7saum, short or long

[Dkcampbl]

I've got a Proof barrel cert burning a hole in my pocket and have pretty much decided I want a 7saum. It'll be mostly a hunting rifle and I'd like to shoot 175 or 180 Bergers. I know this is a borderline combination in a short action which I'd like to use. Looking for advice from the experts. ;{)

Thanks a bunch!

 

[just browsing]

You’ll be able to get away with a SA and the 180s.

That being said, 7 SAUM performance really improves when you’re able to seat the bullets out further (and subsequently increase case capacity).

 

[axarob44]

I got one brewing, almost ready to send it off next month to get built with a short action. I think it will be fine with the right powder in a short action. Im going to use a Hornady 180gr ELDM with Reloader 26 (great powder) probably. Using the WSM mags get a little more room. I've heard people say that Alpha mags are good to go too but, I can't seem to find any. I was lucky to snag some Norma brass last week when it popped up. I'm really surprised this isn't a more popular round.

Here is a 180 ELDM in an Accurate Mag WSM. It's sitting .100" off the the end of the magazine. Not quite sure yet. I may push it out to .050" off. Haven't spoken with the Gunsmith yet to see what's the best way to go.

 

[Dkcampbl]

Thanks guys! Did a little work on my mags and I'm looking at 2.940 length. What are you guys looking at for oal on your cartridges?

 

[Gilly]

Go long action and set freebore accordingly 7 saum really shines. Short action go 6.5 saum it’s not handcuffed like the 7 is with length restricted to SA OAL just what I’ve seen with them. I currently run a 6.5 saum in a long action with 150 smk and a custom throat to get back all the case capacity the bullet was eating up at mag length on my first one in a short action and .081 chamber, even though it was a hammer at 3050.

 

[axarob44]

What kind of velocity would you expect from a 180gr in a long action? Ballpark?

 

[aBetterTomorrow]

Thanks guys! Did a little work on my mags and I'm looking at 2.940 length. What are you guys looking at for oal on your cartridges?

why not buy magazine made for 7 saum - "cartridge with a COAL of 2.950" or less"

 

[Dkcampbl]

Which mag is that?

 

[aBetterTomorrow]

xlr industries

 

[axarob44]

Accurate Magazine WSM mag is the same 2.950"

 

[Sheldon N]

I run short action mag fed Berger 195's in Accurate WSM 7 round magazine. COAL 2.94" at 2890 fps with RL26. 30" barrel though...

 

[Dkcampbl]

Thanks for the replies. Was thinking a Curtis Axiom, recon these will fit it?

 

[Gilly]

What kind of velocity would you expect from a 180gr in a long action? Ballpark?

I’ve seen 2990 with 180 eldm when pressure was starting to show but the load hammers out to 2000, hard to not shoot it. 2925-2950 is probably more of an ideal range. Although Quick load showed the current load just under max pressure with the longer OAL for what it’s worth.

 

[Edds]

I have a new 7 SAUM barreled action that is waiting for me to put a stock on it. Mine is a BDL style but I used a Surgeon WSM action with a Wyatt center feed magazine box and a Badger M4 trigger guard. The inside length of the magazine is about 3.00". I wouldn't want anything shorter than that. If I were to do another one, I think I would use a Defiance XM action.

 

[gregsjt]

Do you already have the action? If not I wouldn't do a short with the SAUM. I had one with a Surgeon action and used alpha mags. I worked, it shot great but it was held back by the OAL. If you are building one for hunting I would go with a long action and if you are going to use a long action you should use a bigger case too. It's pretty hard to beat a Remington Mag.

 

[Dkcampbl]

No don't have the action yet and yes I agree if I had to go with the long action I'd just as well take advantage of it.

I'm going to check out the Defiance XM length action. Are there any other mid length actions out there?

 

[Cjl2010]

No don't have the action yet and yes I agree if I had to go with the long action I'd just as well take advantage of it.

I'm going to check out the Defiance XM length action. Are there any other mid length actions out there?

