6.5 creedmoor reloading issue (groups suck)

S

srhines67

Private
Minuteman
Jun 28, 2020
8
1
#1
Hello, if anyone knows of a newer thread I can move my question.



New to the forum but have been on here for years. I wanted to check for any shared experiences. I am running a 28" Criterion 1 in 8 twist and H4350 in my new 6.5CM. Brass is Lapua and Starline. My new Criterion barrel is very fast after 250 rounds and I can run H140 ELDMs at 2850 with zero pressure signs at 41 grains. Full length sizing with both Redding type S and Hornady full length.



Finding a repeatable sub 1/2 inch group has been a challenge. I expect more:) I have experimented with seating from lands to .020 jump. I'm running between .400 and .800 on group size with the avg being above .600 inches at 100yds.



Have several rifles that I have tuned to shoot 1/4 inch 5 shot groups. I use, OCW, Satterly..I've reloaded a fair amount which means I know enough to not blow myself up now:)



Is there some secret to finding optimal seating depth with high BC bullets? They seem really fussy...Berger 144, Sierra 142, Hornady 140. So far the H140 has been the best shooter but I'm still averaging about .6 inch 5 shot groups at 2850fps-ish. I can take the barrel off this rifle, slap on my 20 practical barrel and shoot in the .3s all day. Same everything except barrel, bolt head and caliber.



Again, I have worked up my H4350/H140ELDM loads from 40 through 41.7 grains with different seating depths. I am not finding the 5 shot groups I want. 3 shot groups are fine, but we all know the flyer or wacky shot happens on shot 4 or 5. Murphy's Law. And that is the strange thing. Even tried factory ammo in H140 and H147 and got similar results. One or two .5 - .6 inch groups and then the next will be 1.2 inches. I've had several ask if its my shooting. No. Too much bench time. It's just not.



Maybe I should just step down into the 39 grain range with the H4350 and drop the velocity and see if I can find a node that is both wide and consistent in the 2700 fps range.



Criterion makes good stuff - I figured by now I would be shooting in the mid .3s for five shots groups. That's usually where I end up after some tuning fun.



Any opinions/thoughts out there? Seems hard to tune compared to other rifles. Geez, I have 4 ARs that shoot tighter groups than my 6.5CM.





Thank you
 
#4
@918v - Current COAL for my h140 is 2.857 . However, since I am running single shot only I use BTOG at 2.223 and jump from there. If I drop to 2.830 COAL that's an instant .027k jump. Sounds like a lot???

@Rocketmandb Started at 40 grains of H4350. Found a node on the way up between 41 adn 41.4 where the velocity didn't move. It jumps again at 41.7. Seemed like a stable place to land. Also, no pressure signs on cases or heavy bolt lift. I got a few teaser groups that were right at .4 inches but they were't repeatable. Mostly, I would get 4 shots in tight and one major flyer when I retried those best loads. Turned necks too.

Usually, when I see 3 or4 tight shots and a flyer I've found its a jam or jump issue. But, that has not worked for me here this time.
 
#6
@Keivins750 - thank you for the info. I have shot the smk 142s with similar results as the H140ELDM. However, I have heard that with the loss of some BC with the smk 140 you get a much more forgiving OGIVE. What size 5 shot groups are you seeing?
 
#7
Top group is same components but with 42.0 RL17
Bottom group is as written below the group. Both are 5 shot groups
20200806_002220.jpg
 
#12
srhines67 said:
Nice. I'm not far from that. If I can get it there time to go do some F Class... I may back off to 2750 just to see if I can find a good node..
Click to expand...

Before arbitrarily picking a speed to play with, I'd recommend running another quick ladder. It's always possible that a flat spot was just one round on the bottom being a little hot, and one on the top being a little slow.

The nice thing about ladders is that they are quick and easy to do, but a single ladder does not necessarily tell you the definitive story.
 
