A&D FX120i labscale reloading upgrade with V2 auto trickler review.

Aimsmall55

Aimsmall55

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Oct 23, 2010
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#1
Recently while searching through the internet I found a device that plugs into your A&D FX120i lab scale and turns it into an actual powder thrower. It's called the V2 Auto Trickler and it consists of a motor driven powder thrower, a connector cord for the thrower to connect to the scale, a few plastic "bands" that are used to give turn the trickler motor, a rubber tare holder for your powder pan, and a slide that adjusts how fast it actually throws your powder.
Heres how it operates. You use a scoop such as the yellow powder scoops that come with Lee die sets and get your charge weight set on the A&D. You then press a set button on the scale and it then programs your charge weight into the part of the scale that throws the powder.
After that you simply throw or pour ( using a charge master or a manual "scoop") powder onto a pan and pour it on to the A&D scale. It then throws the final charge in about 2 to 3 seconds. So if you're wanting to throw exactly 44.0 grains of powder you would place 42.5 or so onto the A&D and the trickler would automatically throw the remaining 1.5 grains and be within 2/100's of a grain.
This piece of equipment is nice if you're looking for exact tolerances on your charge weights however it does take a little more time because you're having to add to the pan that situated on the A&D scale. However, if you're looking for something that gets you dead nuts on your weight it's bad ass. They also make it for the Sartorious.
Heres the website.
http://www.autotrickler.com/index.html
Ive used it to load about a thousand rounds so far and have not had one issue with it.


 

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#5
Had mine for about 9 months and it's great. I bought the A&D FX-120i from Cambridge Environmental and got a great deal. My trickler is version 1 and I can see the benefits of V2. I haven't upgraded mine, I may or may not.

It will dispense to within +/- 1 kernel of RL-15 or Varget as an example. When programmed for and dispensing 44.0 Grains, it will usually hit 44.0 exactly, but it's not unusual to go over by .02 grains (1 kernel). If you're anal like me, you'll pick 1 grain out and be on exactly 44.0 grains.
 
#10
Sixfivesavage said:
I wish he would sell complete kits, scale and trickeler together to make it easier.
Click to expand...

The last time I spoke with Cambridge they were selling the complete system and would do the set-up and programming of the trickler for an additional $20. The cost of the entire package including set-up and shipping is somewhere around $850 USD, give or take.

 
#15
Aimsmall55 said:
Nope you have to get the trickler separate from the scale as I'm pretty sure they have no business relationship whatsoever
Click to expand...

Actually, Cambridge Enviro is working with Adam and selling the trickler. They can also configure and install the unit for you for a small fee. Just confirmed this with Adam himself via email.
 
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#16
You know I just saw that. Hopefully he'll make a good bit of money on this. It's a great addition to a wonderful scale.
I wonder how this compares to the Prometheus in terms of speed and accurate charge weights ??
 
#17
When I bought my A&D FX-120i, I did a fair amount of research. I don't remember all of the details now, but another German based balance manufacturer or a possible parent company of them had a nasty habit of going around and buying up smaller competitors. A number of online blogs indicated it was fairly common opinion/knowledge that this practice was intended to limit competition and as a result, keep prices high. A&D/AND was and still is much more competitively priced and offers a lot of bang for the buck. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it resolves to within 1 granule of Varget or RL-15. If it "overcharges" by 1 granule. I just pick 1 granule out of the hopper and it's right on. I can't imagine that spending another $500 to $800 is going to eliminate having to periodically do that.

For my needs, I am delighted with the FX-120i and the Autotrickler. When I load with this set up, I don't expect to be cranking out thousands of rounds. IIRC, I can charge and load ~ 50 rounds in an hour or so. That also includes checking OAL and runout. I can't load rounds at the rate of my XL650, but I have no expectation that I could. Apples and Oranges different.
 
#18
I've had my FX120i for a while, from back when they were considerably cheaper. It really made a difference on target keeping my vertical consistent at longer range vs my Hornady Autocharge. Which was NOT good. Chargemasters seem noticeably better.

