85g Nosler rdf and Varget

[jackinfl]

I have Varget on hand with 85gr Nosler RDF. Does anyone have a recipe? I cant find information on Hogdon or Nosler site.

Thank you

 

[jackinfl]

Called Nosler today. I could not get their load-data.nosler site to open.

Varget is 22.0-24.0 loaded to AR mag length. 24.0 is compressed.

I will try some over the chrono and see.

Hope this helps. Maybe, this round was meant for .224 Valkyrie.

 

[mcfred]

It's the NATO .223 flavor but here (not exactly screamin'). In a SAAMI .223 Remington chamber cut with a Manson reamer the 85s will run about 2.365" cartridge OAL at the lands. They'll be jumping a long way at AR mag-length. Let us know how they do.

 

[jackinfl]

I will. I have something going on with my brass. I bought once fired LC brass ready to load. However, when seating the bullet the projectile "skins" into the case mouth and causes a BULGE right at the case mouth. I measured this bulge at .257 which is jamming in the chamber. Like your picture above from NOSLER shows that dimension should be .253 ALSO, I am getting a forcing donut on the bullet from the seater die. It is taking a considerable amount of force to cam over the Co-AX press.

The below photos show the issues I am having. FYI, I am using a Forster CO-AX Press, Forster Micrometer seating die.

I loaded 20 rounds with 24.o grains of varget and shot 5 of them. The other 15 would NOT chamber. I got the following numbers:
RELOADS 85gr Nosler RDF, 24.0 Varget, FGMM205
2712 AVG: 2717
2713
2716 BC: G1 .498
2722 G7 .245
2723

This is in a Bolt gun, 24" 1:7 twist, .223 Wylde Chamber. MDT polymer mags internal length is 2.550"

Since I had the failure to chamber issue I reached out to a friend who is a TOP TIER gunsmith, HE HAD NOTHING to do with this rifle, and he told me to STOP and get the brass situation sorted out. It is so nice having good people that will share their hard earned knowledge.

I ordered some VIRGIN brass to try and see if it my brass. If it is, it's not that big of a financial loss. I also ordered the correct case guide and trimmer for my Giraud.

IF anyone sees anything that I may try or I am doing wrong. I am listening. NO EGO here. My reloading experience is NOT that great. I do build my own .308 load that I tailored to mirror Factory Hornady 168 AMAX TAP. I can shoot one of each and they go in the same place.

 

[jackinfl]

This was the last seating depth i played with. Will fit into the magazine and from what I read should fit in a WYLDE chamber. However, you can see the burr of bullet jacket material that is causing the large case mouth measurement.

 

[mcfred]

Something is definitely not right there.

No. 1 Chamfer/deburr the case mouths. It's likely a very sharp edge that's peeling the copper jacket back. It could also be from excessive neck tension.
No. 2 The fact that you're crushing the bullet into the case says you're probably compressing the heck out of the powder column such that the bullet can no longer seat any further into the case. This is not the way to produce safe, accurate, consistent ammunition. Try just making a dummy round without any powder and see if you're still deforming the bullet.
No. 3 you're supposed to work up a load to pressure, not just automatically go to 24gr of Varget and pull the trigger. You are putting yourself and others nearby at risk if anything goes wrong.

There is a wide variety of actual case capacities with .223 Remington to 5.56x45 brass. The less capacity with a given amount of powder will have a dramatic effect on chamber pressure. Lot to lot variation on powders may have significant variation in burn rates which also can greatly affect chamber pressures.

I have no experience with the Wylde chamber but I suspect that it will not allow your 2.535" cartridge length to chamber without jamming the bullet into the lands hard, when you (or if you even can) close the bolt. A hard jam of the bullet into the rifling will also greatly affect chamber pressures.

You're literally playing with fire here. I suggest you tread with much caution. Please, follow through on seeking guidance from your friend/gunsmith before continuing or else read in detail some of the Reloading Forum's pinned/stickied threads on How-To assemble quality ammunition.

