Range Report 6.5CM 130 vs. 140. Wtf am I missing?

[Luvman]

So I recently picked up a 6.5CM barrel. I don’t reload. I am researching options for ammo to pick up. Comparing listed velocities and BC’s it appears that 130gr ammo is the winner in ballistics.

Plugging numbers in my kestrel I get 8.9mils drop @ 1K for HORNADY 140gr ELDM and 2mils for 10mph wind. (2700fps)

Prime 130gr is 8mils drop @ 1K and 1.85Mils wind at 10mph. (2850 FPS)

I understand these are guesstimates and I will have to get some real world data. However it appears 130gr will be flatter and a touch better in the wind.

Seems conventional wisdom in 6.5CM is to run heavier Bullets. Am I missing something? Do the 140+ gr bullets preform better in the real world? Or is 140gr ELDM just loaded slow?

 

[Niles Coyote]

It's slow, yes. Most of us load 140's somewhere between 2750 & 2830.

 

[stello1001]

I think factory hornady is slightly slow when compared to other offerings. Have you seen how fast people are sending Bergers from their factory offering. Their 140s seem to have MVs at 2800+ depending on rifle, barrel length, etc.

 

[clcustom1911]

You are correct. Factory Prime 130 and Hornady 140 ammo are two separate beasts. The only factory 140 ammo that actually moves at the speed of the reloaded (LOL) is Berger 140. All factory Hornady ELDm ammo is anemic is speed. The only real reason why I do 140+ is because its weight keeps it supersonic for an extra 200-300 yards over the 130.


Oh, and if you have a good 24" barrel from Proof, Bertlien, etc, expect Prime to be moving closer to 2900+

 

[Niles Coyote]

Case in point

 

[Luvman]

My barrel is an AI prefit from Eurooptic. Should be a decent blank. Likely Bartlein.

I had pretty much decided to pick up a case of prime. Seems like the Berger is kinda scarce at the moment.

Does the Berger 135gr Hunter hold up at distance?

I don’t get the chance to shoot past 600 very much so I have stuck with .308 so far. I’m hoping to actually hit past 1K running a 6.5.

 

[Steel head]

I don’t get the chance to shoot past 600 very much so I have stuck with .308 so far. I’m hoping to actually hit past 1K running a 6.5.

With pretty much any decent bullet the 6.5 will easily do 1000.
I run 140 and 147’s for the same reasons as CLC, the extra distance to trans sonic.

If I was only shooting to 1000 almost surely I’d shoot the 130’s.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I run 140 hybrids, here lately mostly the berger ammo. 95% of my shooting is 650 and in at my home range. Seasonally and at another place I make it to 1050 I just don't run that far daily. I haven't tried the 130s in 6.5 creed but ran them for a bit when I still used 6.5x47s. The 140s are better in the wind and carry more energy.

 

[lte82]

They are close for sure. Factory Berger 130s are .288 g7 @ 2920-2940 FPS, and 140s are .310 g7 @ 2800-2820 FPS in my barrel. Virtually same recoil, same wind, but 130s need slightly less elevation even out to 1200. Pick the one that groups the best.

 

[kthomas]

2700 fps is definitely on the slow side. I find the 140 Bergers are very happy being shot around ~2830 fps.

I don't have a strong opinion on 130's vs 140's. So close ballistically that there isn't much practical difference. Shoot whatever your gun likes best, and what you can find available and you are comfortable with. Stick with what works, and learn it inside and out.

 

[Kadams1563]

2830 is where I ran the 140’s. With that being said my barrel was toasted at 2k rounds.

 

[Luvman]

Thanks all for the insight. Got to the range today to get some data. I was shocked that the Hornaday 140ELDM ran faster than the box. They were 2778fps with a SD of 14.5 for 5rds. The Box is listed at 2710. I only shot 1 group of 3rds and it was around 1/2MOA.

I ordered some prime to try and I’ll be watching for Berger to come back in stock.

 

[gigamortis]

I handload Berger 130 hybrids at 2860 pushed by 42.6gr of RL-16 in Starline brass at 2.800” mag length. My brass lasts a long time with this mild load, yet its fast enough to be competitive. I tried exploring at 2900 and up, but groups and SDs opened up. 1000yds for me is 7.8 mils up from a 100yd zero. I am basically at sea level on the east coast.

 

[Nik H]

I posted a note a few days ago stating that there is no Berger 130 OTM that I can find. Thankfully, I have a case or more in reserve. The new PRIME is mighty nice as well so give it a try.

The Berger 140s and the Sparks 140 (Using Hornady's 140 ELD-M) are both faster than the stock Hornady 140 ELD-M cartridge. Both Berger and Sparks shoot with less elevation correction and, in my experience, more accurately at distance.

 

[Niles Coyote]

More data points. 22" JP Enterprise mega maten build. Limited to 3 shots till I'll I get more.

 

[stello1001]

I posted a note a few days ago stating that there is no Berger 130 OTM that I can find. Thankfully, I have a case or more in reserve. The new PRIME is mighty nice as well so give it a try.

