Range Report 7mm heavy question

[BrettSass844]

I have done a shit load of searching and have read quite a few articles and everyone seems to have a different opinion on the most efficient way to push the heavy 7mm projectiles. Everyone swears by one of the calibers 7 Rem Mag, 7 STW, 7 ultra, 7 wsm, 7 saum. My question is what do you guys use and feel is best based on first hand experience. I am expecting a promotion at work and this rifle will be a gift from my wife for all the hours and hard work to get to this point. I will lay out the uses and expectations of this rifle in order of most important to least. I'm leaning towards a 7 short mag. But again there are loads of opinions of what brass to use for this. Some say 7/300wsm and some say 7/270wsm.

1. Will be a hunting/target rifle. Will definitely be used on a Idaho elk hunt next year. So weight is a slight concern.
2. Would like to use it at 1k and beyond.
3. Availability and affordability of reloading components. Off the shelf ammo is no concern.
4.Ability to feed out of a DBM.
5. Hope to have a barrel life of 1500 or more. Not a huge concern because it will be built off a Savage action and its easy to swap barrels without paying a smith.
Thanks in advance.

 

[JCH]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I'd go 7saum or 7wsm. I would go WSM because winchester brass is better than remington.

I used Accurate Mags on my 7wsm, they fed fine.

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm heavy question

7 WSM is not the same as 7/300 or 7/270 WSM, the 7 WSM has a shoulder that was pushed forward ~ 0.040"

If you get a regular 7 WSM then you're going to need to fireform or shoot real 7 WSM brass.

I've had a 7 SAUM in a 22" barrel and it was a little anemic due to the high overbore ratio and short barrel length. My current project sitting on my bench is a 28" barreled 7/300 WSM. I chose that for 3 primary reasons:

1) Easier to find brass
2) Longer neck on the 7/300 than the 7 WSM.

ETA: Reason 3) Plenty of capacity to drive the heavy 7mm bullets without going to a belted mag case or long action case so I can use KwikKlip bottom metal on my long action and not be hampered by COAL.

 

[JCH]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7 WSM is not the same as 7/300 or 7/270 WSM, the 7 WSM has a shoulder that was pushed forward ~ 0.040"

If you get a regular 7 WSM then you're going to need to fireform or shoot real 7 WSM brass.

I've had a 7 SAUM in a 22" barrel and it was a little anemic due to the high overbore ratio and short barrel length. My current project sitting on my bench is a 28" barreled 7/300 WSM. I chose that for 3 primary reasons:

1) Easier to find brass
2) Longer neck on the 7/300 than the 7 WSM.

</div></div>

I think you missed one of your reasons

 

[BrettSass844]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7 WSM is not the same as 7/300 or 7/270 WSM, the 7 WSM has a shoulder that was pushed forward ~ 0.040"

If you get a regular 7 WSM then you're going to need to fireform or shoot real 7 WSM brass.

I've had a 7 SAUM in a 22" barrel and it was a little anemic due to the high overbore ratio and short barrel length. My current project sitting on my bench is a 28" barreled 7/300 WSM. I chose that for 3 primary reasons:

1) Easier to find brass
2) Longer neck on the 7/300 than the 7 WSM.

</div></div>

Right, I guess I didn't word that correctly. I am leaning towards a 7mm is a short mag variant. But I'm not sure if I should use the regular 7wsm brass, or form either the 300 or 270. I guess a 338 edge is a option also. Is that overkill for what I'm looking for?

 

[JCH]

Re: 7mm heavy question

7wsm and the 162 amax gives you 1000ft/lbs of energy out to at least 1000yards.

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think you missed one of your reasons

</div></div>

LOL, fixed it.

 

[Skyking]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I love the 7WSM.

Here is my real world experience with it.

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[264win]

Re: 7mm heavy question

if you want a sa i would go with the 7 saum as it can fit in a sa even with the heavies . i like it the best personaly , but any of the others are fine if your using a la . btw my 28" 7 saum ran 162 amax @ 3200 fps w/o pressure the norma brass is very good imo.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 7mm heavy question

Hi i just returned from another state long range championship 1000 to 1200 yards that is 4 wins in a row with a 7mm rem SAUM with Rem or Norma brass it does not matter just use one grain more powder in the Rem cases to have the exact balistics and 175gr MatchKings over 3100fps in a 30" lawton barrel.