Lone peak fuzion

 

[Edds]

Are there any other mid length actions out there?

Borden has one.

 

[Dkcampbl]

Hmmm... Defiance XM is 8 months out... course my proof barrel is prolly over 4. Not sure I'm patient enough for this...

 

[Gilly]

Helped my buddy with the long action 7 saum run a quick ladder this afternoon and accuracy node was ~ 2940. He might chime in with more details.

On a side note I had a first round cold bore impact at 1580 yards today with my 6.5 saum so can’t complain about that! Just in case you’re contemplating going that route! ?

 

[Bravo6niner]

Helped my buddy with the long action 7 saum run a quick ladder this afternoon and accuracy node was ~ 2940. He might chime in with more details.

On a side note I had a first round cold bore impact at 1580 yards today with my 6.5 saum so can’t complain about that! Just in case you’re contemplating going that route! ?

Ya we ran a quick ladder on my 7 saum today. Originally I was running 65.6 gr h1000 with 180 eldm’s and it was shooting really well (same load in another saum I had) but I was having a slightly stiff bolt lift so ran another ladder today and settled on 64.9 gr. Originally I was running in that 2985-2990 range once the barrel was broke in. Now it looks like I will be in that 2940-2950 range. I’m running this in a long action and if you still have the option to go long action I would. SAC chambered this barrel for me and their 7 saum 180 hybrid specific reamer is perfect!! Short action cuts so much potential from this cartridge. I’ve ran this setup out to 2010 yds with awesome results!!!!!

Gilly your first round impact was possible because of me being the wind bitch FYI ?

Plus we could hear my hits at 1580, 6.5 saum not so much !!!

 

[Glassaholic]

Just finishing up LD on my SA 7 SAUM. To me, the whole point behind the SAUM is the “short action”, I am getting just under 3000 with Hornady 175 ELD-X and H1000 which to me is phenomenal! I use Alpha WSM mags and can load out to 2.965 but the sweet spot is between 2.955 and 2.960 for my rifle. If you’re going to do long action you might as well do 28 Nosler or 7/300 Norma Magnum, but for me, getting 2900+ with 175-180’s was my goal and I’ve exceeded that with the long magazine options for SA mags. Just my 2 cents

 

[C_R_Slacker]

So if I wanted to do a short mag cartridge in a short action, would you recommend a 6.5 saum because of the c.o.a.l? I like the 7mm bullet selection better, but if it's going to be handcuffed, going 6.5 might be better.

 

[Bandit31]

So if I wanted to do a short mag cartridge in a short action, would you recommend a 6.5 saum because of the c.o.a.l? I like the 7mm bullet selection better, but if it's going to be handcuffed, going 6.5 might be better.

I'd say go with what your gut is telling you. IMO, either cartridge is going to have drawbacks no matter which way you want to swing it whether it be cost, brass life, barrel life, or how it performs at distance.

I will say, I spent about a year or so debating on if I wanted to go with the 6.5 or 7 Saum and ended up with the 6.5 Saum and still have been second guessing my decision mainly because my experience with the Hornady 6.5 brass sucks.

 

[5RWill]

I've got a proof 1in8 24" 7mm barrel waiting to be chambered in 7 Sherman Shortmag. I'm expecting 2900-3000fps with 180gr ELD-M with RL26 based on Rich's results thus far. If this is a hunting gun and you don't mind footing the brass bill and fireforming i think you'd be hard pressed to find a better option for 7mm in a short mag. Essentially it's a 7 SAUM set back with a longer neck and 40 degree shoulder. 2.920" with a 180gr hybrid as pictured below. Left is the 7 SAUM right is the 7 SS. Rich has ADG brass that's all neck turned and just needs fire forming, albiet at $2.75 a pop. Just need to get the damn thing chambered and buy dies and i'm off.

His results IIRC out of a 26" tube with RL26 were
195gr Elite Hunters at 2955
180gr Hybrids at 3070
175gr at 3100
162gr at 3200

https://shermanwildcatcartridges.com/

 

[Gilly]

So if I wanted to do a short mag cartridge in a short action, would you recommend a 6.5 saum because of the c.o.a.l? I like the 7mm bullet selection better, but if it's going to be handcuffed, going 6.5 might be better.