#14
My rifle is stock, but I have been able to put down some 5 shot groups measuring just .474" across, so I would assume with that barrel you could do better. I'm finding some weird things using Nosler CC's and SMK's in 140. Noslers .010" and .020" off the lands, just plain suck. .030", under 1/2" all day. SMK's anything over .020" off the lands, groups go to hell fast. .010-.020" no difference and best was .474".
 
#16
srhines67 said:
@918v - Current COAL for my h140 is 2.857 . However, since I am running single shot only I use BTOG at 2.223 and jump from there. If I drop to 2.830 COAL that's an instant .027k jump. Sounds like a lot???

@Rocketmandb Started at 40 grains of H4350. Found a node on the way up between 41 adn 41.4 where the velocity didn't move. It jumps again at 41.7. Seemed like a stable place to land. Also, no pressure signs on cases or heavy bolt lift. I got a few teaser groups that were right at .4 inches but they were't repeatable. Mostly, I would get 4 shots in tight and one major flyer when I retried those best loads. Turned necks too.

Usually, when I see 3 or4 tight shots and a flyer I've found its a jam or jump issue. But, that has not worked for me here this time.
Click to expand...
I'm shooting the 140s in the .25 range at 40k and 45k with two different loads. One low and one just under pressure.
Don't be afraid to jump. All that you gotta jam or throw them away is bullshit. Even Bryan Litz says Berger Hybrids shoot either <20k or >60k
 
#17
I'm also uncertain what you have going on with different brass manufacturers and listed two different FL dies as being used? Or is the Type S the neck sizing style and using the Hornady as a body die? Or just run of the mill trying different stuff? Overall I believe the lack of jump is where you are getting hung up but thought it was odd you listed different tools / components.
 
#18
Thanks to all for the replies. Great info. I have tried the redding type s die and hornady fl sizer independently. Almost all of my work has been done with Starline brass but I just got some Lapua in which I will try out eventually.

With the type s die i can control neck tension a bit better. Just experimenting a bit but for this situation I'm not mixing dies and/or brass especially in a single load workup. Too many variables.

I am going to do another ladder/velocity test, check for nodes and reconsider jumping more than .020 from the lands. I have heard Litz talk about jumping as well.

Likely for now, this comment sums it up for me....

"I'm shooting the 140s in the .25 range at 40k and 45k with two different loads. One low and one just under pressure.
Don't be afraid to jump. All that you gotta jam or throw them away is bullshit. Even Bryan Litz says Berger Hybrids shoot either <20k or >60k "

Time to head back to the range...
 
#19
Rocketmandb said:
Before arbitrarily picking a speed to play with, I'd recommend running another quick ladder. It's always possible that a flat spot was just one round on the bottom being a little hot, and one on the top being a little slow.

The nice thing about ladders is that they are quick and easy to do, but a single ladder does not necessarily tell you the definitive story.
Click to expand...

that seems to be the root of my inconsistencies in my testings. my powder throws are killing my SDs and ESs
 
#21
AnimalMother224 said:
thats insane! I tested out to .080 jump and I was compressed with 39.8 of H4350 in Starline brass
Click to expand...
I was able to test 41.6 out to 95k. Really just stopped because I didn't forsee jumping that far and found a node at 45k. 42.7 I was only able to go out to 55k and was pretty heavily compressed. That loads node is 35k. Depends on the freebore in the rifle. .120" in his rifle might be the same CBTO of .60" in yours.
 
#24
srhines67 said:
With the type s die i can control neck tension a bit better.
Click to expand...

Full disclosure: I've never used Starline brass, so can't comment on its consistency.

With that said, even with my Lapua and ADG brass I use a mandrel after sizing to get the necks consistent. If you don't neck turn (I don't), then your neck tension varies with the consistency of the brass neck thickness.
 
#25
Hello,



Great feedback. I wanted to respond to a few questions to see if I can learn something. A lot of great info.