The rem SAUM is better ballanced than the 7mm WSM and also better in my opinion over the 7mm 300wsm i am runnung 1 gr less powder than the guys using the 7mm 300's and getting nearly 100fps more than them we all use Retumbo and CCI 250's and this is confirmed in 2 barrels and am fitting a Rock up next week and believe that the results will be similar. we also shoot to 1500 and 1760 yards and the 7mm kills any 30 cal especialy as breaks are not allowed you dont want a 300 ultra with 240's for 15 and 20 shot strings.

Go with the 7mm Rem SAUM if you dont like Rem Brass get Norma 300 cases and neck them down. i have had as good results with Rem as Norma and dont batch anything as there is a lot more to worry about as the projectile makes its trip 1000 yards plus.

also the 175 MatchKings are realy hard to beat they have always shot in every rifle i have tried them in fron 284 wins to large 7mm mags give them a try and you need a long drop tube to get the powder in the case my barrel was rechambered at 1200 rounds and now has close to 1800 and will get 2000 without trouble will not use it in comps past that but at club shoots my last barrel has over 2500 rounds through it aswell.

 

[distantfoe]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I'm in the same boat, need a 7mm to primarily hunt with but will see a lot of targets out to 1000yds.

The saum definately has started to appeal to me but have read a lot about the 284. If I felt like I could get 3K with 168s, I would go with the 284 in a long action.

 

[trigger time]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I went through the same thing a couple years ago and ended up with a old school 7mm rem mag. Main reason is hunting. Any wally world in elk/ deer country should have it on the shelf should something happen with my ammo. Brass is easy to find from Rem, Win, Nosler, Hornady, and probably others. Badger 300wm BM runs great. I'm running a 180 Berger and it is a hammer.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I'm expecting a lump sum retroactive benefit, and have similar aims in mind.

I'm thinking of starting out with the Savage 111FCNS, chambered in .30-'06. It's good for about everything you mentioned, with a bias more toward hunting than target.

Once the new begins to wear off, my next thought is to an upgrade, with a L-W 28" 1:9" LW-50 Stainless barrel, Savage Varmint Taper, chambered in .280 Rem, and one of the McMillan A-series Tactical stocks. I would want some additional LOP, and already know I can use the A5 without any need for an adjustable cheek piece. Maybe another barrel, identical, except for a .30-'06 chambering and 1:10" rifling twist.

Greg

 

[GRIM]

Re: 7mm heavy question

7 SAUM with 162 AMAX's. 55 grains of H4350 in a Rem case (not even close to leaning on it for speed yet) at 2820 fps gives ~ 25.0 MOA of drop at 1000 yds here in Denver. Accurate little rifle too.

 

[krummarine]

Re: 7mm heavy question

With all due respect to my fellow jarhead, Mr. Langelius, and my DEEP respect for the 30-06, I recommend the 7mm SAUM; Rem got this one right; perfect "short/fat" in terms of cycling and ballistics.

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krummarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all due respect to my fellow jarhead, Mr. Langelius, and my DEEP respect for the 30-06, I recommend the 7mm SAUM; Rem got this one right; perfect "short/fat" in terms of cycling and ballistics. </div></div>

The cartridge is great, too bad they screwed the pooch on building rifles and marketing the thing.

 

[dontstrokeme]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I think that was one of the best video's to show what it is we do.



Gotta figure a way to take a copy on CD to work!!!



I am also thinking through my next build. It will probably be an "ELR prone type Tactical" shooting. By that I mean similar target engagment as you would use in a LR match, but with the emphisis (sp)on long time limits, multiple targets from ELR from the same basic position. Like a plinking day shrunken down to 10 minutes.

Now that would be a hell of a challange and proof of ability. In SHWW we do all day long shoots where you would bring 3-4 rifles and pistols and spend all day going very long so a bolt 50cal would be fun out there but not practical for a movement based ELR match.

I am using an 18" barreld 7mm-08 Rem with 162gr Amax and IMR4064 and running around 2600fps on the chrono but in my cheap ballistic program it has the drop of the 162gr Amax at 2750fps. I need to do more load development but I can easily attest to the usefullness of the 162gr Amax. So I was leaning to just nutting up and buying an MCM Edge type of rifle and go with the STW and a good brake.