I picked up a V2 Auto trickler this year and it's been great. It was very straightforward to set up and get running, it comes with excellent instructions. Running my Hornady progressive on full auto (sizing, priming, charging, and seating all at once) I made 100 rounds of match quality ammo in 32 min using the Autotrickler. I've loaded for a few matches now since I've got it, no complaints. Trying to get the fastest precision loading process possible has been an objective for a while now, and I think I'm getting pretty close to as good as I'm going to get.
 
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#19
I just got one of these setups (V2) about a month ago. There's a short learning curve to setting it up, but once you do, it's fantastic. I built a VERY heavy table exclusively to run this unit on.

Here are some tips I've picked up so far:

1) I was lucky enough to get an invitation to visit a government standards laboratory where balances that make a Sartorius look like a toy are in daily use. The techs there taught me a few things about using magnetic force-restoration balances that I would not have guessed on my own, and doing what they told me appears to make a big difference.

When I went into the clean room where Class I weights are calibrated, I was shocked to see that all the balances (inside two cabinets each inside the clean room) were all kept with their calibration weight ON the pan. This would fuck up a load cell scale, and it was my first question as to why they did that. The answer was that MFR balances are totally different from load-cell technology, and MFR balances experience less drift if the calibration weight is kept on the platen when not in use. Amazingly, the balances are all networked to a control system, and they are automatically recalibrated daily - there is an arm inside the cabinet that reaches out, lifts the weight, and replaces it on the platen at the appropriate times. The calibrations are all stored and traceable - you can go back and review an individual balance's history since it was installed, right up to what it's doing in real time. What's this mean for us? The technicians told me that I should set up my balance exactly like theirs - keep the 100g weight on the platen and the breeze guards mounted, and put in a cabinet if possible. This is overkill at the precision level we're talking about (0.001), but I like doing things that way.

The next tip was that when I wanted to use the balance, I should take the forceps and lift and replace the 100g weight about 30 cycles, allowing the scale to zero between putting it back on. It was explained to me that MFR balances do warm up slightly because of how they work, and 30 cycles would bring the magnet up to full operating temperature before calibration and use. They explained that it would already be at about 70% of operating temp because of storing the calibration weight on the platen, and this procedure cuts down drift considerably in the first 30 minutes of operation. I tried it with and without the pre-heating routine, and they're right: it virtually eliminates drift with this unit vs. just letting the scale sit unloaded, even if you turn it on an hour or two before you use it.

As far as the A&D/autotrickler combo, I figured these things out:

When you set it up, take your time and level the shit out of it. Make sure it's on as solid a surface as you can manage - the stepper motor in the trickler does vibrate some when it's running very slowly, and if you're on a flimsy table two things will happen - it will walk around a little bit and you'll have to keep repositioning it to keep the dispenser over the pan, and the low speed vibration will make the scale a little twitchy.

1) if you really want to go fast, set up your powder measure in reach, and have it throw about 2-3 grains light. Pick up your pan, put it up against the bottom of the measure to prevent spillage, and pull the lever. Put the pan back on the A&D, and let it go. I can have a charge in the case in about 7 seconds from the time I pull the lever on the powder measure. If it fucks up, you can either pick the kernel out or add one, or you can just toss the charge back into your measure and try again. If you find that it fucks up less often over the course of a loading session, that appears to mean that you didn't cycle the weight enough to bring it up to full operating temp before commencing to load.

Quick checks: when you're ready to go, tare the balance with your pan on it, then remove it and note the reading on a piece of paper or a label in front of you. This way, when you take the pan off, if it doesn't return EXACTLY to 122.47 or whatever the hell your pan weighs, you will know something is wrong and you need to stop and figure out what it is. Sometimes a kernel of powder falls onto the platen and you don't notice it, or a piece of dust/dog fur/hair/whatever landed and you didn't see it. If the platen is clean, re-tare and start up again. Remember to STOP the dispensing cycle before you zero it and re-tare it, or it will start dumping powder onto the platen before you replace the pan. This sucks and is a pain in the ass to clean up. Use non-magnetic forceps to pick up the kernels without disturbing your setup.


