6.5x284 with h1000 vs 6.5saum

[dumbbell]

Just humor me guys. I wanted a 6.5 to shoot competitions with, and since i already had a 284 win and brass and dies, i had my gunsmith spin up a 6.5x284. I know they have horrible reputation for barrel life. But my question came about from George Gardner's 6.5 saum with h1000 and the barrel life he was getting out of it. Most people in comps are running their 6.5 bullets between 2750 and 2850fps. My question is then, can the 6.5x284 with h1000 get me in that speed range, and if so, what would be the expected barrel life? If they are getting 3-4000 rounds of half minute barrel life with the 6.5 saum, what should i expect with 10 grains less powder? Thank you in advance for your help. Im just trying to establish a reasonable expectation for barrel life with this caliber and powder. Oh, and i plan on running the 142 smks if that makes a difference. Thanks, Greg

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Greg, Try 51 grains of H1000 and see what you get for Velocity, if its adequate for you you should get great barrel life. I dont expect it to be very fast.

 

[dumbbell]

Well Mr George, you may have just thrown a wrench in my equation, lol. I should know something by the end of the week on velocity. Thank u for your response. I wanted to pm u but hated to bother u

 

[dumbbell]

And I forgot to mention im running a 28 inch bartlein barrel. I know long action and 28 inch barrel don't spell competitive in prs, but I just wanted something to compete with to get started.

 

[dumbbell]

Just an update. Got my barrel today, fired a few rounds thru it to break it in and find max charge. I got 2824fps with 54gr and 2859fps with 55gr of h1000 with 28" barrel. did not see any pressure signs at 56gr but did see a velocity jump, so i quit. Anywho, looks promising. I guess my plan at this point is to run nothing but h1000 in it and see what kind of barrel life i get. Im expecting as good as the 6.5saum or slightly better, but time will tell. I realize that 260 and other 6.5s will do the same velocity with less powder and less barrel. I'm not trying to say this is best, just trying to see if I can get 2850 with the 140s and 3000 plus round barrel life out of the 6.5x284

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Gonna keep an eye on this. Sounds like a great idea.

 

[Papagallos]

I love my 6.5-284. Keep us posted.

 

[turbo54]

Sounds like a winner to me. Seems as though replacing ~H4350/H4831sc with H1000 nets a cartridge less pressure, less velocity and a significantly better barrel life.

I'm still not quite sure how ~2900fps via H1000 achieves better barrel life than ~2900 via H4831sc....but I'll defer to George on that I guess the theory is H1000 burns cooler, so it's gentler on the throat than even a reduced charge of H4350/H4831sc...?

Anyway, ~2900fps from a quality 140gr 6.5mm is nothing to scoff at, and I don't think the 260 or 6.5CM can match it. I know a lot of folks claim ~2850 from their 260 - but I sure haven't seen that personally, unless you really lean on them. I've generally seen more like ~2800.

Keep us posted! Next year this time you'll be telling us about the short action 6mm you're setting up!

 

[triceratops3]

Anyway, ~2900fps from a quality 140gr 6.5mm is nothing to scoff at, and I don't think the 260 or 6.5CM can match it. I know a lot of folks claim ~2850 from their 260 - but I sure haven't seen that personally, unless you really lean on them. I've generally seen more like ~2800.

Keep us posted! Next year this time you'll be telling us about the short action 6mm you're setting up!

I thought the 6.5 SAUM got around 3000+ with 140's? (3200 IIRC) and figured the 6.5-284 would get close to 3000 probably.

Not saying my 6.5 Creed gets 2875fps but when I set the velocity on JBM to 2875, it's pretty damn close to what I see in real life. I've never actually chronod my Creed.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[rubicon06on33s]

I am going to experiment with H1000 and Retumbo. So far shooting H4350 and max velocity was 2750 before I started seeing pressure signs. I am shooting the Savage LRH with 140 Berger Vld Hunting

 

[GONE BAD]

I'll just throw this out there. I've been running a 6.5-284 Norma for about 1 1/2 years now and run it pretty hot. My load I settled on was 58grs. Retumbo with cci 210M primers and am getting just over 3000 fps @ 235' elev. at 45* and that is with 140vld's. With over 450 rds. down the tube I've had to cut the charge back to 57grs. with same MV. This is with an old savage 110 action with a 1-8 26" Shilen. I'm running the 140's at .010 off the lands with coal of 3.156". A couple of things to consider are 1. I haven't checked the throat with a bore scope. 2. my ability to shoot consistent small groups ( less than .500). So I really can't say how well its holding up. My decision to run Retumbo was hoping the slower powder would extend the barrel life. Just some of my own info.

 

[scudzuki]

I saw 2900+ FPS with 140 gr Nosler CCs out of my 24" barreled .260 using IMR 7828 and no pressure signs.
I did not pursue it since I have plenty of AA4350 but I was interested to see what it would do. Lee's 12th edition lists I7828 with the highest .260/140 gr. velocities, and it is not exaggerating in my experience.

