6mmCreed vs 6xc vs 6x47 vs 6 Crusader

remau308

remau308

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Jan 20, 2011
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Carrollton, Georgia
#1
I know, another one of these close apples to oranges threads, but I'm a bit stuck on what caliber for my next rifle. It will be used for tac matches with the occasional 1,300 yard private land shooting. I want opinions from using each and if you have pros and cons? I was leaning more towards 6mm Creedmoor, but I figured I would ask a collective of folks that have used them extensively. I want it to be very flat shooting with minimal recoil. It will have a Surefire brake on it, and probably run a suppressor with it. I'm not worried about barrel life unless it's sub 1.5k. I realize barrels are expendable. I was thinking Surgeon action, Manners TF1-A carbon fiber and mini chassis, 22" fluted 1-7.5 or 1-8 twist barrel.

Also, I have added 6.5 creedmoor because my buddy keeps telling me I'd rather have it, but I've shot it before and I'm not so sure.

Don't really want a .243win. Really no reason behind it, just don't want it.
 
#4
So, I've got a 6Creed GAP-10 and a Benchmark 6XC. Both are incredibly accurate. With 115gr coated DTACs, my 6XC actually shoots flatter than my 6Creed shoots best with a milder load. Both are awesome cartridges, you won't go wrong with either. I'm a huge advocate of the 6mm cartridges.
 
#5
The crusader seems out of place here. It has a bunch more capacity than the others. Plus it makes a lousy tactical match cartridge, being it requires fireforming and it sucks loosing FF'd brass at matches.

Amongst the others you've listed, it's really just minor, minor differences. I guess I'd probably choose the x47 because the brass is excellent and LASTS.

My current 6mm of choice is the 6SLR. It has the capacity to easily fling 105s at 3150+, without pushing. It works really well and its nice to have 243 as a parent case. But you didn't list that one as a choice, and frankly, I don't believe it does anything 243 doesn't.
 
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#7
Other than 6mmBR ... the only other 6mm that makes sense to me is SLR.

earrdf.jpg
 
#8
#9
remau308 said:
Thanks for all the replies. I very much appreciate this article Niles. I buy all my barrels from Bugholes, and that write up was perfect. Most comparisons I've run across end up being a pissing match. I think I've decided on 6mm Creedmoor, but the 6XC is very appealing as well.
Click to expand...

I have been considering a 6mm for a while now. I have a 243 now but when it’s time for a new barrel I am going to want something different. Unlike Greg, I could care less if I have to form brass. What matters to me are brass cost, availability, longevity and ability to push 105’s at 2950 at a minimum but preferably 3000 or above. The only thing troubling to me about the creedmoor case (well two things actually) is one, availability and two, longevity. One: I can find creedmoor cases online but never have I seen them in a store local to me. Two: in both 6.5mm and Greg’s 6mm I keep coming back to posts I have read in the past of loose primer pockets well before their time. I don’t think it is necessarily a calliber issue though as I have some Hornady 308 match cases that have done the same thing when ran in the top velocity nodes... nodes that both Winchester and Lapua brass seem to shrug off. But... George of GA Precision also commented in Greg’s thread “Greg, you need a 170 FB on the 6 Creed Min. Most of us run a .195 that would change your results quite a bit.” That could have played a role in Greg’s issue with pressure and subsequently loose primer pockets. So I haven’t made up my mind about Creedmoor cases yet. When I was making up my mind about which 6.5 to use a couple years ago it did push me to the 260 though. That and I was unsure if the CM would hold on to its popularity, which it has BTW. I am still glad I went 260 though as I can make brass when it can’t be found and I can use Lapua when I know I am not going to lose it in the grass.

6mm Lapua is just too expensive, availability is troubling and I am pretty sure it would not meet my velocity goals.

So in my way of thinking this leaves two cases at the front, 6mm XC and 6mm Super LR (SLR), one can be formed from 22-250 when factory brass can’t be found and the other has to be formed, using 243 brass and IIRC, 7mm08 and 308 are even able to be used, just with more steps in sizing.