Five stars, though. I loaded 200 Win Mags yesterday in what seemed like minutes. That would have taken me 40 seconds per charge on my PACT, and the accuracy would be MUCH worse.

Buy with confidence.
 
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#20
Excellent info, QuietShootr. I teach new techs at our lab about the warm-up routine and some are skeptical but all you have to do is a systematic study and the numbers will be right there in your face. Calibrating near the range of use is the way to go also. For a handloading system, building a system to reduce drafts will pay off. My rig uses a plexiglass surround with rubber flaps to stick your hands through. One other tip is to do a cleanup after each session. Fine dust from the powder will fall over the area and you don't want that to accumulate.


 
#21
Finally broke down and ordered this setup -

Anyone have a lead on an RCBS scale pan? Everyone seems to be out or back ordered. Cheers

*update - found one.
 
Last edited:
#26
Papagallos said:
Are there updates from anyone still using this setup? Concerns or praises are welcomed as I am close to buying the complete setup from Cambridge Environmental.
Click to expand...

No concerns at all, it works really well. Adam is really good to deal wiith too. The Area 419 base is a great upgrade too, quieter and more stable.
The FX120 is so much more stable and accurate compared to the cheaper digital scales I have used
 
#28
Papagallos said:
I couldn't resist any longer. It was this or a Prometheus II. I am not Prometheus II rich, so I opted for the complete FX-120i setup from Cambridge Environmental.
Click to expand...

You wont regret it. Did you get the auto throw as well or just the trickler? If the auto throw the only thing Ive discovered is that it hates the little tiny ball powders such as cfe blk. They are so small they get in the rotating part of the throw and bind it up after 5 dumps or so. But for 12-20 gr the trickler alone puts the balls out perfectly fast, faster than a chargemaster.
 
#29
spife7980 said:
You wont regret it. Did you get the auto throw as well or just the trickler? If the auto throw the only thing Ive discovered is that it hates the little tiny ball powders such as cfe blk. They are so small they get in the rotating part of the throw and bind it up after 5 dumps or so. But for 12-20 gr the trickler alone puts the balls out perfectly fast, faster than a chargemaster.
Click to expand...

I purchased the scale along with the Auto-Trickler and Auto-Throw. It's the reason I listed my Harrell Classic Culver measure. In hindsight, the Harrell would have worked too. Something didn't feel right about not purchasing the complete setup though. :)
 
#30
My only complaints are with the powder pan set-up. It's flimsy... like, VERY flimsy.

I ordered "The Kern'l Dump'r" from PVA; mainly because I need a better alternative ASAP. Area 419 is working on their own powder pan, which will be a good bit lighter (seems like I recall a weight difference of like 30-40%) than the PVA. I'll order that when it becomes available, and then sell the one I like the least.


Okay, I guess I have more complaints...
The Lee powder dispenser... hopper is just too small. It should be twice the size. That's Lee's fault though.

The cover set-up of the scale... It would be nice if there were some way that the whole thing were secured to the scale rather than resting upon it.

I'd also like to see aluminum cover and supports become available, along with an aluminum block for the lee dispenser.



Those additional complaints however, are not serious issues; they are simply "It would be nice if..." type issues. The powder pan, that is a real issue. There is zero stability in the handle of that thing. Dump a load of 70gr in there and it's bouncing when you have it in hand. I believe the PVA and Area 419 pans are going to both be a substantial improvement. The guy who came up with and is selling these kits, should really consider talking to the Area 419 guy about offering an upgraded kit that comes with an aluminum trickler base, powder cup, dispenser block. I feel like those are upgrades that would sell very well in a kit.
 
