Range Report A ballistic puzzle; or how to help a newbie figure out the wonder that is Ballistics AE

[8mmDale]

I use Ballistics AE and this question sort of ties to Ring's thread about the software. I'm having trouble getting accurate firing solutions with the software and I am not sure if I am doing something wrong (most likely) or maybe I've discovered some strange anomaly to long range shooting. After running my data through the truing process, my calculated velocity keeps changing. I've run it through a half dozen times, and every time I get a new velocity which is lower than the one before it.

Here are the pieces of said puzzle:

Weather: Started out early AM and it was 50 degrees, got up to about 60 degrees as the sun came out.
Wind was about 6-12 mph changing alot heading 9 o'clock.

7mm Rem Mag
.284 cal 168 grain Sierra Match King bullets
Remington 9 1/2 M Primers
65.3 grains H4831SC
Winchester brass
Excellent load so far, VERY accurate at 100 yards.

Data for truing:

-1.0 minutes @ 200 yards
-5.5 minutes @ 400 yards
-6.5 minutes @ 500 yards
-12.0 minutes @ 700 yards
-25.0 minutes @ 1000 yards

This produced an initial velocity of 2848 fps which seems pretty low for this load (darn near book max). Each progressive truing gave a lower reading, the final one I took was like 1800 something (no way thats correct). The round is flipping the steel plate almost all the way around, its got a TON of energy at that distance.

I'm trying to work up the calculations to shoot the 1 mile plates and Ballistic AE doesnt seem to be cooperating. I knew it was wrong because it was telling me I needed 130 clicks of elevation (1/4 min increments) at 1000 yards, when the truing data was only 100 clicks.

Anyone want to run this through there program and see what they get? Maybe pass on some insight as to why I am getting strange results or where I should start to look?

THANKS!

 

[varmint slayer]

What's the atmospheric pressure where you are? Could be several things going on here. Scope not tracking true, bad data in the truing function ect. Are you entering your drop and making sure the units are MOA avid not inches? Also did you uncheck the drop is relative box?

 

[8mmDale]

What's the atmospheric pressure where you are? Could be several things going on here. Scope not tracking true, bad data in the truing function ect. Are you entering your drop and making sure the units are MOA avid not inches? Also did you uncheck the drop is relative box?

For some reason I did not record the atmospheric pressure that day, and I cant even recall what it was. I did enter the drop in MOA units and I did click off drop is relative. Scope not tracking true? Do you mean that 25 minutes on my turret might not actually be 25 minutes of elevation?

 

[varmint slayer]

For some reason I did not record the atmospheric pressure that day, and I cant even recall what it was. I did enter the drop in MOA units and I did click off drop is relative. Scope not tracking true? Do you mean that 25 minutes on my turret might not actually be 25 minutes of elevation?

Ok well what the average pressure for your area?

Also yes I meant exactly what you said about the elevation. What scope are you running?

 

[BobinNC]

I know nothing about Ballistic AE and your troubles with it, but I do have a few comments about the 7mm Rem Mag and your loading.

Your load is slightly above max for a bullet of similar weight, but a completely different shape, as listed by Hodgdon below. Your initial velocity of 2848 FPS seems to be in the correct ballpark with that load. Further running your load @2848 through JBM yeilds 1000 yd drops of:

1000

-8.3 MILS

-28.6

MOA

<tbody>
</tbody>

170 GR. SIE RN

Hodgdon

H4831

.284"

3.270"

63.0

2749 FPS

46,300 CUP

65.0

2806 FPS

48,900 CUP

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[8mmDale]

Ok well what the average pressure for your area?

Also yes I meant exactly what you said about the elevation. What scope are you running?

Just got the average; 28.82" Hg. I am running a Bushnell Tactical Elite LRS 10x40 mil dot (1/4 MOA turrets).

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Hey bud, I've done this before as well. I figured out later that every time you go in there to true it it will adjust your muzzle velocity. So lets say I'm shooting a .308 with factory 175's and I don't have a chrono, so i guess my muzzle velocity at 2600 fps. Well I shoot a bit and go out and true it, my trued velocity comes out to 2632 or something like that (which should be about right). Now If I was to go back into the program and true it again, you are basically telling the program that 2632 (for the pretend .308 i'm shooting) is not the correct velocity and it needs to true it accordingly. So the velocity has to be slower than 2632 if your low at whatever distance.
Each time you true it, its going to think that the muzzle velocity is slower bc you are truing the current mv. I"m going to guess that the first MZ you got (2848) would be fairly close. I would clear all the data out, get good atmospherics inputted, then go true it based of the mv you think you are or should be getting. (if you know your DOPE that is). It further the distances the better, i'd say start at 6-700 and just out out to 1000 in 100 yard increments.

With programs like this you have to put good information in to get good info out. Hope that makes sense

With the MV of 2848 I got 106.05 MOA of elevation at 1760 yards

 

[8mmDale]

I know nothing about Ballistic AE and your troubles with it, but I do have a few comments about the 7mm Rem Mag and your loading.