 

[jackinfl]

I appreciate the advice. Just so we can be clear the hard camming pressure was with dummy rounds so there's definitely something going on with the brass that I will get sorted out. additionally my reasoning for starting with 24 is that I was using 5.56 cases and I would assume most manufacturers would be conservative with what they publish. additionally I have spoken to other shooters that have used even greater charge weights with that combination.

Thank you very much for your input I do appreciate it.

 

[mcfred]

Ok, if there's bullet deformation on an otherwise empty case and there's no razor sharp case mouth then it's likely excessive case neck tension. You can try to relieve some of the neck tension either through annealing the case necks, or you can try and run the brass through the press where ONLY the expander ball/mandrel of your FL dies is run through the neck with a small amount of lube (I use moly powder, others may use something like Imperial Sizing Wax).

In a bolt-gun you can likely get away with 0.002" neck tension. Many people tailor this with bushing-style neck-sizing dies. With your brass, measure the empty case neck (in your case it appears to be ~.243") then try and seat any .224" bullet (without all the shaving or bullet deformation at cam-over, use lube if necessary on a dummy cartridge) and re-measure. The difference between the 2 measurements is your ball-park neck tension. For example, In your case, if your sized cases measure .243" and you seat a bullet and the neck now measures .250" then you're looking at .007" tension. That's a lot in my opinion. That might be contributing to your 85RDF bullet shaving and ogive deformation as depicted in your photos above.



Regarding "conservative" load data. SAAMI .223 Remington load data maxing out at 55,000PSI would be the conservative side of pressures for 5.56 NATO (62,000PSI). North of 62,000PSI is where you start getting flowing of the brass case head into the bolt face's features like ejector marks/swipes or loose primer pockets. If you're getting any new shiny features on brass case heads in concert with sticky ejection or hard bolt lift you're above the design specification for the cartridge brass material itself, not just the SAAMI/C.I.P. pressure standards.

NATO brass should be up to the task of holding "modern" pressures but that's only part of the equation, there's the rifle itself to consider. Most modern guns are designed with modern materials, but guns seem to have a considerable shelf-life. Many 130 year old Mausers are still perfectly functional but the materials (case-hardened low carbon steel) used then often do not support "modern pressures" in the cartridges they're chambered for. Tiny actions like the CZ 527 Mini Mauser and Howa Mini might be made with modern materials but there is significantly less of that strong material holding all that white-hot fire 8" from your face, so they have less pressure-holding ability than a larger action like the Remington 700, Winchester Model 70 or equivelent Savage etc.

Nosler didn't publish the pressures their loads achieved in their specific action/barrel, but they probably stopped at the prescribed MAX industry spec pressure. The fact you're using a bolt gun is added security in the event of over-pressure, but poor form to rely on it. Applying your same loading methods to even larger cases in marginal platforms (e.g. Remington 700 chambered .338 Laupa Magnum) you are flirting with a catastrophic event that can maim or kill.

Learn what you can and apply it. Be safe.

 

[jackinfl]

I spoke with the vendor who supplied the brass, he thinks it may have been his expander ball wore out... I don't know. I have new brass, a FL sizing die, and chamfer tool for .223 for my trimmer, and bullet seating length measuring tools. I will get this sorted out.

Thanks again

 

[DesartDweller]

To revive an old thread. Has anyone come up with any new information on this bullet? I recently acquired a pack of these to try out and this is the only place google has lead me to when searching.

 

[mcfred]

With my limited testing, the 85RDFs are sub MOA out of a 24" 1:8 twist .223 Rem bolt gun at the lands (~2650fps test load) as well as in a 26" 1:8" .223 WSSM, also at the lands up to ~3200fps. (elevation ≥5000' both applications).

There's some more anecdotal evidence searching Accurate Shooter. The general consensus is positive.

 

[16 Gauge]

Just purchased some of these today. So following