#32
I bought a set of small stainless steel measuring cups at WalMart, using the second smallest on my A&D while the smallest is used to put powder in the auto-drop and auto-trickler. No splash, no static cling. The larger two went into the gurfriends cooking stash. I shortened the handle a bit to fit inside the windscreen when I'm not using the scale.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/BRADSHAW-...p-Set/45912114
 
#33
DP425 said:
My only complaints are with the powder pan set-up. It's flimsy... like, VERY flimsy.

I ordered "The Kern'l Dump'r" from PVA; mainly because I need a better alternative ASAP. Area 419 is working on their own powder pan, which will be a good bit lighter (seems like I recall a weight difference of like 30-40%) than the PVA. I'll order that when it becomes available, and then sell the one I like the least.


Okay, I guess I have more complaints...
The Lee powder dispenser... hopper is just too small. It should be twice the size. That's Lee's fault though.

The cover set-up of the scale... It would be nice if there were some way that the whole thing were secured to the scale rather than resting upon it.

I'd also like to see aluminum cover and supports become available, along with an aluminum block for the lee dispenser.



Those additional complaints however, are not serious issues; they are simply "It would be nice if..." type issues. The powder pan, that is a real issue. There is zero stability in the handle of that thing. Dump a load of 70gr in there and it's bouncing when you have it in hand. I believe the PVA and Area 419 pans are going to both be a substantial improvement. The guy who came up with and is selling these kits, should really consider talking to the Area 419 guy about offering an upgraded kit that comes with an aluminum trickler base, powder cup, dispenser block. I feel like those are upgrades that would sell very well in a kit.
Click to expand...

Any idea when the Area 419 powder funnel is coming out?
 
#35
Diabolus said:
Any idea when the Area 419 powder funnel is coming out?
Click to expand...

The powder pan/cup, they have not said exactly when it will be available. They've only said "soon, very soon".

I got the PVA in the mail the other day. It's pretty good quality. It is certainly not light though, especially with the center cone in it. And mine didn't come with the screws to attach the handle to the cup itself. Was fortunate enough to have some spare screws that were the right diameter and thread pitch. Had to take a cut-off tool to them to trim off the excess length. Of course, that resulted in marring up the cup.

So I'm not too happy about the lack of screws, but otherwise, it's solid.
 
#37
QuietShootr said:
I just got one of these setups (V2) about a month ago. There's a short learning curve to setting it up, but once you do, it's fantastic. I built a VERY heavy table exclusively to run this unit on.

Here are some tips I've picked up so far:

1) I was lucky enough to get an invitation to visit a government standards laboratory where balances that make a Sartorius look like a toy are in daily use. The techs there taught me a few things about using magnetic force-restoration balances that I would not have guessed on my own, and doing what they told me appears to make a big difference.

When I went into the clean room where Class I weights are calibrated, I was shocked to see that all the balances (inside two cabinets each inside the clean room) were all kept with their calibration weight ON the pan. This would fuck up a load cell scale, and it was my first question as to why they did that. The answer was that MFR balances are totally different from load-cell technology, and MFR balances experience less drift if the calibration weight is kept on the platen when not in use. Amazingly, the balances are all networked to a control system, and they are automatically recalibrated daily - there is an arm inside the cabinet that reaches out, lifts the weight, and replaces it on the platen at the appropriate times. The calibrations are all stored and traceable - you can go back and review an individual balance's history since it was installed, right up to what it's doing in real time. What's this mean for us? The technicians told me that I should set up my balance exactly like theirs - keep the 100g weight on the platen and the breeze guards mounted, and put in a cabinet if possible. This is overkill at the precision level we're talking about (0.001), but I like doing things that way.

The next tip was that when I wanted to use the balance, I should take the forceps and lift and replace the 100g weight about 30 cycles, allowing the scale to zero between putting it back on. It was explained to me that MFR balances do warm up slightly because of how they work, and 30 cycles would bring the magnet up to full operating temperature before calibration and use. They explained that it would already be at about 70% of operating temp because of storing the calibration weight on the platen, and this procedure cuts down drift considerably in the first 30 minutes of operation. I tried it with and without the pre-heating routine, and they're right: it virtually eliminates drift with this unit vs. just letting the scale sit unloaded, even if you turn it on an hour or two before you use it.