My preferred barrel length is 22-24 inches and to make 2950-3000 minimum that may be pushing the XC rather hard as Greg’s 27 inch barrel was at 2950 and 3030 with H4350, my Berger load book (which on many cartridges seems rather conservative) puts the max charges right at 2993 in a 24 inch barrel with varget... which leaves me cautiously optimistic. But something [MENTION=45618]turbo54[/MENTION] said in another treada while back keeps circling around in my head and that is running the 6mm SLR at a lower pressure and extending barrel life like what GAP has done with the 6.5 in the SAUM case. I have no doubt I’d make 2950-3000fps in a 22” barrel while using a node or two down from the top at a lower pressure and if I needed the extra advantage it would offer at a match that load could be changed quick. Something the XC could not do.

So until its time, I’ll keep reading up on all the Creedmoor and SLR posts I can find.
 
#10
If I was gonna build a 6mm for tac matches only and bush and girl work, I'd look at running a 6mm-250 for the following reasons:

Easy to get brass
Efficient cartridge
Will feed well and with correct powder choice it should push 105 above 3000 with ease in the shorter barrels I think.

I have 2x 6x47L barrels for my F-Class rifle and will use one for my bush rifle as well but will form 22-250 brass for use out bush as Lapua brass is expensive and I would cry if I lost it.
 
#11
I know u said no 243 but... it just works and it's simple. 1800-2500 accurate barrel life, win brass lasts for 12+ reloads. My 4 have shown great accuracy with nodes at 2998 and 3090-3130 fps. Sure its not sexy, trendy, or has a cool sounding name, but it does have win in it's name.
 
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#13
This topic has been beaten to death soo many times over already, it would make a zombie croak.

They all shoot well, none of them are better than the other. Pick one that is easiest for you to buy/maken and don't look back.
 
#17
Niles,

You stated..."6mm Lapua is just too expensive, availability is troubling and I am pretty sure it would not meet my velocity goals."


I'm glad I didn't say this to myself 7 years ago and almost 20 loadings later with 99% of the primers still tight (warm loads) and all the brass having been BR prepped. I wouldn't be surprised if it lasted another 7 years either. Way back then I paid 65 cents a piece so that expensive brass is turning out to be super inexpensive in the long run. Quality of it is unmatched IMO.

In stock at PV and other places right now BTW.

And yes it will easily make 3000 fps with a 105 in a 22" barrel.

Barrel life varies. 2400 in first barrel, 1500 in second, 3000 in third which was Melonited.
 
#18
I just don’t care for single source brass cause when it’s out of stock one may be waiting a while. But it is good to hear it has longevity and makes 3000... hmmm. Quick oz, above stated it can be made from 22-250, is this true? I have thought of just doing a 6mm-250 but don’t really care for the short neck a 22-250 has when sticking a 105 grain 6mm bullet in the there.
 
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#20
22-250 becomes great 6xc brass. Just lay the shoulder back with a shortened 308 die, FLS in the xc die, and load.

I would choose a 6xc before a 6mm-250 because the body taper of 22-250 is ugly, and doesn't feed super awesome from AW magazines. It works, but always seems like its about to fail.
 
#22
Niles Coyote said:
I just don’t care for single source brass cause when it’s out of stock one may be waiting a while. But it is good to hear it has longevity and makes 3000... hmmm. Quick oz, above stated it can be made from 22-250, is this true? I have thought of just doing a 6mm-250 but don’t really care for the short neck a 22-250 has when sticking a 105 grain 6mm bullet in the there.
Click to expand...

That'd be a lot of hassle trimming and fireforming 22-250 brass!!! It's not going to be able to get the velocity or have the brass life that 6x47L is capable of either.

I just went back to PV to check availability on 22-250, both Rem and Win are out of stock. Nosler 22-250 is almost as much as Lapua 6.5x47L brass.

Mountains out of mole hills. Funny about money. 2 steps forward and one step back.
 
#23
I referred to it as the 6mm shuffle. Like others have pointed they are all so close in performance, it is tough to measure the difference. Brass availability was part of why I went with the XC, even though I also have a 6.5CM. There are so many post of shooters complaining about Hornady's primer pockets coming loose after just a few uses. Early batches of XC brass had issues, but now that Norma is producing commercial brass was one of the things that led me to choose the XC over the others.

