Ok, while I may know how to build it, I have practically no really experience with either of these calibers, and want to build one or the other. I would like to hear from those who actually own, hand load, and shoot them at long range (1000 yards or better). I have a Stiiler long action, but can get a short if need be for the WSM if that turns out to be the choice. I have read the write ups already, this is why I want to hear from actual shooters for confirmation. Thank you in advanced.
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7 MM WSM or 7 MM Rem Mag
- Thread starter STR
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I am building a 7mm WSM on a short action Surgeon. I have a feeling from all the reading I did to narrow it down that it will be a great choice. So as of yet I can not tell you the result of my effort but I will suggest you consider the 7mm WSM in the long action. I will be loading soon and found that with the Berger 180 VLD's in a short action I run out of room to grow the COAL. And there may some longer, heavier bullet comming from what I here. PTG makes a 7mm WSM reamer with two freebore lengths, one for SA and one for LA.
^ Shoot the 162 amax's with 65gr of reloader 22. Try something near that. You won't be disappointed with the WSM.
Bohem also favored the WSM in the long action. He wrote me about it in an email, but I accidentally deleted it before reading the whole thing. I still don't have a reamer ordered because I know there are a few options. How would it feed from an AI mag?
I owned a 7mm Rem mag that was a absolute hammer with 168 vld's, and Winchester brass was good stuff in my opinion. 69 grains of Retumbo with CCI Mag primers put them right at 3,000 fps out of a 24" tube. The heavier sevens are wind cheaters. If you go rem mag, get a Willis collet die to remove the bulge that will eventually form right in front if the belt and you will get 20+ reloadings out of you brass.
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If you reload, I would definitely go with a 7wsm. It is more powder efficient and you can get some impressive velocities with the heavy 7mms.
The argument for 7rm is the it is more common available, but to me that doesn't matter because I reload.
The powder difference and loading in a short mag narrowed it down to the 7wsm fairly quickly for me.
7saum just doesn't have as much case capacity to keep up in a short action, in my opinion, but shines with better powder efficiency in a long action. Brass is more consistent than the 7wsm, but really hard to find and much more expensive. I weight sort and neck turn my 7wsm brass and get great sub-MOA accuracy at a fraction of the cost. Plus until recently I could just go to my local store and pick up some 7wsm brass, not to same with 7saum
I agree that a long action will allow you to get more velocity out of any 7mm mag, and it will depends on your barrel length and preferences.
I have a surgeon RSR, which is a short action with mag bolt face. I use Alpha mags but Seekins are great too. For the 180 Berger hybrids & hunting VLDs, I'm getting 2950fps with a mid-range H1000 load from a 28" barrel. You can run the numbers on a ballistics calculator and make a decision for yourself.
If you have a Stiller long action, just keep it and use of for a 7wsm.
My 7wsm makes 1000 yds hits on a chest-sized plate easy.
The argument for 7rm is the it is more common available, but to me that doesn't matter because I reload.
The powder difference and loading in a short mag narrowed it down to the 7wsm fairly quickly for me.
7saum just doesn't have as much case capacity to keep up in a short action, in my opinion, but shines with better powder efficiency in a long action. Brass is more consistent than the 7wsm, but really hard to find and much more expensive. I weight sort and neck turn my 7wsm brass and get great sub-MOA accuracy at a fraction of the cost. Plus until recently I could just go to my local store and pick up some 7wsm brass, not to same with 7saum
I agree that a long action will allow you to get more velocity out of any 7mm mag, and it will depends on your barrel length and preferences.
I have a surgeon RSR, which is a short action with mag bolt face. I use Alpha mags but Seekins are great too. For the 180 Berger hybrids & hunting VLDs, I'm getting 2950fps with a mid-range H1000 load from a 28" barrel. You can run the numbers on a ballistics calculator and make a decision for yourself.
If you have a Stiller long action, just keep it and use of for a 7wsm.
My 7wsm makes 1000 yds hits on a chest-sized plate easy.