As far as the A&D/autotrickler combo, I figured these things out:

When you set it up, take your time and level the shit out of it. Make sure it's on as solid a surface as you can manage - the stepper motor in the trickler does vibrate some when it's running very slowly, and if you're on a flimsy table two things will happen - it will walk around a little bit and you'll have to keep repositioning it to keep the dispenser over the pan, and the low speed vibration will make the scale a little twitchy.

1) if you really want to go fast, set up your powder measure in reach, and have it throw about 2-3 grains light. Pick up your pan, put it up against the bottom of the measure to prevent spillage, and pull the lever. Put the pan back on the A&D, and let it go. I can have a charge in the case in about 7 seconds from the time I pull the lever on the powder measure. If it fucks up, you can either pick the kernel out or add one, or you can just toss the charge back into your measure and try again. If you find that it fucks up less often over the course of a loading session, that appears to mean that you didn't cycle the weight enough to bring it up to full operating temp before commencing to load.

Quick checks: when you're ready to go, tare the balance with your pan on it, then remove it and note the reading on a piece of paper or a label in front of you. This way, when you take the pan off, if it doesn't return EXACTLY to 122.47 or whatever the hell your pan weighs, you will know something is wrong and you need to stop and figure out what it is. Sometimes a kernel of powder falls onto the platen and you don't notice it, or a piece of dust/dog fur/hair/whatever landed and you didn't see it. If the platen is clean, re-tare and start up again. Remember to STOP the dispensing cycle before you zero it and re-tare it, or it will start dumping powder onto the platen before you replace the pan. This sucks and is a pain in the ass to clean up. Use non-magnetic forceps to pick up the kernels without disturbing your setup.


Five stars, though. I loaded 200 Win Mags yesterday in what seemed like minutes. That would have taken me 40 seconds per charge on my PACT, and the accuracy would be MUCH worse.

Buy with confidence.
Click to expand...
I have a satorious 64 and it does drift a bit during the first few minutes of having it. I want to try what you suggested about leaving the calibration weight on the scale when not in use. I got a couple questions
1. Did they recommend leaving the scale on or in sleep mode?
2. If let on should I zero the scale with weight on or leave it showing the weight?
The satorious will go into sleep mode or you can turn it completely off. I only turn it completely off if it’s going to be several weeks before I use it again. Supposedly all sleep mode does is turn the display off, but leaves the scale and internals actually on. I can’t confirm if that’s really the case or not.
 
#39
I've had my FX for six months or so and love it. He didn't have the powder dump ready for sale when I bought mine. After reading through this thread I went ahead and ordered one.

The heavier powder pan seems like a good idea. For those with the PVA, is all that weight really necessary? I saw the youtube video and it does look nice but seems like it's heavier than needed.

Whatever heavier pan I get I'm planning on making a small 'stand' for it rather than using the flimsy plastic one that came with the auto-trickler. I want to make something where the pan sits perfectly in place every time and doesn't move.
 
#40
parshal said:
I've had my FX for six months or so and love it. He didn't have the powder dump ready for sale when I bought mine. After reading through this thread I went ahead and ordered one.

The heavier powder pan seems like a good idea. For those with the PVA, is all that weight really necessary? I saw the youtube video and it does look nice but seems like it's heavier than needed.

Whatever heavier pan I get I'm planning on making a small 'stand' for it rather than using the flimsy plastic one that came with the auto-trickler. I want to make something where the pan sits perfectly in place every time and doesn't move.
Click to expand...

I don't think the weight is "necessary" per-say. Area 419 will supposedly have their pan available this week last I heard and it's about half the weight.

However, I don't think their handle is as long as the PVA unit. This is likely where the weight comes into play. The PVA handle is fairly long, and the heavier cup may be needed to prevent it from tipping over. I intend on order a 419 pan when it's available and I can make a better assessment at that time.
 
