Range Report 88eld vs 105 6mm

[Toughestsoldier]

So I’m curious for peoples thoughts on this. In the prs world, There are several shooters who currently are much better then I who compete at a very high competitive level believe that if their 105 gr 6 mm bullets fly over 2800 FPS that they are superior to the 65 combos. Now this includes all aspects of the game( velocity, bc, recoil, so on). With that philosophy wouldn’t an 88 eld at around 2820 also fall into this same expectation being that the bc on an 88 is like .545

 

[Toughestsoldier]

This is not a caliber argument per say but rather a pure numbers analysis.

 

[b6graham]

less energy. less splash. effected more by wind.

not send one at 3020 and you may be closer on downrange performance

btw, 88eldm/95 smk at 3175 is fun

 

[Rocketvapor]

Splash is that much greater with a 105 than an 88?
I know B.C. is the number that sells bullets but what is the difference in Sectional Density between a 105 and an 88?

 

[b6graham]

20% more weight means something

 

[beretta_man11]

On paper, the 88 running 3125 (currently running 3220 out of my 20" 22cm hunting gun) seems to beat a 105hyb @ 2900 in drop and deflection- energy is almost identical.

 

[LawnMM]

The Litz BC is more like .515 than 548

You need energy on target, it's too light, the answer to OPs question: No.

 

[Mordamer]

I have shot quite a few of both. I have several barrels chambered in 6 Dasher that I shoot 105 Berger Hybrids in. I have 2 barrels in 22 BR I have shot 88 ELD's in.

The absolute most important thing to know when entering this discussion for PRS shooting is that consistency Trump's all. I had to learn this the hard way while spending money on bullets/dies/barrels to try and Chase the utmost ballistic combination.

Theoretically, the 22 BR 88 ELD combo beats the 6 Dasher in every category except impact energy. I can run the 88 ELD about 100 FPS faster in the 22 BR than I can the 105 Hybrid in the 6 Dasher.

Recoil: This argument ends up not mattering. In my experience, I can see trace often even on the shortest distance shots with the 6 Dasher. The 22 BR has less recoil, but I have already reached the point where less recoil stopped mattering.

Drop: The difference isn't enough to matter. Either you know your drop in all conditions or you don't. No amount of flat shooting cartridge buys you a hit if you don't have your drop figured 100%.

Wind: This is the one every one likes to play the numbers with. I did too. I have found that it also doesn't matter. For PRS you will live and die based on your wind holds and no amount of ballistic advantage makes the difference. I have seen too many people shoot consistently in tough winds at over 1,000 yards with 6 BR's to believe any different at this point. If your wind call is off by 3 MPH at 1,000 yards then it won't matter what cartridge you are using. Consistency again trumps all other factors. It is much more important to have the bullets drift the same amount every shot than it is to have them drift as little as possible.

Splash: In my experience the splash difference is hard to detect. I have shot both bullets a lot and I can see splash from the 88 just as good as from the 105. If the bullet lands in a spot where there isn't much splash signature you are screwed with either choice.

Finally, consistency trump's all. I have found my loads with 105 Hybrids to be more consistent than my loads with 88 ELD's. This is the only thing that matters. Some people surely have found the opposite. PRS was won this last year by a 110 ATIP going 2,775 FPS. It's easy to beat the ballistics of that load. It would be very hard to beat the consistency of that load.

 

[260284]

I am using .274 G7 for the 88gr ELDM out of my 22BR at 3000 to 3100 fps depending on the load and powder used. They have been consistant out to 1200+ yards and are $.18-.19 each. I spotted hits and misses past 1200 with an Ares ETR last year in local matches. Upping my glass quality this year and having another barrel spun up for a backup. 1800 plus on the current on and still going strong.

I would like to see Hornady release the specs on the 90 gr A-Tip.

 

[Rocketvapor]

22 cal 90 gr A-Tip™ Match Bullet
MACH 2.25 0.585 G1 0.295 G7
MACH 2.0 0.575 G1 0.289 G7
MACH 1.75 0.556 G1 0.280 G7

No length or tip measurement.
They claim 1:7 is OK.

Compared to the 88ELD-M

0.545 G1 0.274 G7
0.534 G1 0.268 G7
0.528 G1 0.266 G7

 

[nick338]

I have shot quite a few of both. I have several barrels chambered in 6 Dasher that I shoot 105 Berger Hybrids in. I have 2 barrels in 22 BR I have shot 88 ELD's in.

The absolute most important thing to know when entering this discussion for PRS shooting is that consistency Trump's all. I had to learn this the hard way while spending money on bullets/dies/barrels to try and Chase the utmost ballistic combination.

Theoretically, the 22 BR 88 ELD combo beats the 6 Dasher in every category except impact energy. I can run the 88 ELD about 100 FPS faster in the 22 BR than I can the 105 Hybrid in the 6 Dasher.