Joe

 

[vonbalkenbush]

I'll just throw this out there. I've been running a 6.5-284 Norma for about 1 1/2 years now and run it pretty hot. My load I settled on was 58grs. Retumbo with cci 210M primers and am getting just over 3000 fps @ 235' elev. at 45* and that is with 140vld's. With over 450 rds. down the tube I've had to cut the charge back to 57grs. with same MV. This is with an old savage 110 action with a 1-8 26" Shilen. I'm running the 140's at .010 off the lands with coal of 3.156". A couple of things to consider are 1. I haven't checked the throat with a bore scope. 2. my ability to shoot consistent small groups ( less than .500). So I really can't say how well its holding up. My decision to run Retumbo was hoping the slower powder would extend the barrel life. Just some of my own info.

H1000 and Retumbo have only slightly different burn rates. They are very close. What I want to know is if you are running a repeater with a COAL of 3.156"?

 

[GONE BAD]

H1000 and Retumbo have only slightly different burn rates. They are very close. What I want to know is if you are running a repeater with a COAL of 3.156"?

Yes I am but it is the long action 110. I think if it were run out of a short action the long bullets would take up to much case space?

 

[VKC]

sounds very interesting, I had wondered if the same would apply to a 7wsm or 7saum with downloading down them a little.

 

[dumbbell]

Just an update. I tried to find the top end of pressure with my 6.5x284 and h1000 yesterday. I went all the way up to 59gr with no pressure signs and got 3027fps with the 142 smk. Keep in mind i have a 28" barrel and was using a drop tube to get that much powder in there, and there was a mighty crunch when i seated the bullet. Anyway. My hunting and match load is going to be 55gr of h1000 with the 142 smks at 2860fps and the 130accubond at 2890 fps. I plan to shoot it exclusively and see how many rounds i get.

 

[phxfa]

I saw 2900+ FPS with 140 gr Nosler CCs out of my 24" barreled .260 using IMR 7828 and no pressure signs.
I did not pursue it since I have plenty of AA4350 but I was interested to see what it would do. Lee's 12th edition lists I7828 with the highest .260/140 gr. velocities, and it is not exaggerating in my experience.

Joe

Bug holes (Greg) turned me on to
IMR 7828ssc on my1st 260 build. Way under rated powder, 46.2 gr/139
Scenar is getting me right at 2940 with no pressure. Ejected case is warm, not hot to the touch like H4350

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Any updates on this?

 

[rubicon06on33s]

I have switched to Retumbo. With 57 grains of Retumbo, Lapua brass, CCI br primers and 140 VLD I am getting 3080 fps. That is 1.5 gr below max in the berger book. I was getting pressure with H4350 at 2750 fps but no pressure signs with Retumbo.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Wow... That is damn impressive. What barrel length are you running?

 

[Upper deck]

Nice, thanks for the updates

 

[fastshooter03]

I have a 27" Lilja 3-Groove 6.5-284 on a Tikka M595 Master Sporter.
Haven't shot it much but tried a RL17 load with Berger 140s and it was over 3000 fps at 50 grains.
That was too hot as bolt lift was a little stiff but damn did it shoot.
Don't know about throat life though. As much as I shoot it it will last a lifetime.

 

[dumbbell]

Update is I've settled on a load of 54 gr of h1000 with the 142 smk and it is running 2930fps out of my 28" bartlein. I guess the barrel sped up as I got it broke in. My es is in the single digits with this load. Super happy with it. Got almost 500 rds down the tube and doesn't seem to be any throat movement to speak of.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Man this is really pretty encouraging. I'm thinking of having a barrel spun up for my Bighorn SA. Are most of you guys running the 3.10" COAL with the WSM magazine length DBM's? Or are some running on a long action or standard short action?

-VB

 

[dumbbell]

I'm running long action, but the reamer my Smith used had a short throat. My oal is 2.985 or so so it would run in short action mags, at least until the lands starts moving. But, I expect it to wear similar to a 6.5 creedmore because of lower chamber pressure and temperature, although I have no way of proving that to be true until I get there. Even tho I'm not the first person to ever experiment with this I'm sure, I still feel like a trail blazer. Ahhhh...... I can almost sniff genius. Or failure. Not sure which one

 

[dumbbell]

Let me also add, this is with 142 smks. With berger vld s, u might have to seat longer to get closer to the lands, so keep that in mind. I'm running .045 off the lands with the 142s

 

[Asperly Aimless]

Retumbo is the shit. Try 47 gr in the .243 when ya'll get a chance....

 

[rubicon06on33s]

Wow... That is damn impressive. What barrel length are you running?

It is a bone stock Savage LRH the barrel is 24 inch with a 2 inch brake.

 

[rubicon06on33s]

Retumbo is the shit. Try 47 gr in the .243 when ya'll get a chance....

What grain of bullet. I have a 243 ai that I was eye balling the retumbo for.

 

[woostri]

I've had great success with H1000. It's all I use for my 6mm AI.

--- aim small miss small ---

 

[Asperly Aimless]

What grain of bullet. I have a 243 ai that I was eye balling the retumbo for.