Notch your feed ramps and use a Seekins or Alpha mag and you can seat them long. 180gr Bergers @ 2950fps is no compromise in anyone's book.
Maybe similar with the light 150grs in a less than 20" barrel. Great round for a shorter barreled rifle. But not even close to the same performance as a 7wsm in a longer barrel with any of the heavier 180grs.
Perhaps [MENTION=48778]mcfred[/MENTION] will come along soon. He has a 7 wsm he built on a pierce short action, and it seems to be working well for him. Search his user name for his build thread
Any significant difference in accuracy or performance between the 7Rm and WSM is between the ears.
I have seen both in rifles more than capably of winning F-Class matches.
My personal choice would be the 280 Ackley or the good old 284...Not for mystical performance, but for the Lapua brass.
I have seen both in rifles more than capably of winning F-Class matches.
My personal choice would be the 280 Ackley or the good old 284...Not for mystical performance, but for the Lapua brass.
Me personally I would go 7WSM and stick with the long action for longer pills that's if you load, if you don't go 7Mm more factory loads but depends on your budget also.
If you've got a long action, there's no reason to not take full advantage of 3.6" box and go with a 7 Rem. My 7 Rem hammers with 162 A-Maxes- Retumbo drives 'em to 3150, but the load that shoots the best features 7828 and the 162 going 2960ish....
7WSM and 7SAUM are also excellent carts, but match the case to the action. I can't see a benefit of doing a WSM family build on a long action over a standard 7 Rem, but maybe I'm missing the point. I know some guys did just that and theirs shoot very well....
7WSM and 7SAUM are also excellent carts, but match the case to the action. I can't see a benefit of doing a WSM family build on a long action over a standard 7 Rem, but maybe I'm missing the point. I know some guys did just that and theirs shoot very well....
Oh, here's some stuff for you to look at. I personally subscribe to the thinking that shorter, chubby cases shoot better, but long old school belted mags can post up bugholes, too!
This is a factory 7mm Remington barrel- rifle weighs 9.5lbs. Nothing beyond 1k in these pics, but I'm gathering hunting-distance DOPE....
500 yards, 162 A-Max
600 yards, 162 A-Max
800 yards, same bullet...
Up close groups...
(Comparison of POI's off a Bipod vs. A backpack)
This is a factory 7mm Remington barrel- rifle weighs 9.5lbs. Nothing beyond 1k in these pics, but I'm gathering hunting-distance DOPE....
500 yards, 162 A-Max
600 yards, 162 A-Max
800 yards, same bullet...
Up close groups...
(Comparison of POI's off a Bipod vs. A backpack)
The point in using a long action on a short mag or a short action case is for DBM system for c.o.a.l. as where the short action dbm will limit your c.o.a.l. In certain cartridges.
Correct me if I'm wrong but most DBM's will extend a SA's COAL latitude to dang near 3.0", correct? If the action/mag mortise is handle d correctly? I've got some dummies sitting at home with 162s in WSM cases, and also the 175gr Matrix seated in a WSM case, and I can't see that loading them longer than 3.0" would be of too much benefit if the the throating was done correctly?
Maybe I'm still missing something.
Maybe I'm still missing something.
Ultimately the 7RM can outperform the WSM when both are run in a long action. The difference is small.
Personally I like short actions. I've ordered a magnum bolt for my m2013 action. When it arrives I intend to chamber a 7-300WSM barrel for it.
Personally I like short actions. I've ordered a magnum bolt for my m2013 action. When it arrives I intend to chamber a 7-300WSM barrel for it.
The 7WSM has a very short neck.
If you seat a 180 hybrid so only the boat tail is south of the shoulder/neck junction, you'll have a cartridge ~3.150" or so long.
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Like I said certain cartridges I don't load for 7WSM or 7mm so I'm not familiar I was nearly pointing out the fact that I know in other cartridges it is nice to run long pills like berger,s in my 308 and 300WSM to me it would be nice to have a long action in my 300WSM really comes down to preference.
