dialed-in if you build. Heck, most manufacturers still have regular problems. Some of the best manufacturers had a lot of hiccups and road blocks along the way, especially the pioneers.

Jim Sullivan, who did the draft work scaling down the AR-15 from the AR-10 at ArmaLite in the late 1950s, said for some reasons they could never figure out, the AR-10 was never as reliable as the AR-15, even though the daddy had a head start on the baby of several years.

After working on these things, competing with them, troubleshooting them, and trying to keep track of all the variations along the way of living through the new wave of large frame guns (that launched with the SR-25 in the late 1980s), I’ve taken quite a few notes on what seems to work and what doesn’t.

A general rule you might want to consider when taking the builder’s approach (the most prone to reliability and accuracy issues), is to source as many parts from a reputable company that has been building them and standing by them for a long time.

If you get a drop-in barrel from Company A, a BCG from Co. R, receivers from Co. D, gas tube from the usual sources, gas block from Amazon, buffer from here, spring from there, a 6061 RET, an LPK meant for AR-15s, etc. etc., it’s going to be a constant project just getting the parts replaced with ones that will function.

Since there is no TDP and industry standard for large frame guns, critical parts have been known to not fit so well together, and you get:

* Bolt lugs smashing into or shearing against extension teeth.
* Carrier rails smashing into RET boss threads in the lower, even when the correct buffer length, RET, and action spring are used.
* Gas rings that get shredded in poorly-machined bolt bores in the carrier
* Charge handles that don’t fit properly.
* Gas ports drilled too large
* Gas blocks too large for the journal for a loose slip-fit and insufficient gas seal
* Nitrided carrier keys that eat gas tube flanges
* YFS gas key fasteners
* Incorrect firing pin materials and hardness (tips break, cups form, primers get blanked or pierced)
* Incorrect gas system lengths (ArmaLite RLGS vs AR-15 RLGS with mismatched tubes)
* Bolt catches that break, especially when suppressed or with heavy buffers and large gas ports
* LPKs with AR-15 mag catches without enough threaded shaft for the mag release button

I could go on. Anyway, I really like to use as many parts from under the same roof from a great company.

The easy answer for a build is to go with the LaRue large frame kit and keep as many of the parts homogenous as possible for your likes.

If you want another route for a super lightweight build, I would look at the 2A Xanthos receiver sets and work outwards from there.

For BCG designs and QC, I really like the ArmaLite BCG with the firing pin spring that prevents slam-fires, as well as the balanced lugs. I would look at that barrel extension match with maybe a Proof barrel. The chamber needs to be correct for a gas gun (more slop) with ideal leade location for magazine COL-limitations.

Find a quality steel gas block that won’t fit on without press-fit or thermo-fit, or very tight slip fit at the least. You really need to get the gas block alignment correct. Reputable manufacturers do this with different approaches, usually with set-up jigs with a press and a QC process to ensure alignment of the ports. Then the gas tube needs to be aligned as well with the stripped carrier in-position of rest in battery (inverted upper receiver does this).

I really like my feed ramps de-edged, blended, and polished.

I like my bolt worked over to remove sharp edges, chamfered and polished ejector(s), tuned extractor without sharp vampire corners, clean ejector channel, reduced length ejector spring, small diameter firing pin aperture (often call “high pressure” bolts, I think they’re closer to .068” vs .080” off the top of my head), and a carrier that doesn’t leak gas in the bolt tail hole.

The JP SCS recoil system is nice, and conventional set-ups require some knowledge about the differences with the large frame guns. You can have:

1. AR-15 Rifle RET, AR-10 rifle buffer (shorter than AR-15 rifle buffer), AR-10 rifle spring (longer, heavier weight than AR-15 rifle spring)

2. A5 or ArmaLite Mid-length RET, standard-length AR-15 carbine buffer (preferably heavier), AR-10 carbine spring (heavier weight)

3. AR-15 carbine RET, tiny little DPMS AP4 buffer, AR-10 carbine spring

You need to know what pivot pin and takedown pin diameters and lengths are needed for your particular receiver set. Again, same company who supplies their own LPKs is recommended (LaRue provides all of this with the UU kits.)

You’ll see a lot of people who slapped parts together, took some photos, shot some groups that are cherry-picked, with very low round counts from franked-10s, but things usually start to fall apart once you put a round count on them.