But now the 7mm SAUM is peaking my interest and I am curious as to two things:

1) What the heck twist is on the GAP that Moon built in the video? I keep hearing 1.87???????


2)Forgot what post it was but the Green rifle above....what barrel length are you running?



To me it seems that the 7WSM seems to be benefited more by going to a 28" or longer tube. I wonder if the 7SAUM be content with a 26" and under barrel?

 

[strictlyRUM]

Re: 7mm heavy question

7 saum! The shoulder is far enough back it can feed out of AW mags when tweeked. It also has alot more neck and room for throat length when going short action. Nosler makes 300 saum brass which can just be necked down for the 7. Nosler brass is good stuff and allready prepped and weight sorted so there is half a day and alot of thrown out remmy brass. I went with the WSM but I am chopping it off and changing flavors this week to the 7 saum for feeding and throat advantages.

Jason

 

[GRIM]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dontstrokeme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2)Forgot what post it was but the Green rifle above....what barrel length are you running?
</div></div>

It's a 24" PacNor barrel - I bought the rifle turnkey from a buddy of mine. When I get it rebarreled I'm going with a 28" Chanlynn barrel.

 

[Skyking]

Re: 7mm heavy question



1) What the heck twist is on the GAP that Moon built in the video? I keep hearing 1.87???????

Yes my GAP has a 1-8.7 twist

 

[jdwelch10]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I recently built a tactical and hunting rifle in 7mm rem mag. I went this route bc I'm looking for practical accuracy not trying to win benchrest competitions. I reload all my stuff but if something ever happened I can find ammo easily. Also I can achieve the same velocities as short magnums with less pressure although it's not quite as expensive I know. And I've shot half 5 shot moa groups with it out to 500 yards so far.

 

[dworrel]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I have a 7 Rem Mag and a 7 WSM. I am admittedly pretty enamored by the WSM cartridges as I own the 270, 300, and the 7 WSM. But, given your criteria, A short action magnum would seem to be a good choice. The 7 WSM is a GAP similar to the 1 in the above video and is the most fun to shoot of any gun I've owned.

I chose the WSM over the SAUM for brass purposes and there are lots of mag options which let you seat the 180 VLD's, etc.

If you really want a target gun (pleasant to shoot over and over), that's a hunting gun you're going to carry on an elk hunt, I would go with the WSM or SAUM.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: 7mm heavy question

What is the recoil of a 7 short mag (either one) compared to say a 30-06 (shooting 180s)?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 7mm heavy question

the felt recoil of my 7mm rem SAUM is less than a hot 155 palma load in a 308 when they are both shot off the bags as the pressure spikes faster in the 308 and feels heavier the 7mm SAUM is a pleasure to shoot so i think it will feel even less than the 06 loaded hot with a 180gr projectile. i use Retumbo for barrels over 26" and 175-180gr projectiles and for barrels shorter or lighter projectiles H1000 is the best starting point and CCi250 primers work the best for accuracy in that configuration.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: 7mm heavy question

That's great. It looks like 7rsaum will be my next bolt gun, I'm very excited about it. Have heard 7 mags are guns that you need a muzzle brake for, not sure. Sounds like maybe not. I'm lucky, I can shoot 30-06 all day long with a little shoulder pad. Can shoot probably 75-100 without.

Am debating barrel lengths between 24-26 inches. Any insights? As far as handling, I don't mind longer barrels, but I guess there is probably a limit somewhere. Are their performance benefits in there that would sway the decision?

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm heavy question

26" minimum on the SAUM, longer if you can get the blank. The Brux I just ordered is aimed at being a finished 29" tube and meant to shoot the 180 Hybrids.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I've been running 180 Bergers in a 7-300WSM for a little over 1 year and really like it but, if starting from scratch with no dies in hand, I'd go 7SAUM. I built one for a client in Calif. and he’s driving the 180's at 2,950fps with stellar accuracy. My 7-300 is driving the 180's at 2,920 with 66.0 grains of RL25, the 7SAUM in Calif is doing it with 63 grains of RL25. Much more efficient cartridge. As far as barrel life, the BR guys are complaining that the barrel is toast after 6 to 700 rounds.

Funny, I received a call about an hour ago from a 7WSM shooter. After 600 rounds he has 5"-6" of fire cracking in his throat.