Recoil: This argument ends up not mattering. In my experience, I can see trace often even on the shortest distance shots with the 6 Dasher. The 22 BR has less recoil, but I have already reached the point where less recoil stopped mattering.

Drop: The difference isn't enough to matter. Either you know your drop in all conditions or you don't. No amount of flat shooting cartridge buys you a hit if you don't have your drop figured 100%.

Wind: This is the one every one likes to play the numbers with. I did too. I have found that it also doesn't matter. For PRS you will live and die based on your wind holds and no amount of ballistic advantage makes the difference. I have seen too many people shoot consistently in tough winds at over 1,000 yards with 6 BR's to believe any different at this point. If your wind call is off by 3 MPH at 1,000 yards then it won't matter what cartridge you are using. Consistency again trumps all other factors. It is much more important to have the bullets drift the same amount every shot than it is to have them drift as little as possible.

Splash: In my experience the splash difference is hard to detect. I have shot both bullets a lot and I can see splash from the 88 just as good as from the 105. If the bullet lands in a spot where there isn't much splash signature you are screwed with either choice.

Finally, consistency trump's all. I have found my loads with 105 Hybrids to be more consistent than my loads with 88 ELD's. This is the only thing that matters. Some people surely have found the opposite. PRS was won this last year by a 110 ATIP going 2,775 FPS. It's easy to beat the ballistics of that load. It would be very hard to beat the consistency of that load.

Are you implying the consistency of that load is due to the projectile's consistency or the actual load itself?

 

[Toughestsoldier]

I would guess that something to do with the projectile itself is harder to tune. It might be partially due to the fact .224 is not been researched near as hard in the heavies compared to the 105s in 6 mm.

 

[nick338]

I would guess that something to do with the projectile itself is harder to tune. It might be partially due to the fact .224 is not been researched near as hard in the heavies compared to the 105s in 6 mm.

I'm referring to the comment about the consistency of the 110 A tip load and what that was based on.

 

[702lineman]

I have shot quite a few of both. I have several barrels chambered in 6 Dasher that I shoot 105 Berger Hybrids in. I have 2 barrels in 22 BR I have shot 88 ELD's in.

The absolute most important thing to know when entering this discussion for PRS shooting is that consistency Trump's all. I had to learn this the hard way while spending money on bullets/dies/barrels to try and Chase the utmost ballistic combination.

Theoretically, the 22 BR 88 ELD combo beats the 6 Dasher in every category except impact energy. I can run the 88 ELD about 100 FPS faster in the 22 BR than I can the 105 Hybrid in the 6 Dasher.

Recoil: This argument ends up not mattering. In my experience, I can see trace often even on the shortest distance shots with the 6 Dasher. The 22 BR has less recoil, but I have already reached the point where less recoil stopped mattering.

Drop: The difference isn't enough to matter. Either you know your drop in all conditions or you don't. No amount of flat shooting cartridge buys you a hit if you don't have your drop figured 100%.

Wind: This is the one every one likes to play the numbers with. I did too. I have found that it also doesn't matter. For PRS you will live and die based on your wind holds and no amount of ballistic advantage makes the difference. I have seen too many people shoot consistently in tough winds at over 1,000 yards with 6 BR's to believe any different at this point. If your wind call is off by 3 MPH at 1,000 yards then it won't matter what cartridge you are using. Consistency again trumps all other factors. It is much more important to have the bullets drift the same amount every shot than it is to have them drift as little as possible.

Splash: In my experience the splash difference is hard to detect. I have shot both bullets a lot and I can see splash from the 88 just as good as from the 105. If the bullet lands in a spot where there isn't much splash signature you are screwed with either choice.

Finally, consistency trump's all. I have found my loads with 105 Hybrids to be more consistent than my loads with 88 ELD's. This is the only thing that matters. Some people surely have found the opposite. PRS was won this last year by a 110 ATIP going 2,775 FPS. It's easy to beat the ballistics of that load. It would be very hard to beat the consistency of that load.

This is probably the best statement I have seen on the hide in a while. A friend of mine and I were discussing this the other day. It doesnt matter if you are shooting a 6.5prc or a 308, you still have to make a wind call. It doesnt matter if it is .2 mils or 2.0 mils, your gonna miss if you call it wrong either way. What matters is if you miss the first one, that you can center punch the follow up because it does the exact same thing every time!

As far as the dasher being more consistent, in my experience(having multiple dasher barrels, and hot rod heavy 22s), I'm going to chalk this up to the bergers being more consistent than the hornady. I've shot a lot of both, and while eld bullets aren't bad at all, they are not as consistent as hybrids in both weight and bto

 

[Mordamer]

I'm referring to the comment about the consistency of the 110 A tip load and what that was based on.

I'm referring to the general load. It's easy to have a flatter trajectory and less wind drift than a 110 A-Tip at 2,775 FPS.

 

[nick338]

I'm referring to the general load. It's easy to have a flatter trajectory and less wind drift than a 110 A-Tip at 2,775 FPS.