I have only used H4350 as this is my first 6.5 CM and I have only had the 6.5CM for a little over a month. Once I do a bit more testing I might try a different powder. My experience has been that you might see a small change in group size with a new powder but I'm not likely to see a reduction by 50% in group size with a different powder with a similar burn rate. I've been down that road and I've generally found that if you are shooting one of the top powders for a cartridge then a big problem like my group sizes and flyers is likey bullet choice, seating depth or charge or my barrel just sucks. Feel free to debate. Won't hurt my feelings. I know less every time I hit the reloading press:)



I have two dies for resizing. I have tried fl sizing with the redding type s and the hornady standard fl size die. Never have mixed dies in a test group. Just looking to control neck tension better with the type s, and a mandrel. I don't use the expander ball with the type s. I'm not saying it's bad, just not my preference.



The way I arrived at roughly 2850fps as a node was that my velocity was flat from about 40 to 41.4. I thought about going higher but I did start to ask why push it harder. But, maybe there is another solid node up there. Won't hurt to try. My gut could be wrong but I've pushed rifles in the past hard enough to pop primers which I admit is not smart. A rifle is a machine that was designed to do x amount of work. If you go very far past that you just stress the system. But, I think it's worth seeing if there is another node above or around 41.7. It is not my end goal to hot rod this thing.



I have only shot Starline brass with small primer / CCI450s. There are a ton of shooters who swear by the small primer brass in the 6.5 and 6mm variants for accuracy. Many will argue over the small vs. large primer 6.5 brass. I don't have any info to suggest that it makes enough difference to cause flyers all the time and make my groups way larger than they should be. I am just looking for consistent groups and would like to see .4" or a little less. Plan to shoot long range varmint and F class with this.



Case capacity with the starline and my setup is not an issue. I can get at least to 43g without being compressed. I would love to test it out if someone wants. I have Lapua brass but have not introduced it into the testing. Too many variables and too many people getting great results with starline to change that now. Again, if I was shooting .5" groups and I wanted .3" groups I would make a brass change or powder change. I am not even close to that right now.



I have shot groups with box hornady factory 140 and 147 ELDMs and they were .5" to over 1" and very inconsistent (flyers). Both had considerable jump and both shot the same as my hand loads that I load within 20k of the lands. The factory loads just cost a lot more. Again, groups were about the same anyways so I didn't learn anything from shooting the factory hornady loads. My Criterion barrel doesn't like them.



The two bullets I have tested the most are the H140 and SMK142. I got identical results with both. Even my velocities are identical with both. That is the only thing that has been consistent so far with this barrel...my groups are not consistent.



I turned 30 necks of the starline down to 13k and shot groups with that brass hoping to find a magic bullet. No change at all with turned necks.



I anneal every other reload. Brass lasts longer.



I throw powder with 1 of 3 of my RCBS chargemasters. In a single reload group, I do not mix powder throws from different chargemasters. The scales drift. Mostly a personal thing.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



OK. Here is what I've got.



I probably need to consider finding another node below where I started and maybe above where I am now. Time for a better ladder test. Before, I threw out 2750 as a lower velocity but I wasn't being deterministic. The node will be where it will be. I'm gong to shoot another ladder and get a more thorough node analysis both lower and higher than where I am at now. Given that I'm new to the cartridge, I was just being careful not to push it too hard. but I get the point. My 20P with a match barrel, comes to life at ~3900 fps. It likes to be run hot if you want those very tiny groups. I have experienced that with several rifles actually. With this 6.5, I would rather have a decent group and really stable velocity. It's future mission is 1000 yards.



Once I get into a node that I want to explore, I'm gong to try out jumping further out. After reading everything twice here, jumping is the one thing I have Not explored. If I do jump out to 40k or 50k is it OK to move 5k at a time? I usually do 3k increments but that's going to take a lot of rounds.