Just look at the threads with people who own some high-end AR-10s that are having issues, and then ask yourself, “Can I really do better than that when they have far more experience and specific tooling for this?"

If you like to tinker and learn, have at it.

If you need the rifle to work every time on your hog hunts, it might be prudent to get something factory or as much factory as possible.

I’ve seen plenty of guns that ran well for the first few hundred rounds, then just stopped. That’s pretty common in AR-10s.

Lot of good info there. Not a LaRue fan. But I agree with this: "If you want another route for a super lightweight build, I would look at the 2A Xanthos receiver sets and work outwards from there."

V7 isn't a big brand yet, but the founder was the lead tech at Noveske for a while, if that matters; I've read elsewhere on this site that they're putting together fantastic rifles. I don't have any of his stuff, personally; but if I were building an ULW 6.5CM I'd go with 2a and V7.

Good luck.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Lots of guys say build but very few run them hard and the internet is a graveyard of posts from guys asking why their homebuilt gun doesnt work.

It can be done if you have the knowledge tools and experience but at the end of the day it is a crapshoot of dissimilar parts that may or may not work well together.

I have been building guns for over 20 years and for anything hard use, i stick to a few brand factory guns. The systems are vetted and proven. I dont have the time or money to do statisticially significant testing on random combinations of parts to ensure reliability and durrability over the guns life cycle.

The large frame ar is a trap and most are better off buying a quality factory gun.

The mentioned uu kits are the best value on the market but i like lmt for modularity and better confirmed durrability.

 

[trackdonkey]

Lots of guys say build but very few run them hard and the internet is a graveyard of posts from guys asking why their homebuilt gun doesnt work.

It can be done if you have the knowledge tools and experience but at the end of the day it is a crapshoot of dissimilar parts that may or may not work well together.

I have been building guns for over 20 years and for anything hard use, i stick to a few brand factory guns. The systems are vetted and proven. I dont have the time or money to do statisticially significant testing on random combinations of parts to ensure reliability and durrability over the guns life cycle.

The large frame ar is a trap and most are better off buying a quality factory gun.

The mentioned uu kits are the best value on the market but i like lmt for modularity and better confirmed durrability.

Agree. LMT makes great stuff.

Shop | Lewis Machine & Tool Company

This weapon is built with the LMT® patented Monolithic Rail Platform, MRP®. The only true monolithic rail platform, milled from a single solid piece of

lmtdefense.com

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Unfortunatley this is the worst time to try and buy lmt anything. That ship sailed and its going to be a long time before shit goes back to normal.

 

[trackdonkey]

Unfortunatley this is the worst time to try and buy lmt anything. That ship sailed and its going to be a long time before shit goes back to normal.

I have a BCG on order -- expected delivery is June. Lol.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

June 2034. Lol

I have had a barrel on order for 6 months so who knows when it will come in.

 

[oniak]

Assembling a large frame AR platform from parts made by various manufacturers is not something I would recommend for your first large frame AR. Usually works just fine for small frame ARs. But, this is often not the case with a large frame platform.

 

[iktomi]

LRRPF52's list shows a chunk of considerations...

Just some background: I’ve been dealing with AR-10s/SR-25s and copies for the better part of the past 20 years, in addition to AR-15s since the 1980s.

Reliability is really the top priority and pretty difficult to get dialed-in if you build. Heck, most manufacturers still have regular problems. Some of the best manufacturers had a lot of hiccups and road blocks along the way, especially the pioneers.

Jim Sullivan, who did the draft work scaling down the AR-15 from the AR-10 at ArmaLite in the late 1950s, said for some reasons they could never figure out, the AR-10 was never as reliable as the AR-15, even though the daddy had a head start on the baby of several years.

After working on these things, competing with them, troubleshooting them, and trying to keep track of all the variations along the way of living through the new wave of large frame guns (that launched with the SR-25 in the late 1980s), I’ve taken quite a few notes on what seems to work and what doesn’t.

A general rule you might want to consider when taking the builder’s approach (the most prone to reliability and accuracy issues), is to source as many parts from a reputable company that has been building them and standing by them for a long time.