107 SMK and Berger 105 Hybrids. Ramshot magnum is the bomb as well...

 

[dumbbell]

Another update. I finally found a supply of 140 hybrids, and started loading them. With 54 grains of h1000 and the 140 hybrid loaded at 2.35 base to ogive, i am getting 2990 fps with an es of 12. Again, this is with a 28" bartlein barrel, but if these numbers hold up, and especially the barrel life as that is why i am trying this, then i really like this combo. I picked up right at 50 fps with the same load by going from the 142 smk to the 140 hybrid in my gun.

 

[dumbbell]

I am also running a JEC Custom muzzle break, and the gun feels like a 223, so recoil so far hasnt been an issue

 

[dworrel]

I have a 6.5-284 bought here on the hide with a Proof wrapped Benchmark nitrided barrel. Easily get over 3000fps with H1000 and no pressure signs. Very accurate.

 

[Akhunter907]

Well, I was in the OP shoes and had dies and brass for the 7saum. I'm happy with the 3190 with the 130 in the 6.5saum. But it's a hunting rifle Time will tell with barrel life but no pressure signs either with this load. You mention comps. With a bit fatter wallet I'd play with a 6.5 saum in a f classer. But course of fire might get a little toasty. But who knows. No tac comps in my area. If you are shooting for lower speeds there are better 6.5's.

 

[LRShooter101]

Per another topic floating around here on Barrel Life, and going back to the day,

A lot of the horror stories with the 6.5-284 and barrel life came from the days when the load was built using the fastest burning powder you could find, stuffed into the case at max capacity, and shot on the ragged edge of blowing it all apart. The shooters were knowingly sacrificing barrel life for max velocity/performance, but that got "lost in translation" in a lot of cases.

Fast forward to today, and shooters are figuring out that by keeping the pressures as low as they can, especially the initial spike, by using slower burning powders they are not burning out the throats as quickly.

The key for the slower burning powders is having the barrel length to optimize the burn and keep the velocity up. The other key is also the case design, with the shorter / fatter designs like the SAUM, having an advantage over the longer / skinnier designs like a typical magnum.

I learned back in the day when I was legally making pipe bombs with smokeless powder and blowing things up that there was an optimal balance between the length and diameter of the pipe to get the optimal powder burn/explosion. Too short & fat or too long & skinny, and we would always find more unburned powder in the post blast analysis. A good balance between length & diameter, and we would find very little unburned powder.

While some folks are seeing the performance of the SAUM as being magical, IMHO it is just that optimal balance in case design that allows very efficient burning of a slower powder charge, which when coupled with a longer barrel, means that you get good velocity results with out an excessively high pressure spike at the beginning (which is what ultimately kills barrels).

I am running a straight .284 with a .30" barrel, and I am going to start looking at some loads based off of some slower burning powders like H1000. IMHO, the .284 case design is a little on the skinny/long side, so I don't think that it is going to be optimal, but it just may be good enough coupled with the longer barrel.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but thanks to the OP for sharing, hopefully as more discussion takes place on this topic, we can all figure out an optimal combination of case, powder, and barrel (maybe also bullet) that will allow good velocity without the total loss of barrel life.

 

[CHEYTAC]

Tag for later ref.

 

[Surly]

Tag...

 

[idahoorion]

LR shooter 101,

I think you are on to something. there must be a ratio for the bullet dia. , cartridge size etc that can be figured. the 6mm competition match seems to be similar with 3000- 4000 rounds running 105 class bullets at 3000fps. it would take somebody a lot smarter than me to figure it tho. but a realistic speed and H1000 seem to be a big part of the ticket.

Idahoorion

 

[rdog52]

Tag. Good info.

 

[SPEAK338]

Tag for update

 

[dworrel]

I went out and shot 6.5-284 side by side with 6.5 SAUM.

6.5-284 is 26" Benchmark/nitrided/Proof wrapped. I was getting ~3000 fps with Ramshot Magnum - less than 2" vertical at 500 yards. No pressure signs.

Have also had good results with H1000. All with Berger 140 hybrids.

6.5 SAUM is Longrifles with 28" Medium Palma barrel - getting 3200 fps with 61.0 gr H1000. Really fast and flat.

 

[cecchino76]

TAG for future references

 

[slm9s]

Greg, Try 51 grains of H1000 and see what you get for Velocity, if its adequate for you you should get great barrel life. I dont expect it to be very fast.

I did just what George suggested. Using 51gr H1000 with 140 Nosler custom comps, this 'new to me' custom 6.5x284 stacked em in small groups. When I put it over the chronograph, it said 2500fps. Not sizzling by any means. Just fyi.

 

[RobertB]

Yeah. That's slow. But maybe you can find a faster speed that will still get you the bbl life you want. I would want the most speed I could get without going crazy if I was using a 6.5-284. I sold my straight line and now just have the shehane version. You can get good performance out of them when loaded right. Good luck

 

[slm9s]

yeah, that's still supersonic at 1000 yards. But just barely.