Depends on your intended use really. Are you trying to put down an elk? Or are you shooting steel and paper? If it’s the former I’d go 7mm just for energy on target, even though I’ve never seen anything kill a mule deer faster than my 6.5 saum did. Steel, well it doesn’t care about energy. My 150 smk arrives at 1580 and out with more velocity, dialing less drop and less wind than the 180 eldm out of 7 saum, just less energy, so no we couldn’t hear it but the steel has impact on it all the same. Less recoil is one more advantage, you push 30 grain heavier bullet the same speed 3000 FPS it’s gonna have more recoil. I’ve shot my 6.5 saum to 2010 yards with near identical results to 7 saum with 180, I had a smaller 3 shot group than @Bravo6niner by an inch ?. They are both a blast to shoot and we have fun going back and fourth on which is better. It’s trivial unless you’re trying to put an animal on the ground and need the energy. Don’t overthink it, pick one and go shoot it!

Bertram 6.5 saum brass should ease the drought on supply and quality sounds good. I’m running copper creek 300 saum necked down, expensive but great brass. @Bandit31

 

[Gilly]

Top 6.5 saum bottom 7 saum. Same plate, same day all shot at 2k

 

[Dkcampbl]

Great stuff everybody, really appreciate it! I'm considering shifting gears now after talking to a couple gunsmith buddies..... ;{) Still staying with the 7 SAUM since I intend this to be primarily a hunting rifle. Those long lead times on the customs bummed me out so instead of a custom action I think I'm going to see what I can find in a Tikka action. May give up a little accuracy but I like the bolt throw and know they are a sound accurate action.

Throw in the proof barrel and a good stock and it should be a nice shooter.

Comments....

 

[Seandradamus]

I am going to second Will5rs choice
If you don’t mind a little extra work the 7 Sherman Short solves all the shortcomings of 7 SAUM in a short action.Its like a Giant 7mm Dasher. Fire form 100 rounds for Breakin and that will last the life of the barrel,and a lifetime of hunting.
Mine is just under 9 pounds as shown and very comfortably shoots 180 eldms at 2950 or 162s at 3100, feeds like butter out of an AI mag with the plate removed.

 

[5RWill]

I am going to second Will5rs choice
If you don’t mind a little extra work the 7 Sherman Short solves all the shortcomings of 7 SAUM in a short action.Its like a Giant 7mm Dasher. Fire form 100 rounds for Breakin and that will last the life of the barrel,and a lifetime of hunting.
Mine is just under 9 pounds as shown and very comfortably shoots 180 eldms at 2950 or 162s at 3100, feeds like butter out of an AI mag with the plate removed.

Great looking rifle! What barrel length did you go with?

 

[Gilly]

I am going to second Will5rs choice
If you don’t mind a little extra work the 7 Sherman Short solves all the shortcomings of 7 SAUM in a short action.Its like a Giant 7mm Dasher. Fire form 100 rounds for Breakin and that will last the life of the barrel,and a lifetime of hunting.
Mine is just under 9 pounds as shown and very comfortably shoots 180 eldms at 2950 or 162s at 3100, feeds like butter out of an AI mag with the plate removed.View attachment 6956958View attachment 6956960View attachment 6956965

This looks very interesting! If I were going 7mm and was limited to short action it would be hard to not go that route at first glance. I thought to myself last night looks like dasher and 7 saum had a love child!