If you get a drop-in barrel from Company A, a BCG from Co. R, receivers from Co. D, gas tube from the usual sources, gas block from Amazon, buffer from here, spring from there, a 6061 RET, an LPK meant for AR-15s, etc. etc., it’s going to be a constant project just getting the parts replaced with ones that will function.

Since there is no TDP and industry standard for large frame guns, critical parts have been known to not fit so well together, and you get:

* Bolt lugs smashing into or shearing against extension teeth.
* Carrier rails smashing into RET boss threads in the lower, even when the correct buffer length, RET, and action spring are used.
* Gas rings that get shredded in poorly-machined bolt bores in the carrier
* Charge handles that don’t fit properly.
* Gas ports drilled too large
* Gas blocks too large for the journal for a loose slip-fit and insufficient gas seal
* Nitrided carrier keys that eat gas tube flanges
* YFS gas key fasteners
* Incorrect firing pin materials and hardness (tips break, cups form, primers get blanked or pierced)
* Incorrect gas system lengths (ArmaLite RLGS vs AR-15 RLGS with mismatched tubes)
* Bolt catches that break, especially when suppressed or with heavy buffers and large gas ports
* LPKs with AR-15 mag catches without enough threaded shaft for the mag release button

I could go on. Anyway, I really like to use as many parts from under the same roof from a great company.

The easy answer for a build is to go with the LaRue large frame kit and keep as many of the parts homogenous as possible for your likes.

If you want another route for a super lightweight build, I would look at the 2A Xanthos receiver sets and work outwards from there.

For BCG designs and QC, I really like the ArmaLite BCG with the firing pin spring that prevents slam-fires, as well as the balanced lugs. I would look at that barrel extension match with maybe a Proof barrel. The chamber needs to be correct for a gas gun (more slop) with ideal leade location for magazine COL-limitations.

Find a quality steel gas block that won’t fit on without press-fit or thermo-fit, or very tight slip fit at the least. You really need to get the gas block alignment correct. Reputable manufacturers do this with different approaches, usually with set-up jigs with a press and a QC process to ensure alignment of the ports. Then the gas tube needs to be aligned as well with the stripped carrier in-position of rest in battery (inverted upper receiver does this).

I really like my feed ramps de-edged, blended, and polished.

I like my bolt worked over to remove sharp edges, chamfered and polished ejector(s), tuned extractor without sharp vampire corners, clean ejector channel, reduced length ejector spring, small diameter firing pin aperture (often call “high pressure” bolts, I think they’re closer to .068” vs .080” off the top of my head), and a carrier that doesn’t leak gas in the bolt tail hole.

The JP SCS recoil system is nice, and conventional set-ups require some knowledge about the differences with the large frame guns. You can have:

1. AR-15 Rifle RET, AR-10 rifle buffer (shorter than AR-15 rifle buffer), AR-10 rifle spring (longer, heavier weight than AR-15 rifle spring)

2. A5 or ArmaLite Mid-length RET, standard-length AR-15 carbine buffer (preferably heavier), AR-10 carbine spring (heavier weight)

3. AR-15 carbine RET, tiny little DPMS AP4 buffer, AR-10 carbine spring

You need to know what pivot pin and takedown pin diameters and lengths are needed for your particular receiver set. Again, same company who supplies their own LPKs is recommended (LaRue provides all of this with the UU kits.)

You’ll see a lot of people who slapped parts together, took some photos, shot some groups that are cherry-picked, with very low round counts from franked-10s, but things usually start to fall apart once you put a round count on them.

Just look at the threads with people who own some high-end AR-10s that are having issues, and then ask yourself, “Can I really do better than that when they have far more experience and specific tooling for this?"

If you like to tinker and learn, have at it.

If you need the rifle to work every time on your hog hunts, it might be prudent to get something factory or as much factory as possible.

I’ve seen plenty of guns that ran well for the first few hundred rounds, then just stopped. That’s pretty common in AR-10s.

Due to to the pressure curves of 6.5s vs 308s, they can be even more sensitive to part selection and tune.

If you build for the sake of building, it can be super fun (and super expensive swapping parts as you learn from your mistakes).

It is not like putting together a 5.56, where lots of parts work well together... with lots of different ammo, ect.

My 'reliable' 6.5 gassers typically end up tuned to one projectile, with one powder, one suppressor. (Load development and tune are typically the same process.)