Gap has contracted with Hornady to produce 6CM brass, you won't find it through many other retail channels. The 6 6.5-47 Lapua has probably has the best brass of all but it comes at a price. And with Lapua using small primers it will with stand higher pressures. But as with anything it all comes down to trade offs. When you see German Salazar or David Tubbs shooting the XC in competition, I figure the cartridge must have some positive aspects to it. Granted either could win most matches with a BB gun. There is so much to read on any of these cartridges, it all comes down to which you are going to have the most confidence in.

Good luck with your choice.


6XC for Competitive Shooting within AccurateShooter.com

www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html
 
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#24
remau308 said:
I believe the 6mm Creedmoor and 6xc can be formed from 22-250 if you really need the brass.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the creedmoor is much easier to form than the XC with 250 brass, as I've mentioned in other threads, just run the 250 brass thru creedmoor die and fireform, done. I picked the creedmoor over the XC because GAP and McCourt has brass and it's much cheaper than XC brass, Creedmoor can push my coated DTACs faster than the XC, approaching 3100 with 41.9grs H4350, figure 41.7grs Hybrid 100V will push that well over 3100fps. Like many others mine seems to be a lazer as well, can't fathom building anything other than another 6 Creedmoor, that's right, I am. LOL
 
#25
If the hornady 6mm creedmoor brass was anymore expensive I would probably go 6xc or 6x47 since both have great brass but with it being semi cheap and almost always in stock I'm fine with the sub-par brass. My 6mm creedmoor is running the 105's right at 3150fps, barrel has 1220 down the pipe as of yesterday and not a single bit of accuracy lost. It still shoots in the 1's when I do put it on paper if I do my part. It has dropped about 10-20fps since peaking but a tenth more on the powder takes care of that. Also I have 4 others that I shoot with regularly that shoot them as well and all of us use the same 105 hybrids, all of us have velocity at 3150 which means our dope is identical which helps when spotting for a partner at a match. I'm sure the others would be close enough for that not to really make any difference though. To me if its not over 3100fps there really isn't a whole lot of benefit to the 6mm stuff other than lower recoil. Push a 6.5 with 140's pretty hard and performance will be on par or better than a 6mm moving at 3000fps, or at least in my opinion it would be. :)
 
#26
That is one good thing about the 6x47L, brass life is awesome. I have a few cases that are getting a tiny bit loose but still useable. More then useable actually. I don't kind paying for the brass as it's good brass and will work great and last. If you have brass that lasts 20 reloads and is 2 bux a piece and some that last 10x reloads and is 1 buck a piece, what would you choose? I'd prefer the more expensive stuff as it's more likely to last a few more and is better value for money. And I would pay lots more then you guys for brass as I'm in Australia, I pay 1.60 a peice for my 6.5x47Lapua brass and 90c for my 308 Palma brass.
 
#27
Niles Coyote said:
I just don’t care for single source brass cause when it’s out of stock one may be waiting a while. But it is good to hear it has longevity and makes 3000... hmmm. Quick oz, above stated it can be made from 22-250, is this true? I have thought of just doing a 6mm-250 but don’t really care for the short neck a 22-250 has when sticking a 105 grain 6mm bullet in the there.
Click to expand...

6mm-250, look past that option if you plan on mag feeding. Shot matches with two different guys shooting 6-250's, both had trouble mag feeding.
 
#28
6brshooter said:
I know u said no 243 but... it just works and it's simple. 1800-2500 accurate barrel life, win brass lasts for 12+ reloads. My 4 have shown great accuracy with nodes at 2998 and 3090-3130 fps. Sure its not sexy, trendy, or has a cool sounding name, but it does have win in it's name.
Click to expand...

Actually it's not that the 243 isn't "sexy" or the latest trend. What you'll find is that the shooters here that actually shoot and compete almost exclusively were shooting .243. Why they changed and went to 6cm is you were actually seeing the same performance as the 243 with less powder. Also, the fact that the 115s were, at times, very difficult to get-especially when all the comp shooters are vying for what few were made. Therefore when it was discovered that the 6cm was more efficient and could match performance with the 243 it was a no brainer.
 