Gotcha', this makes sense. Those 180 Hybrids must be stupid long... Thanks for the info!
I have no experience with 7 Rem Mag, though my experience with 7WSMs is that running a short action with the heavy bullets is that you stuff the bullet way in the case and lose some capacity and raise the pressure for a given load. If you reload and re-use your brass a lot you'll eventually have to deal with donuts.
Whichever action you get make sure the bolt's timed right to the receiver and that you get the most out of your primary extraction. The low body taper makes hot loads temperamental to extract when in a rush at the matches. If you want to be quick and smooth run low pressure loads and be happy with 2850fps. With a long barrel, throat and heavy loads you can get 3150.
Turbo's right about the short throat. My reamer has a .050" throat and all the Bergers and 162hrny matches are right at Alpha mag length (2.965"ish). 180 SMKs run ~2.890" to the lands and that's what I run, I've got a heap of them and they're cheap next to Bergers. In retrospect I'd've gone to a .040" throat since you'll be chasing lands as they evaporate.
Short throats are necessary for using the mags without a huge jump and sub MOA accuracy is adequate for running local competitions. You can single-feed longer-than-mag-length cartridges If you want to go out to the desert and plug rocks at a mile. Either way, you can throat/seat the Hybrids out as long as you like (~3.100"OAL) and get up to 71gr Retumbo behind it. Just depends on what application you're going to use it for.
I've not had much of an issue with W-W brass quality either. I've gotten 8-10 reloads on some stuff that was probably higher pressure than I should've been running. Just re-anneal them every 4-5 reloads and keep the donut in check.
Here's some 180 hybrids at 525yds just messing around:
Hard to go wrong.
Whichever action you get make sure the bolt's timed right to the receiver and that you get the most out of your primary extraction. The low body taper makes hot loads temperamental to extract when in a rush at the matches. If you want to be quick and smooth run low pressure loads and be happy with 2850fps. With a long barrel, throat and heavy loads you can get 3150.
Turbo's right about the short throat. My reamer has a .050" throat and all the Bergers and 162hrny matches are right at Alpha mag length (2.965"ish). 180 SMKs run ~2.890" to the lands and that's what I run, I've got a heap of them and they're cheap next to Bergers. In retrospect I'd've gone to a .040" throat since you'll be chasing lands as they evaporate.
Short throats are necessary for using the mags without a huge jump and sub MOA accuracy is adequate for running local competitions. You can single-feed longer-than-mag-length cartridges If you want to go out to the desert and plug rocks at a mile. Either way, you can throat/seat the Hybrids out as long as you like (~3.100"OAL) and get up to 71gr Retumbo behind it. Just depends on what application you're going to use it for.
I've not had much of an issue with W-W brass quality either. I've gotten 8-10 reloads on some stuff that was probably higher pressure than I should've been running. Just re-anneal them every 4-5 reloads and keep the donut in check.
Here's some 180 hybrids at 525yds just messing around:
Hard to go wrong.
I've owned Both and still have the 7mag,nothing wrong with either one but before I sold my 7wsm,brass for the wsm was none existence.
I'm not really "into" F class, but I know a few fellows that are fairly serious about it regionally (not nationally) and I read about it here and there and everywhere.
My understanding is there is a rather fine balance these shooters need to strike between exterior ballistics and recoil. All of the competitive rifles are at max allowable weight, and of course they are not allowed to have muzzlebrakes.
The course of fire requires a lot of shooting over the course of a weekend, and many matches require 5 strings of 20 rounds for record, plus sighters. ~110 rounds of non-braked 180gr bullets at 3150fps is fatiguing for ANY shooter, and the X ring is small!
My point is I don't think its fair to use an F class championship as proof that a 280/284 can match the exterior ballistic performance of the magnums. Proof that it strikes a better compromise for F class? Absolutely!