 

[LRRPF52]

I will say that my ArmaLite AR-10T (Eagle Arms EA-10 back then) was reliable right out of the gate, and even the carbines I’ve seen in high volume have been reliable. Under the hood, there are quite a few differences between the ArmaLite rifles and what’s on most of the market.

When Hk set out to upgrade their XM4 prototypes into the 416, they took a similar approach that ArmaLite did with their AR-10 BCG design with the spring-loaded firing pin to prevent slam-fires, since the piston gun is gassed way more than the normal Stoner Internal Expansion system. That transferred over to the Hk417 and MR762 as well.

The 1996 ArmaLite AR-10 is a reverse-engineered SR-25 that ran on modified M-14 mags due to the restrictions on new manufacture of mags under the Clinton/Biden/Feinstein 1994 Assault Weapons Ban (which expired in 2004). ArmaLite improved the design of the BCG in a few ways.

When DPMS introduced the LR-308 in 2004, it was basically a copy of the SR-25’s BCG and barrel extension at the core, with a cheap-feeling receiver set where the upper had a really high profile rail, no ejection port door, and no spent case deflector. It was made to be compatible with SR-25 mags, but shipped with these weird translucent 10rd polymer mags that weren’t well-engineered with the overall system, because the bolt lugs would shave material off of the feed lips.

They updated the design more with the AP4, but there were different receiver heights on the AP4 even, which made the after-market attempts to produce railed handguards for the rifles a pain. Just within the LR-308/AP4 SKUs, there were 3 different receiver rail heights.

There were all different kinds of designs popping-up at this time, including American Spirit Arms, CMMGs that took G3 mags, Bushmaster with a licensed design from Rock River that fed from FAL mags called the BAR-10, and an expanding SKU list from KAC and ArmaLite.

DPMS dominated the market with the lowest price point and volume, while cutting corners on quality, with reamers run past acceptable life, weak extractors, aluminum gas blocks (disaster), cheap polymer furniture, mass-produced chromoly barrels with heavy contours to deal with erratic grouping from heat, and their expertise in making small parts for most of the industry.

As we’ve moved into other volume sales approach companies, they have gravitated to DPMS’s same strategy, only pushing the prices even lower. So we’ve seen more of a race to the bottom while multiple start-ups and machine shops (who made quality parts for known companies over the years) have stepped into the more discerning customer market who has an eye for quality.

This is where a lot of the billet receiver segment comes from. Shops that made receivers or parts for others, then made their own unique billet sets, then expanded into complete rifles by sourcing barrels, BCGs, LPKs, RETs, and furniture, usually with their own handguard designs. Along the way, ArmaLite went to the SR-25 magazine and an added forward assist with the AR-10A (not to be confused with the original ArmaLite/Colt AR-10A).

But very few have really looked at the heart of the gun, done what it takes to understand how to make it run reliably, and nailed-down a core Technical Data Package formula for that. KAC and ArmaLite certainly weren’t going to hand over their TDPs, and both of those companies have been through a lot of high volume, fleet rifle testing.

DPMS finally did that when they wiped the slate clean and built the GII up from scratch. They started out with their product manager saying, “Why don’t we make a rifle that actually works.” This was over 10 years into their LR-308, AP4, LR-260, LR-338, LR-308L sales. They built a fleet of 10 prototype GII rifles, and ran a 100,000rd pyramid test through them. Every time something failed, they stopped, analyzed it, fixed it across the fleet, and continued until they had rifles that would meet a certain mean time between stoppage.

Then they handed the design to DPMS production and they did everything in their power to make the margins as unreliable as the LR-308 and AP4, while saddling most of the SKUs with the worst furniture choices (heavy quad rail handgurds, cheap glacier guards). To their credit, they coordinated with after-market companies to make GII-specific handguards before their release at SHOT, so that things were lined-up for that in-advance.

For a large frame builder, not only are you going to face the labyrinthine minefield of trying to get parts that will fit and work correctly together initially, but run reliably over the life of the rifle.