The Berger 140s and the Sparks 140 (Using Hornady's 140 ELD-M) are both faster than the stock Hornady 140 ELD-M cartridge. Both Berger and Sparks shoot with less elevation correction and, in my experience, more accurately at distance.

I'm using spark now and liking it so far. For me, factory Berger ammo shot like crap, but spark is doing good, really good.

This is @700 yards. Top left is not part of the group as it wasn't shot with it. Even if it was though, the group is still not bad.

 

[Lunchbox27]

I’m getting 2800-2810 from 3 different lots of Hornady 140 ammo. This is with a 24” Proof and a suppressor, so your numbers seem right.

I say shoot them both, gather chrono data, test at distance and decide.

 

[Luvman]

@stello1001 I saw your thread about the Berger giving you issues. I just ordered some Prime or I would be interested in your left over Berger’s.

I actually picked up this 6.5 barrel from @Nik H. He pointed me towards the Berger and prime for it. He mentioned that the Hornaday shot Ok as well but the others were better. From what I saw at the range yesterday if the Hornaday was just OK then I can’t wait to shoot the others!!!!

 

[Nik H]

@stello1001 I saw your thread about the Berger giving you issues. I just ordered some Prime or I would be interested in your left over Berger’s.

I actually picked up this 6.5 barrel from @Nik H. He pointed me towards the Berger and prime for it. He mentioned that the Hornaday shot Ok as well but the others were better. From what I saw at the range yesterday if the Hornaday was just OK then I can’t wait to shoot the others!!!!

I forgot that you bought my barrel....LMAO. I have to cut back my alcohol consumption

 

[stello1001]

@stello1001 I saw your thread about the Berger giving you issues. I just ordered some Prime or I would be interested in your left over Berger’s.

I actually picked up this 6.5 barrel from @Nik H. He pointed me towards the Berger and prime for it. He mentioned that the Hornaday shot Ok as well but the others were better. From what I saw at the range yesterday if the Hornaday was just OK then I can’t wait to shoot the others!!!!

It's all good. My barrel didn't like factory Berger ammo. I'm sure if I reloaded, I can tune a load to shoot ok with them but I don't reload. Every barrel is different and many claim to shoot tight groups with them. I'll keep shooting Spark because it's actually working out great for me right now so I think I found my go to factory ammo. I'm still going to try prime sometime soon just because. I'm sure you'll find that prime is going to shoot well for you. It's quality ammo.

 

[Runnineh]

Are you guys using small or large primers?

 

[DJL2]

I ask myself the same question all the time (especially looking at, and passing on, the PRIME group buy). It's partly about what your rifle likes, who loads it best. The other part, of course, is the inherent qualities of the bullet...and not all 130/140 are created equal, that's for sure.

I've got a super slow barrel in 6.5 CM. Shooting factory ammo, as you say you will, it's worth noting that what's on the box is definitely not what you get. I throw my MS3 on whenever I shoot into a new box of ammo. The only thing even close to published so far (and the SD/ES winner) has been the Superformance SST (2860 fps) - not a target load, obviously. The Federal GMM 130gn Berger Hybrids, by contrast, chrono'd 2720 fps from my rifle this past weekend (55 F, 60%, 740 feet). The factory ELD-M went @ ~2585 for the 140 and ~2550 for the 147. I think I still need to chrono my Norma 130 stuff.

Anyway, at those velocities, the 140 ELD-M is a dog compared to the Berger. The 147 is OK. The 130 TMK is still an unknown quantity for me - the published BCs just don't look impressive enough to bother with, honestly. Clearly there is at least one powder combination that'll push decent speed from my bbl, I just haven't found it in any loaded ammo but the Superformance. The good/bad news is that it's really hard for me to find anywhere beyond 400 yds to shoot...so I can run Hornady AG 140 OTM at $.75 a round most of the time because it's "good enough."

 

[Bryan marks]

I handload Berger 130 hybrids at 2860 pushed by 42.6gr of RL-16 in Starline brass at 2.800” mag length. My brass lasts a long time with this mild load, yet its fast enough to be competitive. I tried exploring at 2900 and up, but groups and SDs opened up. 1000yds for me is 7.8 mils up from a 100yd zero.

how do you like the starline brass? are you using the small primer? I'm running Hornady brass now I'm wondering if its better and if ill get more reloads out of starline. Thanks.

 

[JMGlasgow]

I shoot Berger 130 AR Hybrids at 2825 and only need to dial 7.7 to 1000. My physical altitude is 6200 and according to 4dof my velocity is still just above 1600fps.

 

[Nik H]

I shoot Berger 130 AR Hybrids at 2825 and only need to dial 7.7 to 1000. My physical altitude is 6200 and according to 4dof my velocity is still just above 1600fps.

That is about my required elevation change at a DA of 1,000 but I get more like 2890 out of the Bergers. My barrel is 26" though and I run a 1:7.5" twist versus the typical 8" twist.