 

[Glassaholic]

While I love that 7 Sherman, one thing to consider with primarily a hunting rig is if you ever plan on traveling with the rifle, think of the "what ifs", what if the airline loses your ammo, you won't be able to find custom wildcats in the store, but you may be able to find some 7mm SAUM rounds (though I will say we continue to see the round getting less and less attention). Ask yourself this, "what is your intended game" if it's deer and elk then do you really need more than 3000fps from a 175gr pill? Based on @5RWill numbers, the Sherman looks like it gets you about 75-100fps or so more than the standard 7mm SAUM (comparing my LD through a 26" bbl) and while wildcats have always had a special fondness, is it worth all the effort for 75-100fps when the "regular" 7mm SAUM already has the potential to get you close to 3000fps? This is why I chose the 7mm SAUM to begin with, it gave me everything I needed from a standard SAAMI cartridge and then some when COAL is pushed out to 2.950 and greater depending on the magazine you choose.

I still say if you are going to a long action then why choose the SAUM, it was designed for short actions, you might as well go "big" like the 7-300 Norma Magnum - https://westtexordnance.com/7mm-300-norma-improved/

 

[C_R_Slacker]

Great stuff everybody, really appreciate it! I'm considering shifting gears now after talking to a couple gunsmith buddies..... ;{) Still staying with the 7 SAUM since I intend this to be primarily a hunting rifle. Those long lead times on the customs bummed me out so instead of a custom action I think I'm going to see what I can find in a Tikka action. May give up a little accuracy but I like the bolt throw and know they are a sound accurate action.

Throw in the proof barrel and a good stock and it should be a nice shooter.

Comments....

If you're going tikka, i believe they are all the same length action, they just use different bolt stops for short or long cartridges. If that's so, might as well get a long action cartridge as a donor action. Might want to confirm with the tikka experts.

 

[5RWill]

That is the one caveat with wild cats. You’re ammo gets lost you’re kind of SOL. Maybe in the 7 SS you could fireform and neck turn some factory brass but would have to reduce the load. So it would be a pain.

Other than fireforming though it’s about as easy as it gets for a wildcat now that Rich has brass. That said i could understand sticking with the conventional cartridges. I’ll be carrying mine on an elk hunt at some point.

That’s one thing 6.5 saum has going for it if your stuff got lost you could order copper creek or just go prc.

 

[Seandradamus]

Great looking rifle! What barrel length did you go with?

24”

 

[5RWill]

24”

What'd you max out with with the 180gr ELD-M? 2950fps using H1000 or RL26? I'd gladly take 2950fps but am shooting for 3000fps.

 

[Seandradamus]

What'd you max out with with the 180gr ELD-M? 2950fps using H1000 or RL26? I'd gladly take 2950fps but am shooting for 3000fps.

I’m using rl26 with the 180s and rl23 with the 162s.... never hit a real definitive max but got to 3000 with the 180s and sensed the slightest resistance of the bolt lift and my ladder showed an unbelievable node right at 2950 so I left it there, if your heart is set on 3000 then get a 26”
But for me I wanted easy to carry/hold/maneuver/weight first , speed second
Although what does 50’ really get you?
Mine only has 80 rounds on it so it may speed up not sure and I haven’t tried it suppressed which also may add speed. I would also prefer rl23 or h1000 as I know those are very temp stable so I will be trying those behind the 180s too.
I’ll keep ya updated.

 

[5RWill]

I’m using rl26 with the 180s and rl23 with the 162s.... never hit a real definitive max but got to 3000 with the 180s and sensed the slightest resistance of the bolt lift and my ladder showed an unbelievable node right at 2950 so I left it there, if your heart is set on 3000 then get a 26”
But for me I wanted easy to carry/hold/maneuver/weight first , speed second
Although what does 50’ really get you?
Mine only has 80 rounds on it so it may speed up not sure and I haven’t tried it suppressed which also may add speed. I would also prefer rl23 or h1000 as I know those are very temp stable so I will be trying those behind the 180s too.
I’ll keep ya updated.

Let me know yeah i mean 2950 will be fine. It should speed up after 100-150rds i would imagine. I already went 24” to save a little length because i plan on running suppressed.

Honestly I’ve not found any evidence that RL26 swings that much due to temp and yields much better velocities than H1000 in our 6.5 saum with 143s out of a 23” tube. I’ve shot it now in 50F and close to 90F with maybe a 4fps different in average. We’re gettig 3063 with 143gr ELD X with 60gr of RL26. Thus far I’m pleased. Of course I’ll see this winter if it’s really that temp sensitive.