In many ways, the market has gravitated to certain loose standards with BCGs, barrel extension, LPKs, pins, barrel nut threads, gas system lengths, but there still isn’t a standard data package where every manufacturer can look at bore center and index everything else off of that. We basically have a series of companies that bought receiver sets and complete rifles as references without having drawings to cross-check all the call-outs, then did their best guess or direct copies without knowing how much tolerance there was across the critical dimensions.

They also don’t have the spec sheets and materials lists with detailed processes to reference, so they just figure they can duplicate what the materials are on the AR-15, “since it’s the same design anyway”. It has basically been the same old case of the kids who didn’t study in class trying to sit next to the kid with glasses on finals, not knowing if he really knows what he’s doing, peeking over at some of his answers and copying them, just hoping to at least scrape by. They know they’re not going to score well, but just hoping not to fail.

From an engineering standpoint, it’s a totally different design than the AR-15 because of the propellant volume, projectile weights, chamber pressure, bore volume, and reciprocating mass weight. Yes, you can get away with using a lot of the same materials and processes, but you need testing to make sure it works.

The low price point parts companies use you, the customer, as their beta and follow-on beta testers because hundreds of thousands of rounds with engineering team supervision of fleet testing costs a lot of money. Thats why PSA is already onto PA-10 Gen 3.

When you know that Joe customer will simply slap the parts together and not shoot that much (.308 and 6.5CM are not conducive to high volume), it makes sense from a business standpoint to pump out volume with an acceptable return rate in the margins.

You don’t "waste time" actually testing the returned defective product when you can just send them another one or say you tested it and everything was fine. This is why I lean on proven companies who have a record of performance and back their products. The initial cost of the rifle is not the issue, because you will often end up wasting more time and money on an $800 clunker that doesn’t work or shoot well, vs a $2000-$4000 performer.

 

[rpoL98]

if you go with a Faxon 6.5CM barrel in the DPMS pattern, you will need to get a Armalite AR-10 gas tube. Faxon uses the Armalite AR-10 gas-length gas port locations. There's 2 standards: Armalite AR-10, or regular AR-15 gas lengths, for the large frame AR barrels. The Armalite AR-10 gas tubes are about 3/8" longer than their AR-15 counterparts. Further confusing the issue. the Armalite AR-10 carbine gas tube corresponds to the AR-15 mid-gas, although 3/8" longer. Armalite AR-10 rifle length corresponds to AR-15 rifle, again, 3/8" longer.

I get my Armalite AR-10 gas tubes either from Armalite directly (often out-of-stock), or from Fulton.

just a couple more nuggets of information. You collect enough of these nuggets of information, you can avoid the pitfalls outlined by others.

 

[LRRPF52]

if you go with a Faxon 6.5CM barrel in the DPMS pattern, you will need to get a Armalite AR-10 gas tube. Faxon uses the Armalite AR-10 gas-length gas port locations. There's 2 standards: Armalite AR-10, or regular AR-15 gas lengths, for the large frame AR barrels. The Armalite AR-10 gas tubes are about 3/8" longer than their AR-15 counterparts. Further confusing the issue. the Armalite AR-10 carbine gas tube corresponds to the AR-15 mid-gas, although 3/8" longer. Armalite AR-10 rifle length corresponds to AR-15 rifle, again, 3/8" longer.

I get my Armalite AR-10 gas tubes either from Armalite directly (often out-of-stock), or from Fulton.

just a couple more nuggets of information. You collect enough of these nuggets of information, you can avoid the pitfalls outlined by others.

Yup. There are also companies who cut their shoulders and gas port lengths at ArmaLite’s longer position, but advertise their barrels as DPMS compatible/DPMS pattern. They might have meant the barrel extension, who knows.

ArmaLite did the gas system longer, since there was a longer delta ring on their AR10A2 rifles with OD green A2 handguards.

I’ve seen DIY builds that have used a lot of quality components, worked initially, then started short-stroking because they had standard AR-15 length gas tubes with an ArmaLite gas port location from manufacturers who said it was DPMS compatible. ArmaLite tube and steel gas block fixed that issue rather quick.

 

[trackdonkey]

Another thought: you could always reach out to GA Precision to see if they wanted to build this for you. Have some interaction with them -- maybe some input. They build their GAP-10 in 6.5.

GAP-10 G2

Super Accurate Semi-Auto-- Upper, Lower, and Handguard manufactured for us by Seekins Precision.

www.gaprecision.net