I ran three 7mmRM's over a 15 year period. Damn fine cartridge but, I think the 7SAUM has it beat. Build it in a LA with .180" free bore and run the 180's, rock solid to over 1,200 yards.

The 7SAUM in Calif..............he shoots it to 1 mile and makes consistent hits on steel. 1,760 yards. What’s not to like/love.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 7mm heavy question

i am also wondering what they are doing to kill a barrel in less than 700 rounds i am about the chamber my thirs 7mm Rem SAUM and i only use Retumbo with 175 and 180gr projectiles in them and i am getting well over 3000fps and 30" barrels and shoot long range F Class with them shooting 15 and 20 shot strings in under 10min i fired 22 shots in under 5 min one day and i am getting around 2500 rounds out of a barrel rechambering the barrel once around 1300-1500 rounds then shooting the barrel until it gets hard to keep cleen.

I have a lot of old 162gr Hornady HPBT peojectiles i am going to run in my older barrels for club shooting and will use H1000

If you try retumbo in your 7mm300WSM the accuracy load in them with a 180 seems to be 68.5gr but please start low and work up. in my SAUM and 175gr MatchKings it is throated as i fire it single shot i use 6.5gr in a rem case and 66.5 in a Norma 300 SAUM case necked down and they are both exactly the same ballistics.

I am also getting over 50fps more in my SAUm than any of the guys with their 7mm or 7mm300WSM's.

the Rem case is a better design it is a pitty that Rem missed the boat on the marketing as it is perfect. the 300 WSM might be slightly better than the SAUm in 30 cal as the larger case will suit the expansion ratio or the larger bore but for 7mm you can not beet the 7mm SAUM with any other short mag or the standard 7mm Rem mag it seems to be amasingly ballanced.

Like i said get a long drop tube and try retumbo William instead of Re25 i am sure you will be amased. i shot 3 shots at 1182 yards at a new 45% IPSC steel and the 3 shot group measured 2.670" and yes there are plenty of whitneses and 2 shots were rem cases and the other a Norma case so that is good enough for me if i had more ammo i would have loved to put 2 more into it to make a real groop but the barrel was over 1500 rounds old when i did it so dont believe the short barrell life.

I have seen a 6.5X47 that died in under 300 rounds because of bad barrel steel it has just gone back to the US but the barrel manufacturer is replacing the barrel so i wont say their name here as they are fixing the issue and every barrel maker can be hit with some barrel steel that is not up to spec and that can cause poor barrel life.

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm heavy question

Both Williams, this is both excellent info. I thought hard about the 7/300 WSM reamer that I just had made and the biggest reason I didn't use the 7 SAUM instead was because I'd been told several times that brass was soon to be Unobtainium since R-P had stopped making it.

Needless to say, I have a 7/300 that Dave Kiff made for me which I'm looking forward to wringing out at distance, though I'm not shooting F-class with it so we'll see how the tube lasts.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I tried Retumbo and H4831. Retumbo was a no go and H4831 was too slow. RL25 has been the best powder to date for me. 10 shot strings will barely have the barrel warm.

Krieger Barrel, WW Brass, CCIBR2 Primers, 66.0 RL25, 180 Bergers

 

[Outerspace]

Re: 7mm heavy question

While we're at it, since this thread is bringing out some great folks with experience in the 7 shorts, I have a question on weights.

I'm looking at Berger, they have a 168 and 180 grain "hunting bullet". My primary purpose for the rsaum would be hunting within 300 yards on game up to elk, and potentially longer ranges on sheep/goats,maybe some deer depending on terrain.

I'm starting to come to the opinion that the weight of the bullet doesn't matter too much on the stopping power, but penetration, expansion, weight retention, etc which according to some does not rely solely on weight. Eg, in the recent Rifle magazing there is an article on the 30-06, and the author after many years of experience settled on a 160 type weight over a 180 of a particular brand because the terminals were just better.

I know I can get and shoot both, but since I am starting with zero experience I would like to learn from the experience of others also.

 

[Graham]

Re: 7mm heavy question

Don't believe what you read in the magazines: hunting is about bullet placement. A difference of twelve grains of bullet weight doesn't matter: in 7mm the 168's and the 180's will do fine. I like the heaviest bullet that I can get to shoot well in a given caliber.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: 7mm heavy question

If I may point out, if you believe that hunting is about bullet placement, why concern yourself at all with getting the heaviest bullet that shoots well?