#29
Irokcrawl said:
If the hornady 6mm creedmoor brass was anymore expensive I would probably go 6xc or 6x47 since both have great brass but with it being semi cheap and almost always in stock I'm fine with the sub-par brass. My 6mm creedmoor is running the 105's right at 3150fps, barrel has 1220 down the pipe as of yesterday and not a single bit of accuracy lost. It still shoots in the 1's when I do put it on paper if I do my part. It has dropped about 10-20fps since peaking but a tenth more on the powder takes care of that. Also I have 4 others that I shoot with regularly that shoot them as well and all of us use the same 105 hybrids, all of us have velocity at 3150 which means our dope is identical which helps when spotting for a partner at a match. I'm sure the others would be close enough for that not to really make any difference though. To me if its not over 3100fps there really isn't a whole lot of benefit to the 6mm stuff other than lower recoil. Push a 6.5 with 140's pretty hard and performance will be on par or better than a 6mm moving at 3000fps, or at least in my opinion it would be. :)
Click to expand...

Have two 6x47's one of which shooting the 105 Hybrids at 2950/26", the other at 3020/24". Both very accurate. So often in these caliber threads velocity is the focus, very little talk about accuracy. Managed a win last month at a steel match beating superior ballistic calibers/bullets with the 2950 rifle, one of which was a 6.5SAUM/140 Hybrids at 3180. I've been beat by plenty of calibers/bullets inferior to mine.
 
#30
Mike said:
Actually it's not that the 243 isn't "sexy" or the latest trend. What you'll find is that the shooters here that actually shoot and compete almost exclusively were shooting .243. Why they changed and went to 6cm is you were actually seeing the same performance as the 243 with less powder. Also, the fact that the 115s were, at times, very difficult to get-especially when all the comp shooters are vying for what few were made. Therefore when it was discovered that the 6cm was more efficient and could match performance with the 243 it was a no brainer.
Click to expand...

Isn't the x47 more "efficient" yet than the 6mm Creedmoor? Matches velocity with less powder...
 
#33
Mike said:
Besides the question wasn't as to which case was more "efficient", it was an explanation as to why the 243 has fallen out of favor in certain communities.
Click to expand...

The most I have heard about the .243 is barrel life being shorter than the others, but I personally cannot speak from experience.

But I can speak from experience on my 6XC
Rem700 action
Krieger MTU 26" 1-8tw
105 Berger Hybrid @ 3050 (40gr H4350) Norma Brass

These were shot at my home range at the same 10" steel every time.

Load Develop/Zeroing


3 Shot at 600 yards, then one adjusted down for correct dope, wind picked up and pushed it right. Painted over it before I snapped picture, you can still see splash.


5 shots at 800 yards, first shot was low, second 2 a little high, readjusted last 2 for center dope


 
#34
HodgdonExtreme said:
Isn't the x47 more "efficient" yet than the 6mm Creedmoor? Matches velocity with less powder...
Click to expand...

From what I've seen the 6x47 doesn't pull the same velocity as the 6mm creedmoore but I've been wrong many times in my life. I heavily thought about going that route but wanted the option to pull 3200fps+ if needed which is why I went 6mm creedmoor. With h100v 3300fps with the 105gn Hybrids isn't a problem if you don't care about the brass. :) well I'd say if you only want 3 firings out of it. If there was lapua 6mm creedmoor brass I'd push it that fast in any match that allowed it. For my 6mm creedmoor and about 5 others I shoot with that also shoot it 3150fps is a sweet spot for accuracy which just so happens to be a lot of the match max velocity which makes it a pretty straight forward choice, more so if the brass was "great"

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 
#35
Id like to add I am not a very experienced shooter, just now getting in to competitive shooting and the alike, so I have confidence my rifle will out perform most of what I am able to do with it. I shoot with 2 gentlemen that have x47L rifles by Beanland and they are remarkable rifles, extremely accurate, and smoothest actions (Bighorn) I have ever seen. Mine is basically a budget build..

Correction: The 2 rifles I am referring to are 6.5's, but they are currently building 6x47L's to replace the 6.5's with.
 
