6x47 Lapua... my first wildcat

[cudby]

Hi guys,

6mmBR did not work in my rifle
I was in the process of building a 6mmBR when it did not work out and i have abandon it. I have decided to get another project going and its going to be a 6x47 Lapua.


6x47 Lapua
So this is my first wildcat caliber and would like to ask for advise starting with:

- Can I just can run 6,5x47 Lapua brass though a forster FL die and then this will be enough or do I neeeeeeeeeeeed to neck turn? I will be using Forster FL die (have always done this and it just works).
- I have never tried neck turning and dont know where to start ... what do I do?
- Any other tips and tricks to share, then please do
- What load data do you have and what group sizes do you all shoot? Pictures pleazz

NB I dont want to go into a caliber discussion. 6x47 Lapua is it.

 

[Fig]

Nope. Just resize it the first time with the FL die like it was shot and you're good to go. No neck turn should be necessary (never was for me).

It's a "barely wildcat". It really just should be a 6x47. If I want 6.5 I'd just go Creedmoor. You're gona love it. Easiest caliber I've ever done load development for. Shoots good across a wide spectrum of loads and seating depths.

 

[cudby]

Nope. Just resize it the first time with the FL die like it was shot and you're good to go. No neck turn should be necessary (never was for me).

It's a "barely wildcat". It really just should be a 6x47. If I want 6.5 I'd just go Creedmoor. You're gona love it. Easiest caliber I've ever done load development for. Shoots good across a wide spectrum of loads and seating depths.

So step by step it´s just:
- Take a new brass 6,5x47
- Lube it up expecially inside
- Put in the press (forster CO-AX)
- Press down with a 6x47Lapua Forster FL die

And there you go... that it?

 

[Lunchbox27]

Yup! You got it. Same thing I did when going from 6.5 to 6

 

[Fig]

Yes.

 

[cudby]

Yup! You got it. Same thing I did when going from 6.5 to 6

Nice.

What load data do you have and what group sizes do you all shoot? Pictures pleazz

 

[Lunchbox27]

Mines Creedmoor and all data can be found on the last page of the 6mm Creedmoor thread in the reloading section (groups, charges, velocity)

 

[spife7980]

Nice.

What load data do you have and what group sizes do you all shoot? Pictures pleazz

Decent starting and max, I always go to hodgdon first

Take Aim at Rifle Reloading Data | Hodgdon Reloading

Find what you need in four easy steps. Select your cartridge type from the drop-down list. Then select your bullet weight, powder manufacturer and powder type. If you're unsure, or just want options, check as many boxes as you'd like. Click "Get Data" to view results.

www.hodgdonreloading.com

 

[Ranger188]

Do you have an idea what bullet or powder you want to use?
Also, what is this going to be used for? PRS, fun and steel. What distances?
Do you have the Forster 6x47 FL die in hand? Cause they are out and won't make anymore
for a couple months. I just called to get another one. (custom honed) And nobody else has them.

 

[LawnMM]

So step by step it´s just:
- Take a new brass 6,5x47
- Lube it up expecially inside
- Put in the press (forster CO-AX)
- Press down with a 6x47Lapua Forster FL die

That's all you HAVE to do. I'd recommend a Sinclair mandrel inside the neck to even things out and get the neck tension unbuggered from necking down.

Then I like to trim mine so the necks have a nice chamfered and deburred edge.

 

[steve123]

It's not a bad idea to set a false shoulder when you neck it down, it helps the case to form at consistent blow lengths. All you do is set the die so when the bolt closes down there is a small amount of force required to close it, this is because the shoulder of the case pushing against the front of the chamber causes a slight interference fit on the head of the case against the bolt face.

Also I'd turn the case 180 degrees in the shell holder and size it twice which sets the shoulder more consistently.

Originally I used a FL non bushing die to size down which worked okay but I've read of people using an intermediate sized bushing like one that would be used for say a 25x47L to neck down once and then again a 2nd time with a bushing appropriate for necking down 6x47L.

 

[Ranger188]

Steve your works fine too, but by using the bushing you don't get all the way down to the shoulder on later sizing
I did the FL non bushing and worked fine. Just debur the case mouth, and put a little lube on the end and it won't hang
up in the die. My brass shoots pretty good....
This works in a no turn chamber. If it's a custom reamer with a tight chamber then a few more steps are needed.

 

[cudby]

That's all you HAVE to do. I'd recommend a Sinclair mandrel inside the neck to even things out and get the neck tension unbuggered from necking down.