Your load is slightly above max for a bullet of similar weight, but a completely different shape, as listed by Hodgdon below. Your initial velocity of 2848 FPS seems to be in the correct ballpark with that load. Further running your load @2848 through JBM yeilds 1000 yd drops of:

1000

-8.3 MILS

-28.6

MOA

<tbody>
</tbody>

170 GR. SIE RN

Hodgdon

H4831

.284"

3.270"

63.0

2749 FPS

46,300 CUP

65.0

2806 FPS

48,900 CUP

<tbody>
</tbody>

This is the load data I am using from Sierra:


Dale

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

What is your DA or altitude, rifle data, zero range, and what MV did you start with or did you work backwards (truing) from the get go? If I use your posted data and MV (2848) I can't get your numbers.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Also make sure when you true the MV (if you are using MOA) that you put how much it was off. So your shooting at 1000 yards and Ballistic AE says your supposed to hold 30 moa to get there, in actuallity it took 28.5 to get there so you would enter -1.5 moa 1000 yards.


No idea if those numbers are even realistic, I shoot mil/mil and haven't looked at MOA in a long while.

 

[BobinNC]

This is the load data I am using from Sierra:


Dale

I don't doubt that's what Sierra says, but most of their data is near to useless to me. I have always found that the powder makers data is always closer to real world, than bullet makers data. I've chrono'ed 1,000's of rounds, for myself and others, and found this holds true across the board. IMHO and YMMV

 

[8mmDale]

What is your DA or altitude, rifle data, zero range, and what MV did you start with or did you work backwards (truing) from the get go? If I use your posted data and MV (2848) I can't get your numbers.

the rifle is a standard, off the shelf 1963 Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag. 24" barrel with 1/9 twist. I worked backwards with the data I had, I did not know velocity going in. Average altitude is 952 feet above sea level

 

[8mmDale]

Also make sure when you true the MV (if you are using MOA) that you put how much it was off. So your shooting at 1000 yards and Ballistic AE says your supposed to hold 30 moa to get there, in actuallity it took 28.5 to get there so you would enter -1.5 moa 1000 yards.


No idea if those numbers are even realistic, I shoot mil/mil and haven't looked at MOA in a long while.

See I wasnt putting it in as the difference, I was putting it in as what I actually hit the target at. So my -1.0 wasnt the difference between suggested and actual; at 200 yards I was at 1.0 minutes.

 

[8mmDale]

I don't doubt that's what Sierra says, but most of their data is near to useless to me. I have always found that the powder makers data is always closer to real world, than bullet makers data. I've chrono'ed 1,000's of rounds, for myself and others, and found this holds true across the board. IMHO and YMMV

Ill have to check it out at hodgons sight, thanks for the tip. I will make a comparison, I dont think I have before.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

I have always used inches there. Just easier for me. There is a youtube video about truing ballistic ae thats pretty useful, can't remember for the life of me what its called.

 

[varmint slayer]

Well running the numbers you posted and your pressures and temps, it shows a 3120 fps velocity. Your book shows it should be 3000 so it's a little over. Other problem is 3120 doesn't match up with your real world results. Adjusting the muzzle velocity to 3080 gets the 1000 yard dope to match up but that's it really. So like I said, either your scope isn't tracking true, or your distances to the target aren't what you think they are. I would verify the ranges are actually the range you think they are. If those are good then I would run a box test on the scope.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

See I wasnt putting it in as the difference, I was putting it in as what I actually hit the target at. So my -1.0 wasnt the difference between suggested and actual; at 200 yards I was at 1.0 minutes.

Well that's part of it although I've been manipulating the heck out of the possible data to arrive at your numbers and no-go. I would like to be able to point you in the right direction but............. My guess is you either don't have enough results to rule out shooter error or your distance to target(s) is incorrect. Sorry, no help!

 

[varmint slayer]

A ballistic puzzle; or how to help a newbie figure out the wonder that is Bal...

Well that's part of it although I've been manipulating the heck out of the possible data to arrive at your numbers and no-go. I would like to be able to point you in the right direction but............. My guess is you either don't have enough results to rule out shooter error or your distance to target(s) is incorrect. Sorry, no help!

You don't have to put in the difference. If you turn the "drop is relative" to off, then you put in the actual adjustment it took to get to that range. If you want to put in the difference like you are saying then you leave the drop is relative to on.

 

[8mmDale]

You don't have to put in the difference. If you turn the "drop is relative" to off, then you put in the actual adjustment it took to get to that range. If you want to put in the difference like you are saying then you leave the drop is relative to on.

AHHH Thats extremely helpful. Thanks alot guys for all the help/tips

 

[varmint slayer]

AHHH Thats extremely helpful. Thanks alot guys for all the help/tips

I asked you early on if you unchecked or I guess I should have said selected "no" on the drop is relative option lol. If you don't it will give you some crazy low velocities. But you still have an issue due to the data not adding up with what you saw. Double check the ranges you shot at. If they are off even 10-15 yards it can mess with you when trying to dial in your muzzle velocity.