#36
I would also say having the ability to have much more room to play with seating depth with the 6mm creedmoore vs a 243 is a benefit. I've watched quite a few people running 243 with the Dtacs have feeding issues due to the variance in the ogive to tip variance since all they measured off of was the ogive and didn't actually check the overall length which then put a few rounds longer than AI mag length. I know it cost a buddy of mine probably a few points at the big dog steel match at K&M. My 6mm creedmoor oal is right at 2.7650 so there is still plenty of room.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 
#37
6xcKY said:
The most I have heard about the .243 is barrel life being shorter than the others, but I personally cannot speak from experience.

But I can speak from experience on my 6XC
Rem700 action
Krieger MTU 26" 1-8tw
105 Berger Hybrid @ 3050 (40gr H4350) Norma Brass
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we understand your point? What are you speaking to? No one was comparing accuracy.

Besides, get your xc to 3150 and then lets talk.
 
#38
Irokcrawl said:
From what I've seen the 6x47 doesn't pull the same velocity as the 6mm creedmoore but I've been wrong many times in my life. I heavily thought about going that route but wanted the option to pull 3200fps+ if needed which is why I went 6mm creedmoor. With h100v 3300fps with the 105gn Hybrids isn't a problem if you don't care about the brass. :) well I'd say if you only want 3 firings out of it. If there was lapua 6mm creedmoor brass I'd push it that fast in any match that allowed it. For my 6mm creedmoor and about 5 others I shoot with that also shoot it 3150fps is a sweet spot for accuracy which just so happens to be a lot of the match max velocity which makes it a pretty straight forward choice, more so if the brass was "great"

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I've never actually seen or spoke to anyone in any comp that had a 6xc go to 3150. The only place I see it is on the interwebz. When you talk to people in comps they always have it going 2950-3050
 
#39
Mike said:
I've never actually seen or spoke to anyone in any comp that had a 6xc go to 3150. The only place I see it is on the interwebz. When you talk to people in comps they always have it going 2950-3050
Click to expand...

What's the case volume difference between xc and creedmoor? I know the xc is just a tad bit smaller when compared to each other side by side and 3150fps with the creedmoor is very easy to reach. Mines coming out of a 24" barrel so it's not a 30 inch setup or anything. 42.6gn of h4350 gets me there and 42.2gn of h100v gets the same results for me. Basically 3158fps average with a ES of 4-6fps. Bottom line the 6mm stuff whatever it may be imo flat out rocks. In the end the shooter makes the shots so even though I can put 5 shots in one hole I'll always have someone who will out shoot me on their bad days.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 
#41
Mike said:
I'm not sure we understand your point? What are you speaking to? No one was comparing accuracy.

Besides, get your xc to 3150 and then lets talk.
Click to expand...

I was referring to where you was speaking as to why a lot of people have switched from the .243 to alternate cartridges. A lot of people also complained about barrel life compared to what they was getting in other 6mm calibers with the same performance results. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast my rifle to anything, I was basically agreeing with you, and adding some.

No reason to push my rifle to 3150 from what I have seen as it shoots well to 1K (as far as I have available) and I am sure it would do the same past that.
 
#43
6xcKY said:
I was referring to where you was speaking as to why a lot of people have switched from the .243 to alternate cartridges. A lot of people also complained about barrel life compared to what they was getting in other 6mm calibers with the same performance results. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast my rifle to anything, I was basically agreeing with you, and adding some.

No reason to push my rifle to 3150 from what I have seen as it shoots well to 1K (as far as I have available) and I am sure it would do the same past that.
Click to expand...

I wasn't attacking you, I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
Most of the barrel life issues you see about the 243 is BS. More than one has gone to 2500 and beyond and still held great accuracy.
 
#49
wvlapua said:
What has the better brass life between 6creed, 6cm, 6slr and 243?
Click to expand...

There is no definitive answer as there are a number of variables. What brass are you using? There's a big difference between Lapua 243 brass and Winchester 243 brass yet they're both 243. How hard are you pushing it? Are you neck sizing or FL sizing? Do you run comps where you lose brass 25-50 pieces each comp? This, and many factors, play a roll in what brass you choose.
 
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