#41
Here is my take of the entire setup.

It's sweet. Very sweet. I could have done without the Auto-Throw. You definitely don't need it. The trickler tends to shoot past the intended target close to fifty percent of the time. Not much of a big deal, but pulling a kernel is something that you will be doing often. Make sure to under throw a charge about two full grains below your intended target. Doing so allows the trickler to work as it should. And pace the speed of the trickler. If it works too fast, you are definitely going to go over the intended charge every time.

The plastic cup and holder that are included are of very poor quality. Get rid of it. Plus, it's plastic and so is everything else. Before throwing charge loads, I wipe the entire pieces of equipment with static reducing dryer sheets. The scale has been left on for about 5 days without experiencing any drift at all. The dryer sheets seem to help.
 
#42
If your overthrowing 50% of the time and pulling kernels than you don't have it setup properly. I've been using the entire setup since they started offering all 3 in a package. It is designed to throw within .02 every time. My setup does that every time and I never have to pull kernels.. you need to throw 3g under, adjust your ramp down speed and the tilt of the trickler. All of this depends on the powder type your using and needs adjusted from say Varget to 8208...
 
#43
For example, I threw 50 charges yesterday. The intended target was 62.88. Twenty six were spot on, 19 were 62.90, and 5 were 62.92. It never under threw a charge. Not bad. I think it's setup properly. Any slower and I'd probably throw it in the trash. :)
 
Last edited:
#44
So you had 5 that were over spec by .02...It's designed to throw within .02 so 62.86 or 62.90 are within spec....That's how Unit was designed per my conversation with Adam at AutoTrickler.

You do know that your load won't by affected by .02 down range right? My setup is twice as fast as my chargemaster..
 
#49
Well here's 28 shots for a seating depth test with your same variations with an SD of 5.3...once I picked my optimal seating depth and shot another 30rds SD dropped to 4.4...all with the same variations your seeing..

I've done extensive load testing and I have yet to see these .04 variations translate to anything remotely detrimental downrange in either SD's or accuracy... Shit those of us using CM for years with single digit SD's and tiny littke groups were having much larger variations than this .04...


 
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#50
Had one of Adam's tricklers for quite a while now. Before he started offering his own bulk thrower, I built my own servo controlled automatic bulk dispenser from a Harrell's powder measure and worked with Adam to integrate my automatic measure and arduino controller with his trickler controller. Later, he started offering his own bulk thrower using the cheaper Lee measure to get a product out with a more reasonable price point than what I built.

Regarding measuring cups, I currently use stainless 3oz camping shot glasses from amazon... high enough to prevent powder splashes, easy to weight match via sanding (things go fast if you use 2 weight matched cups in rotation), but they may be too tall for how Adam uses the stock draft shield with his bulk thrower. I like PVA's undercut perimeter and center spike arrangement to deflect kernels into the undercut perimeter and prevent splashes. The Area 419 cup looks good too. Don't have much of a problem with splashes on my setup as the stainless glass is about 2" tall plus I can easily vary the speed that my Harrell's automatic powder measure dumps the bulk charge to prevent splash.

Regarding occasional overcharges... trickler finishing speed and trickler angle do play into it, but what I noticed is that many overthrows were caused by "bunching" of the powder kernels in the trickler tube and it dropping several kernels at once near the end of the ramp down leading to an overshoot of the target weight.

What I did to minimize this was to attach a piece of stiff wire to trickler, ran it above the trickler spout, and at the end bent it into a "U" and had the short leg of the "U" protrude into the trickler spout about 1/2". I bent the wire until so it's sitting slightly off the bottom (6 o'clock) position of the inside of the trickler tube. What the wire does is it hits and "breaks up" any multi-kernel piles in the trickler tube and knocks them down to single kernels riding in the grooves of the spout so it can more reliably dispense those last couple of kernels, 1 kernel at a time. Adding the wire to break up any bunched/clumped kernels significantly cut down the amount of overthrows and also made the trickler less sensitive to tilt and finishing speed.
 
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