Then I like to trim mine so the necks have a nice chamfered and deburred edge.

Hi,

so you want me to buy a Sinclair mandrel and put into my Forster FL die?
Sorry for the question but I don’t know if this process.

 

[Fig]

When I first got the 6mm I tried to use the bushing dies in two steps to neck down and it buggered too many cases. I think because they were larger than the bushings they were often catching on the transition and crumpling. When I switched to a solid FL die this problem disappeared. I've never screwed piece of new brass necking down with the Forster FL die.

The bushing method made more sense to me, but just the FL die worked far better. Crumpling new Lapua brass is the worst. Not saying that this will be the same for everyone, but I think that the FL die is more idiot proof.

 

[LawnMM]

Hi,

so you want me to buy a Sinclair mandrel and put into my Forster FL die?
Sorry for the question but I don’t know if this process.

Sinclair Neck Mandrel

It's a separate die you would run the brass through after necking down.

 

[spife7980]

Hi,

so you want me to buy a Sinclair mandrel and put into my Forster FL die?
Sorry for the question but I don’t know if this process.

This separate expander die body holds the mandrel, the case gets pushed up into it and over the mandrel.

This is the mandrel that the case neck is forced up onto and which opens the inside of the case neck to the mandrel dimension.

By expanding the neck when pushing up the case head is forced square to the press shell holder and the mandrel is forced square to the die body meaning that the neck should come out straight to those two surfaces.
When you drag an expander ball through it the tension is on the thin soft brass case walls when the ball would be getting pulled through the neck.
Hopefully your press is square (and it should be, if not thats a separate issue) so that the mandrel leaves the neck square to the bore center line but thats better than relying on the known not perfect stretchy brass to not stretch.


Sinclair, 21st century and PMA all have interchangeable die bodies and mandrels. K&M is proprietary and not shareable.

 

[cudby]

This separate expander die body holds the mandrel, the case gets pushed up into it and over the mandrel.
View attachment 7183161

This is the mandrel that the case neck is forced up onto and which opens the inside of the case neck to the mandrel dimension.
View attachment 7183164

By expanding the neck when pushing up the case head is forced square to the press shell holder and the mandrel is forced square to the die body meaning that the neck should come out straight to those two surfaces.
When you drag an expander ball through it the tension is on the thin soft brass case walls when the ball would be getting pulled through the neck.
Hopefully your press is square (and it should be, if not thats a separate issue) so that the mandrel leaves the neck square to the bore center line but thats better than relying on the known not perfect stretchy brass to not stretch.


Sinclair, 21st century and PMA all have interchangeable die bodies and mandrels. K&M is proprietary and not shareable.

Hi,

Thanks for this post. The last sentence: "K&M is proprietary and not shareable"... what does that mean?

I like K&M and this these are great tools.

 

[cudby]

When I first got the 6mm I tried to use the bushing dies in two steps to neck down and it buggered too many cases. I think because they were larger than the bushings they were often catching on the transition and crumpling. When I switched to a solid FL die this problem disappeared. I've never screwed piece of new brass necking down with the Forster FL die.

The bushing method made more sense to me, but just the FL die worked far better. Crumpling new Lapua brass is the worst. Not saying that this will be the same for everyone, but I think that the FL die is more idiot proof.

I am going for the safe way that will cause the least amount of problems. Thanks

 

[spife7980]

Hi,

Thanks for this post. The last sentence: "K&M is proprietary and not shareable"... what does that mean?

I like K&M and this these are great tools.

You can only use k&m mandrels with the k&m die body and it’s not interchangeable with the other mandrels or die bodies like all the others are with one another.

 

[cudby]

You can only use k&m mandrels with the k&m die body and it’s not interchangeable with the other mandrels or die bodies like all the others are with one another.

Okay I will. What size mandrel ?

 

[spife7980]

Whatever size you need?

Typically "turning arbors" are .002 below bullet diameter and "expanding mandrels"are .001 under bullet diameter. They used to be used to prep brass for neck turning where the expander made it just large enough for a tight slip over the turning arbor but now we are using them to actually set the inside neck diameter.