Also, any suggestions on charge start and stop points with the ladder test. Maybe start at 39 grains and take it up to 42.5 unless I start to see signs of pressure? Any suggestions on increments. Votes for .3 or .5 grain increments? I always do .3 but I'm wondering if it's too small of a change in charge weight.



Once I find my nodes, time to test the jump. I suppose I could start at 20k and do 25, 30, 35, 40...out to 50ish. Kind of wondering how far to take this.



thx always...
 
#26
Can you take your reloading gear to the range with you rather than load up a bunch of random ammo before you go?

Are you sure it’s not the shooter causing wonky groups?

Load up and shoot 3xladder and MV test round robbin style at whatever jump seems to be the consensus for your projectile (you will need to do your own research on that one as I don’t know what they generally like) on a BIG piece of board at 200-300 yards will give you more data than a single round per charge weight.

Once you have a solid node then start playing with seating depth (again at 200-300 yards) and KEEP GOING! until you find a depth or range of depths that shrink down to where they should be.

Personally I would choose a slightly looser group over a large seating depth than a depth that needs to be chased every 50-100 rounds to stay in tune. Keep an eye on your MV and adjust powder load if required to stay in your velocity node as you go.

You’ll find something that works as long as you are methodical and consistent in what you are doing.

Edit: Just remembered you said F-class, so you will need to chase your lands to stay competitive.
 
#28
@Shootin Stuff. You got it. That's the next step. I can't load at the range. Don't have portable press. I might have to take a couple of trys at it. But, you are right. Have to do the complete analysis over at distance.

I'm not causing the difference between .4 and 1.2 inch groups. If I shoot 6 - 12 groups with an accurate rifle, I average in the .3s at 100 yards. I get a few in the .1s, and a fair amount in the .2s. If I pull a shot I will have a 1/2 inch group. I love small groups and I'm the weirdo that has almost every target I've shot in the last 4 years.

However, I agree. For this rifle, my goal is .4 to .5 moa with really solid group and vertical consistency for long range competition and that is my goal. This is not a benchrest rifle. I may PM you on some details on how you do your ladder test...

Thanks
 
#29
srhines67 said:
Hello,



Great feedback. I wanted to respond to a few questions to see if I can learn something. A lot of great info.



I have only used H4350 as this is my first 6.5 CM and I have only had the 6.5CM for a little over a month. Once I do a bit more testing I might try a different powder. My experience has been that you might see a small change in group size with a new powder but I'm not likely to see a reduction by 50% in group size with a different powder with a similar burn rate. I've been down that road and I've generally found that if you are shooting one of the top powders for a cartridge then a big problem like my group sizes and flyers is likey bullet choice, seating depth or charge or my barrel just sucks. Feel free to debate. Won't hurt my feelings. I know less every time I hit the reloading press:)



I have two dies for resizing. I have tried fl sizing with the redding type s and the hornady standard fl size die. Never have mixed dies in a test group. Just looking to control neck tension better with the type s, and a mandrel. I don't use the expander ball with the type s. I'm not saying it's bad, just not my preference.



The way I arrived at roughly 2850fps as a node was that my velocity was flat from about 40 to 41.4. I thought about going higher but I did start to ask why push it harder. But, maybe there is another solid node up there. Won't hurt to try. My gut could be wrong but I've pushed rifles in the past hard enough to pop primers which I admit is not smart. A rifle is a machine that was designed to do x amount of work. If you go very far past that you just stress the system. But, I think it's worth seeing if there is another node above or around 41.7. It is not my end goal to hot rod this thing.



I have only shot Starline brass with small primer / CCI450s. There are a ton of shooters who swear by the small primer brass in the 6.5 and 6mm variants for accuracy. Many will argue over the small vs. large primer 6.5 brass. I don't have any info to suggest that it makes enough difference to cause flyers all the time and make my groups way larger than they should be. I am just looking for consistent groups and would like to see .4" or a little less. Plan to shoot long range varmint and F class with this.