 

[JMGlasgow]

That is out of a 24" 1-8" twist Criterion barrel and suppressor.

 

[samb300]

@Luvman I can’t remember if it was in an Applied Ballistics book or where I saw the math, but AB has some calculated ratios for their bullets. Something like drag factor over weight, or something along those lines. The 105 and 140 Hybrids had the highest ratio, meaning they are the most efficient shape. Not sure where I’m going with this, but I’ve talked to a lot of respected shooters “back in the day when people actually shot 6.5 at PRS matches” and they all shot the 140 Hybrid over the 130. Either stating the 130s had more wind drift than a dope chart said it would, or that 140s were more consistent at 1000yds +.

 

[Luvman]

@Luvman I can’t remember if it was in an Applied Ballistics book or where I saw the math, but AB has some calculated ratios for their bullets. Something like drag factor over weight, or something along those lines. The 105 and 140 Hybrids had the highest ratio, meaning they are the most efficient shape. Not sure where I’m going with this, but I’ve talked to a lot of respected shooters “back in the day when people actually shot 6.5 at PRS matches” and they all shot the 140 Hybrid over the 130. Either stating the 130s had more wind drift than a dope chart said it would, or that 140s were more consistent at 1000yds +.

Sam Thanks!

I picked up some of the new Prime as it was the easiest to get hold of. I’m planning to pick up some Berger 140 when I can find it in stock as well.

I’m hoping my barrel likes the Berger ammo 140 as the brass is more desirable for resale or to send off an have custom ammo made. Of course the Peterson brass that Prime uses is good as well.

My trips to shoot ranges past 600 aren’t as frequent as I’d like so I’ll likely still shoot .308 a lot.

It’s looking like the 140 is my best bet in the real world.

 

[Nik H]

@Luvman Not sure where I’m going with this, but I’ve talked to a lot of respected shooters “back in the day when people actually shot 6.5 at PRS matches” and they all shot the 140 Hybrid over the 130. Either stating the 130s had more wind drift than a dope chart said it would, or that 140s were more consistent at 1000yds +.

As a customer of yours and someone who generally agrees with your perspective, I have to respectfully disagree with some of these comments. No one cartridge (bullet) has a comprehensive advantage under all environmental conditions.

Most competitive shooters that I have spoken with buy ammo in lots so they can optimize it to their rifle under varying environmental conditions. It would be highly impractical to expect that a shooter that competes in a variety of matches is going to fully characterize his barrel with a bunch of different ammo. It is easier to develop solutions around a given cartridge loading and buy enough to get you through a season. Many I have talked to buy a barrel and enough of one type of ammo to use it until the barrel expires.

I don't have those constraints. I don't compete or reload so I characterize a lot of factory ammo in 6.5 CM. It is a fun thing for me to do. I shoot as many different factory offerings under a variety of conditions as possible. I record the environmental conditions, MV values and elevation correction. I compare this all against what my computer says I should have. I use Coldbore and a Kestrel with AB. All of it requires truing to varying degrees.

Where am I going? No bullet is magic. I'll take a PRIME or Berger 130 over any 140 under the right distance/environmental conditions (wind < 7 mph / distance greater than 1,000 yards). They simply work better in both of my AIs in those circumstances. I have shot 130 Bergers and PRIME at 1,300 yards more consistently than any 140 in reasonably calm days. The higher velocity and reduced recoil of the 130s simply improves consistency and wins out for me.

On a windier day at intermediate ranges (600-800 yards) I will shoot Spark or Berger 140s every time.

Knowing your rifle is important. Knowing what it likes and doesn't isn't an easy task. People make it out to be but it does take a bit of work. When you reach that point, it is highly satisfying for obvious reasons

 

[gigamortis]

how do you like the starline brass? are you using the small primer? I'm running Hornady brass now I'm wondering if its better and if ill get more reloads out of starline. Thanks.

I'm on my 5th loading so far on a 100/ct lot of Starline large primer. Primer seating pressure doesn't feel any different than brand new so far. I figured I would start with some Starline just for those lost brass matches. Starline is half the cost of Lapua, but the necks are not annealed out of the box like Lapua. Virgin Starline brass isn't quite as true as virgin Lapua. Neck centers are not necessarily centered with the body of the brass, but 1x firing takes care of this. All I've ever done to virgin Lapua through the years is to just neck size it and load it. With the Starline, you best better anneal first, body size it, and run an expander mandrel to get the neck tension you want before the 1st loading.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

Me, I just split the difference and shoot the Berger ammo with the 135 classic hunter. BC splits the difference between the 130 and 140 as well.

 

[chrome]

Walked down this exact road today at 1000 yards with a 22in 6.5cm. Unfortunately I thought I packed 130gr Prime in my kit today but I didn't, and only shot the factory loads for 140 and 147 Hornady's.

Both 140 and 147 performed. 140s were averaging 2650'ish. FPS. 147gr were running just a tad slower, but only needed 9.6mils of elevation, and I held 1.5-2.0mils for wind with the gusts we had.