To elaborate, the best terminal ballistics methodology that I have seen to date is from Evan Marshall/Edwin Sanow Defensive Handgun Stopping Power.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/

Basically they went to after action reports and tabulated the percentages that a round produced a one shot stop. I mean that is the pudding from whence the proof comes, as far as I can tell, it is the bottom line. Now their research is on handgun rounds, but it seems to me that their methodology is probably the best, as difficult as it may be to do.

So I've been kind of getting away from caliber, grain, type of bullet, construction etc as far as selecting a hunting round and just asking very experienced people what they've used that worked well or didn't work well from various calibers and go from there. It seems to be the most sensible to me at this point.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 7mm heavy question

it would depend ont he action you are going to build it on if you have a short magazine like a factory Rem i would use the 168's as they wont be seeted as far down into the case as the 180's but with an extended mag box or a long action try the 180's the heavier you hit them the better but you still have to hit them int he right place so whatever shoots the best in your rifle would be the one i would use and dont forget the 175gr MatchKing i have found them amasing aswell so there are 3 to choose from get the one that tack holes. Also it will depend on barrel length if the barrel is realy short you will likley get better performance with the lighter projectiles as you might not get the 180's up to a speed to get an advantage over the 168's

I would build the rifle and buy a box of all 3 the 168 and 180 bergers and a box of 175gr MatchKings and see what works the best for you.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it would depend ont he action you are going to build it on if you have a short magazine like a factory Rem i would use the 168's as they wont be seeted as far down into the case as the 180's but with an extended mag box or a long action try the 180's the heavier you hit them the better but you still have to hit them int he right place so whatever shoots the best in your rifle would be the one i would use and dont forget the 175gr MatchKing i have found them amasing aswell so there are 3 to choose from get the one that tack holes. Also it will depend on barrel length if the barrel is realy short you will likley get better performance with the lighter projectiles as you might not get the 180's up to a speed to get an advantage over the 168's</div></div>
Good points, I will be going with at least a 26 inch barrell. I would entertain going longer than that, but would need to find a gun that long to handle first.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would build the rifle and buy a box of all 3 the 168 and 180 bergers and a box of 175gr MatchKings and see what works the best for you. </div></div>
Argh, I knew you would say that.

The problem I have is that I am new to hunting. I have only been shooting seriously for about a year and a half. So I don't have the knowledge that comes from experience yet, and like many newcomers I'm desperate to pick the brains of people who have that, but it seems like it's hard to get the question that lets the knowledge flow. Eg, the lethality of bullets on game, it seems comes from long experience.

Now, I acknowledge that as a previous poster mentioned, sometimes this really is all hairsplitting, but at the same time as far as my development is concerned that terminal performance of given loads is something I can't learn about fast enough. So bear with me.

 

[Graham]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I may point out, if you believe that hunting is about bullet placement, why concern yourself at all with getting the heaviest bullet that shoots well?</div></div>Because I want to be able to place my shots well up to the maximum lethal range. Handgun stopping power has nothing at all to do with rifle stopping power. Rifle stopping power for hunting is about maximum lethal range; there are optimal game weight formulas (OGW's), but rather than rely on paper stats I prefer a high BC bullet well-placed. The heaviest that shoots well is usually the highest BC in a given caliber.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 7mm heavy question

Hi i have used the Bergers and 175gr MatchKings for Game both are great performers that is why i said to test whatever works best in your rifle one thing if you are going to be jumping the projectiles the Sierra is generaly more tolerant to jumping to the lands and there fore sometimes the best option when going with a mag fed rifle as you dont have to chase the lands. Try the 175gr MatchKings and Berger 180's first as they will hold the energy better at longer ranges and i cant remember what mag you are using if you are going AIC the Morta mags will work well for you their WSM mags and a rem SAUM will allow for good bullet seating.

 

[Graham]

Re: 7mm heavy question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the Morta mags will work well for you...</div></div>

 

[RayDog]

Re: 7mm heavy question

I'm a 7WSM fan. I have a 7wsm George built me that rocks. It's won a few matches and hit an IPSC at a mile. Those 180s at almost 3000 fsp are sick