If they were allowed to use muzzlebrakes, you'd see a bunch of the top dogs with cartridges sporting a LOT more powder.
Recoil fatigue is a factor, and we do typically shoot 3x20 on Sat and 2x20 on Sunday. So yes, there is a balance, but the F-Open guns have a weight limit of 22 lbs, that will suck up a lot of recoil.
However, most of the top open shooters are running the 7 RSAUM; a few are running 7-300 (aka 7-270) WSMs (more available brass for forming, more efficient size). I'm sure there are a few running the 7WSM, but none that I know. The 284 win plays from time to to time but has to be loaded in a long action to have any chance and is a little under powered) All of these guys are all pushing 180s in the 2900+ range. The only thing that brakes would do would to maybe make 338s practical, but at the barrel consumption rate it would have to be a huge advantage.
Take a look at real world differences in the exterior ballistics and they become pretty irrelevant at 1000 yards+. I'd far and away go with a caliber that would give me 30% more barrel life, or better/more available brass options.
However, most of the top open shooters are running the 7 RSAUM; a few are running 7-300 (aka 7-270) WSMs (more available brass for forming, more efficient size). I'm sure there are a few running the 7WSM, but none that I know. The 284 win plays from time to to time but has to be loaded in a long action to have any chance and is a little under powered) All of these guys are all pushing 180s in the 2900+ range. The only thing that brakes would do would to maybe make 338s practical, but at the barrel consumption rate it would have to be a huge advantage.
Take a look at real world differences in the exterior ballistics and they become pretty irrelevant at 1000 yards+. I'd far and away go with a caliber that would give me 30% more barrel life, or better/more available brass options.
I too have had both. Still have the 7mmRM. Both shot excellent @ 3100 fps with 168 VLDs. IMO, if you have a LA go RM and not look back.
Im staying RM from here on out.
Brass is plentiful.
LA AI mags are excellent- plenty of OAL lattitude. I personally don't care for the WSM mags (unless they're modded AI mags)
Im staying RM from here on out.
Brass is plentiful.
LA AI mags are excellent- plenty of OAL lattitude. I personally don't care for the WSM mags (unless they're modded AI mags)
7SAUM is my choice
bullet correctly seated 162AMAX = 2.950 OAL
works fine from short action
Gots all the boiler room needed
brass is very good
However as you have a long action on hand
7-300Norma
i have no luv for belted mags
bullet correctly seated 162AMAX = 2.950 OAL
works fine from short action
Gots all the boiler room needed
brass is very good
However as you have a long action on hand
7-300Norma
i have no luv for belted mags
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If you can find the brass, go wsm and set yourself up to reload.
I have one in a long action to shoot the longer boolits....
I have one in a long action to shoot the longer boolits....
Hmmm... Deersniper. SH member since 2007. 6731 posts. Has time to post staged photos of rifles/equipment; does NOT have time to reload... alright then. 
Bringing to light these kinds of observations must be why I don't have many friends...
Bringing to light these kinds of observations must be why I don't have many friends...
Since a 7 year old thread was resurrected I’ll chime in.
With the addition of new brass and RL23, 7WSM is nice
choice,
and I love not having to deal with belted cases anymore.
Running 162 ELDMs at 3100 easy at 2.950.
And you can run it out of a long action if ya got one faster.
Never had any issues with accuracy using Winny brass out of any of mine.
All three of my 7WSMs have been 3 of the 4 most accurate rifles I’ve ever owned,
Regardless of who built them.
With the addition of new brass and RL23, 7WSM is nice
and I love not having to deal with belted cases anymore.
Running 162 ELDMs at 3100 easy at 2.950.
And you can run it out of a long action if ya got one faster.
Never had any issues with accuracy using Winny brass out of any of mine.
All three of my 7WSMs have been 3 of the 4 most accurate rifles I’ve ever owned,
Regardless of who built them.
When did the 7SAUM start making a come back? Cause with half decent brass now I'd take that in a LA in a heart beat.
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