21st century offers them in .0005 increments http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-mandrels.html

 

[Steel head]

This separate expander die body holds the mandrel, the case gets pushed up into it and over the mandrel.
View attachment 7183161

This is the mandrel that the case neck is forced up onto and which opens the inside of the case neck to the mandrel dimension.
View attachment 7183164

By expanding the neck when pushing up the case head is forced square to the press shell holder and the mandrel is forced square to the die body meaning that the neck should come out straight to those two surfaces.
When you drag an expander ball through it the tension is on the thin soft brass case walls when the ball would be getting pulled through the neck.
Hopefully your press is square (and it should be, if not thats a separate issue) so that the mandrel leaves the neck square to the bore center line but thats better than relying on the known not perfect stretchy brass to not stretch.


Sinclair, 21st century and PMA all have interchangeable die bodies and mandrels. K&M is proprietary and not shareable.

Those dies are useful for getting brand new brass up to a decent neck tension as well.

 

[cudby]

Whatever size you need?

Typically "turning arbors" are .002 below bullet diameter and "expanding mandrels"are .001 under bullet diameter. They used to be used to prep brass for neck turning where the expander made it just large enough for a tight slip over the turning arbor but now we are using them to actually set the inside neck diameter.

21st century offers them in .0005 increments http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-mandrels.html

Hi,

So if I want to use a expanding mandrel by K and M, is should be .001 under bullet diameter ( .243 )?

I thought it should be .002 under bullet diameter ( .243)?

It is .002 or .001?

 

[spife7980]

Hi,

So if I want to use a expanding mandrel by K and M, is should be .001 under bullet diameter ( .243 )?

I thought it should be .002 under bullet diameter ( .243)?

It is .002 or .001?

Depends on what you want! K&M will also custom grind you a size. Some people want .001, most people default to .002 but some also like .003-.004. There is no wrong answer, only opinion and what you ind to give best performance.

Expand Mandrel Selector and Accessories

The Expand Iron Tool will iron out and slightly expand the case neck so the brass will spring back to the correct size needed to neck Turn your Pet Brass. Includes press adapter and one mandrel, view more details here.

kmshooting.com

The k&m is also a bit confusing to me. I dont know if you can use just a press adapter or if you also need the window riser. And their instructions suck. I dont think the riser is necessary, just convenient.

 

[Ranger188]

cudby, since you live in Denmark I would get a couple different sizes., maybe 3. They don't cost that much
but the shipping will be the biggest thing. No sense getting one and find out it's not going to work
and have to order and ship another.
( .001 .002 .003 under .243) .240, .241, .242
You've got it covered depending on how you brass reacts and if you anneal or not.

 

[Ranger188]

What are some of the gun ownership laws there. Rifles and pistols?
We are always curious about different countries laws.

 

[cudby]

What are some of the gun ownership laws there. Rifles and pistols?
We are always curious about different countries laws.

Well, if you are a hunter, its possible to buy a hunting rifle which is not a .50 BMG.

Pistols are not allowed for hunting. Getting one involves getting it tough a shooting-club.

 

[Jigstick]

the 6x47 can be a picky cartridge. Mine took some work to get tuned and was pretty sensitive to neck tension and seating depth with the Berger 88s and 105s. I used a 272 neck and 104 freebore reamer. Turning the case necks and using a 269 bushing got me 3 thou of neck tension and the gun hammers now. Just be prepared to spend some time with load development.

I FL sized lapua 6.5x47 brass in the Forester 6x47 die you mentioned to neck down. Then turned the case necks and ran them through a wilson 6.5x47 FL bushing die with a 269 bushing. Seated the Bergers with a Wilson inline seater and arbor press.

Berger 105s
40.5g of H4350
CCI 450 primers

im getting avg velocity off my Magneto chrono at 3150fps. Out of a 26in 1:8 twist Krieger.

Gun hammers. Just took more effort on the handloads compared to my other rifles. Its common knowledge that the 6x47 is picky to tune. Read the posts over on 6mmBr and here. Good luck. If you need any help let me know.

 

[LawnMM]

It's only picky if you scorch the throat with a shitload of powder.

What's your MV with 40.5? 3100+?

 

[Ranger188]

Jigstick quote, "im getting avg velocity off my Magneto chrono at 3150fps. Out of a 26in 1:8 twist Krieger."

I'm guessing his barrel life is going to be short lived. That's faster than what I pushed my 6 creed.
At least you have a fast barrel.

 

[LawnMM]

Sorry, was working during that reply and missed it.

Yeah, it's only "finicky" with 40gr of powder. It's pushing too hard to get there and the reason you have guys burning out 6x47 or 6CM barrels in 800-1200 rounds is the same reason the loads are "finicky"

You're burning the throat out so fast the lands are moving, changing jump length and pressure, and the "finicky" load drops out of tune.