 

[XTR]

Here are some thoughts on your 7SAUM from the F class world. This is quoted from a discussion over on Accurate Shooter. #1 isn't applicable to you if you are going to chamber it as a SAUM and run the high node. (velocities are all referenced to 30" or 32" F class tubes)

Here are some things to think about.
1.)....
2.) If you use H4350 in a .284 and run "about" 2840ish, you will get a solid 17-1800 rounds.
3.) If you use H4350 in a SAUM and run in the 2975-85 range, where the node actually is, your barrel life will be south of 1000. In my mind, the reason you want to run a SAUM is to run at the upper node with the Berger 184 and H4831sc where you might get 1000 good rounds but for use at ONLY BIG matches, unless you want to buy, chamber and develop loads for the SAUM twice per year! If winning is your only goal at 1000 yards in BIG matches, it is hard to beat a SAUM running north of 2950 with the 184! It is an excellent round!

 

[Barney88PDC]

It's all been said in here but here are my thoughts / results. I was in the exact same predicament 5 years ago. I went 7SAUM in a long action because I wanted to shoot the Berger 180 VLD. They like to be jammed in the lands about 0.015". Now having said that I'm sure the throat has eroded since I did load work but it still shoots knots so I'm not messing with a good thing. I just checked zero and velocity last week as I'm headed to Colorado in 3 weeks. The gun shot 2970fps for a long time but last week it was right at 3000fps. I have plenty of rounds on the barrel shot it is well broke in so not sure why it speed up now. Maybe it's because I cleaned it, who knows. I'm running a stout and compressed load of H1000. It may be slightly pressured as I do get ejector marks on Nosler brass but there is no other signs and the rifle shoots this load too good for me to mess with it. I will say that the VLD was VERY difficult for me to get to shoot until I started jamming the bullet. I have a 26" barrel and my loads are 3.030" OAL. Now having said that, really the 7SAUM does everything I need but, because I have a long action, so when I do rebarrel it, I probably will swap to a long action caliber and take advantage of the extra fps I'd gain because well, it's free and why not take advantage of it. I do like a 7mm over a 6.5mm for energy, say a SAUM, (I have a 6.5SAUM right now) because of the added energy you get with the heavy 7mm's or even 30cal's projectiles you just can't practically match that with a 6.5mm. I wanted 1500 lb-ft of energy at 800 yards with a flight time of 1 second. In a short action I'd think a 7mm is maxed out with a 168 grain because a 180 at mag length chews up too much powder colum and you can't get the speed unless you go with a non temperature stable powder and a sill long barrel. If I swap barrels I'd go with either the Gunwerks 7LRM which was designed for the 180 (but has Hornady brass which is a turnoff from my 6.5SAUM results) or I'd go 28 Nosler. Both of those use a standard 0.545" Magnum bolt face. The 7-300 Norma uses a 0.585" Lapua bolt face and I'm not modifing my bolt or buying another one. The 300 Norma and 338 Lapuas I have are on Surgeon XL's which would work fine but they are heavy and I would not build a hunting rig with that action do to their weight.

 

[Dkcampbl]

Thanks for all the advice everybody, there has been some great reading and wisdom sharing. I really appreciate it and why I love SH. Ive got a donor Tikka in 300wm bought. Got a few months wait for the barrel but at this point I'm still thinking the 7saum.

 

[matchbook454]

I am going to second Will5rs choice
If you don’t mind a little extra work the 7 Sherman Short solves all the shortcomings of 7 SAUM in a short action.Its like a Giant 7mm Dasher. Fire form 100 rounds for Breakin and that will last the life of the barrel,and a lifetime of hunting.
Mine is just under 9 pounds as shown and very comfortably shoots 180 eldms at 2950 or 162s at 3100, feeds like butter out of an AI mag with the plate removed.View attachment 6956958View attachment 6956960View attachment 6956965

Sent you a pm