I get that. You stated it would be very hard to beat the consistency of a 110 A tip at 2775 fps. I wanted to know what that was based on.
Your particular load out of your barrel that is more consistent than everything else you've shot or was there more to it?

 

[b6graham]

I get that. You stated it would be very hard to beat the consistency of a 110 A tip at 2775 fps. I wanted to know what that was based on.
Your particular load out of your barrel that is more consistent than everything else you've shot or was there more to it?

Low SD. No pressure issues. Consistent brass as nd necks. Well prepped brass. Not pushing anything hard. Low vertical spread at distance

 

[Mordamer]

I get that. You stated it would be very hard to beat the consistency of a 110 A tip at 2775 fps. I wanted to know what that was based on.
Your particular load out of your barrel that is more consistent than everything else you've shot or was there more to it?

I'm saying ballistically there is nothing special about that load, but it still won. I don't shoot the A-Tips. I wish I did. I just haven't shelled out the cash for them. I was there at the finale and there is no doubt that the top shooters loads had to be incredibly consistent to put up high hit percentages.

 

[jzerfoss]

The Litz BC is more like .515 than 548

You need energy on target, it's too light, the answer to OPs question: No.

I've used hornadys numbers with the 88s on MOA targets out to 980yds and they are accurate.... Past that I'm not sure. That's from a 7 twist 223 going 2840fps.

 

[LawnMM]

I've used hornadys numbers with the 88s on MOA targets out to 980yds and they are accurate.... Past that I'm not sure. That's from a 7 twist 223 going 2840fps.

That's good news, I'm going to try some myself. Having said that, I've shot 80s past 1k at a local match, and for local/practice matches it's adequate, but for a national match, I don't think the horsepower is there.

6x47L with 109s is my go to for big matches.

 

[jzerfoss]

Op,

As far as energy or splash goes. The mass majority of 2 day PRS matches I've shot in the past 2 years have had flashers on targets past 800yds. It was my understanding it was a rule that was implemented but I could be wrong. Regardless I've shot thousands of 105s and hundreds of 88s and comparatively the difference is like a 105 vs 115. Meaning it's very hard to tell the difference.

As far as wind goes my most recent comparison head to head was with a 6.5x47 shooting 140 grain hybrids at 2790fps vs my 223 shooting 88gr ELDs 2840fps at a 980yd target. My friend and I were shooting at the same target one right after the other and my elevation and wind was .1 mil more. The fact that I only needed .1 mil more of wind at that distance really impressed me.

The 88gr ELD is an impressive bullet for the cost.

 

[nick338]

I'm saying ballistically there is nothing special about that load, but it still won. I don't shoot the A-Tips. I wish I did. I just haven't shelled out the cash for them. I was there at the finale and there is no doubt that the top shooters loads had to be incredibly consistent to put up high hit percentages.

Now we are getting somewhere. When you make a statement that a specific bullet and velocity would be hard to beat because of consistency, specifically related to a brand new projectile, it generates curiosity.

The Berger 105 has been around for a while and has been the go to bullet for matches across the board, I'm guessing because it's easy to tune and for load consistency, as opposed to some bullets that are finicky when it comes to velocity nodes, seating depth, etc.

I've used the 115 DTAC in a 6XC with ok results but that was several years ago so my interest in 6mm is starting to peak again. Was just trying to get a feel for why the 110 A tip would be hard to beat.

 

[Toughestsoldier]

Some you guys have the first hand knowledge. What cartridge was the 110s at 2700ish in?

 

[LawnMM]

Was just trying to get a feel for why the 110 A tip would be hard to beat.

The price is what drums the A Tips out of the running, in my opinion.

They're more expensive than the new Berger's by a long shot.

If the A Tips shoot better than this, for their price, I don't care.

 

[Sheldon N]

Some you guys have the first hand knowledge. What cartridge was the 110s at 2700ish in?

6 BRA w/ 110 A-Tips won the PRS finale at 2775 fps. I believe Tate was also running 6BRA at the NRL finale when he won it but am not 100% sure. I know @jkvinyard was in my squad at the NRL finale and was running a straight 6BR with 110 A-Tips at about the same speed and took 4th place. I shot his gun (Impact/Foundation) afterwards at some of the longer targets in the wind and it was a hammer.

 

[Toughestsoldier]

I like the idea of running a 110 bullet 2750ish in my 6 br. But it may be a time before I can find a bullet that’s not going to break the bank to do that

 

[Covertnoob5]

6 BRA w/ 110 A-Tips won the PRS finale at 2775 fps. I believe Tate was also running 6BRA at the NRL finale when he won it but am not 100% sure. I know @jkvinyard was in my squad at the NRL finale and was running a straight 6BR with 110 A-Tips at about the same speed and took 4th place. I shot his gun (Impact/Foundation) afterwards at some of the longer targets in the wind and it was a hammer.

Yup BRA at The nrl finale.