The extra 200fps aren't getting you anything significant ballistically. Slow those down to 2950 or so and it'll be a lot more consistent.

I pushed my first 6x47 barrel like that and I have brass with loose pockets after the 5th firing.

Wait a few years after people start burning out the ?? and it'll have the same reputation if people push it that hard.

On the flip side if people run it slower in the 2900-3000 range and it sees some success you'll know why.

 

[Jigstick]

It was picky with 37g of varget as well. I chased nodes with varget and 4350. Settled where I got the best performance. And the throat is far from “scorched”. Way more difficult to tune than a 6BR or 6 Dasher. Time will tell on barrel longevity but so far the throat is comparable to what I’m getting on my 6.5x47 at 1000rds

 

[LawnMM]

It's okay man, some people have to make their own mistakes to learn the lesson.

 

[Jigstick]

Im fine bro. Some people are just more uninformed and inexperienced than others.

 

[cudby]

I am planning to shoot the 105 grs Lapua Scenar L and would like to shoot at app. 2.900 ft/sec. it that realistic or will there be too low a fillness degree in the cartridge ?

I would like to get as a small recoil.

 

[LawnMM]

2900 will be easily attainable and stable

 

[cudby]

2900 will be easily attainable and stable

That sounds great.

 

[Ranger188]

You will run across a couple of nodes in the 2900 + range
Of course the higher one will have more case fill, I would try to find that one.
You will still be in great shape at that speed. The Scenar's are a great bullet. Very consistent.
What powders are you looking at?

 

[LawnMM]

 

[cudby]

You will run across a couple of nodes in the 2900 + range
Of course the higher one will have more case fill, I would try to find that one.
You will still be in great shape at that speed. The Scenar's are a great bullet. Very consistent.
What powders are you looking at?

living in Europe we often use Reload Swiss, RS, powder andI am planing to go with RS62 since is single based. I like that.

Below is a Burn Chart comparing to other powders.

https://www.reload-swiss.com/en/media/editor_media/reload_swiss/pdf/Burnrate_Chart_dt.pdf

 

[Ranger188]

Looks like that would be the powder to use. (RS62)

I've downloaded that chart.
Would be a chart for others to download, since it has a few powder burn rates we
don't see that often.

 

[kgoltz]

the 6x47 can be a picky cartridge. Mine took some work to get tuned and was pretty sensitive to neck tension and seating depth with the Berger 88s and 105s. I used a 272 neck and 104 freebore reamer. Turning the case necks and using a 269 bushing got me 3 thou of neck tension and the gun hammers now. Just be prepared to spend some time with load development.

I FL sized lapua 6.5x47 brass in the Forester 6x47 die you mentioned to neck down. Then turned the case necks and ran them through a wilson 6.5x47 FL bushing die with a 269 bushing. Seated the Bergers with a Wilson inline seater and arbor press.

Berger 105s
40.5g of H4350
CCI 450 primers

im getting avg velocity off my Magneto chrono at 3150fps. Out of a 26in 1:8 twist Krieger.

Gun hammers. Just took more effort on the handloads compared to my other rifles. Its common knowledge that the 6x47 is picky to tune. Read the posts over on 6mmBr and here. Good luck. If you need any help let me know.

I'll Second this, I also had to do a little tuning on the 6x47 but once you find it they shoot! My load is almost identical to jigstick, just a little slower with a 24" barrel!!

 

[D_TROS]

Ive shot 6 barrels in my 6X47. Nvr changed the load once.

105 Berger.
36 gr varget
38 gr 4350
both right at the 3040 mark

If I buld another, it will be shooting the 109 bergers at 2900-2950. no need to hot rod em. nothing good happens there.


GL!
DT

 

[cudby]

Ive shot 6 barrels in my 6X47. Nvr changed the load once.

105 Berger.
36 gr varget
38 gr 4350
both right at the 3040 mark

If I buld another, it will be shooting the 109 bergers at 2900-2950. no need to hot rod em. nothing good happens there.


GL!
DT

How many shoots did you get though each barrel before you dicided to get another ?

 

[D_TROS]

How many shoots did you get though each barrel before you dicided to get another ?

I never shot a match past 2k. Not worth it. Used those for club matches usually to 2400-2600 before trash can.


GL
DT

 

[cudby]

If anybody is selling a Forster Bench Rest Full Length Sizer Die

please send me a PM