Case capacity with the starline and my setup is not an issue. I can get at least to 43g without being compressed. I would love to test it out if someone wants. I have Lapua brass but have not introduced it into the testing. Too many variables and too many people getting great results with starline to change that now. Again, if I was shooting .5" groups and I wanted .3" groups I would make a brass change or powder change. I am not even close to that right now.



I have shot groups with box hornady factory 140 and 147 ELDMs and they were .5" to over 1" and very inconsistent (flyers). Both had considerable jump and both shot the same as my hand loads that I load within 20k of the lands. The factory loads just cost a lot more. Again, groups were about the same anyways so I didn't learn anything from shooting the factory hornady loads. My Criterion barrel doesn't like them.



The two bullets I have tested the most are the H140 and SMK142. I got identical results with both. Even my velocities are identical with both. That is the only thing that has been consistent so far with this barrel...my groups are not consistent.



I turned 30 necks of the starline down to 13k and shot groups with that brass hoping to find a magic bullet. No change at all with turned necks.



I anneal every other reload. Brass lasts longer.



I throw powder with 1 of 3 of my RCBS chargemasters. In a single reload group, I do not mix powder throws from different chargemasters. The scales drift. Mostly a personal thing.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



OK. Here is what I've got.



I probably need to consider finding another node below where I started and maybe above where I am now. Time for a better ladder test. Before, I threw out 2750 as a lower velocity but I wasn't being deterministic. The node will be where it will be. I'm gong to shoot another ladder and get a more thorough node analysis both lower and higher than where I am at now. Given that I'm new to the cartridge, I was just being careful not to push it too hard. but I get the point. My 20P with a match barrel, comes to life at ~3900 fps. It likes to be run hot if you want those very tiny groups. I have experienced that with several rifles actually. With this 6.5, I would rather have a decent group and really stable velocity. It's future mission is 1000 yards.



Once I get into a node that I want to explore, I'm gong to try out jumping further out. After reading everything twice here, jumping is the one thing I have Not explored. If I do jump out to 40k or 50k is it OK to move 5k at a time? I usually do 3k increments but that's going to take a lot of rounds.



Also, any suggestions on charge start and stop points with the ladder test. Maybe start at 39 grains and take it up to 42.5 unless I start to see signs of pressure? Any suggestions on increments. Votes for .3 or .5 grain increments? I always do .3 but I'm wondering if it's too small of a change in charge weight.



Once I find my nodes, time to test the jump. I suppose I could start at 20k and do 25, 30, 35, 40...out to 50ish. Kind of wondering how far to take this.



thx always...
Click to expand...

wait. you had flat FPS from 40 to 41.4? your node stretches 1.4 grains of 4350?

wut?
 
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Reactions: Tokay444
#35
ive gone through it a number of times trying to dial in. I get steady ramps on all my graphs. ive only gotten one plateau between 40 and 40.2 of RL16

im getting flattened primers on every single load of h4350 as low as 38.2 running high 2600's. (4 different primers)

RL16 gives leaves nice rounded edge of all different primers tested.

I think my chamber is just that tight and I need slower powder (why my RL16 loads are superior to H4350, unfortunately its also way dirtier)
 
#36
AnimalMother224 said:
ive gone through it a number of times trying to dial in. I get steady ramps on all my graphs. ive only gotten one plateau between 40 and 40.2 of RL16

im getting flattened primers on every single load of h4350 as low as 38.2 running high 2600's. (4 different primers)

RL16 gives leaves nice rounded edge of all different primers tested.

I think my chamber is just that tight and I need slower powder (why my RL16 loads are superior to H4350, unfortunately its also way dirtier)
Click to expand...

Ya that’s what I’m saying is maybe try an actual Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) development, using the round robing style for group position on the target and not look at velocity.

idk... someone more experienced may be able to help that exact situation
 
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