A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

[DocJekyll]

Recently I was crunching some numbers and I think that it may be time to sell my M1A Scout EBR. As much as I love her, she is expensive to shoot.

Ive been thinking instead, to use the money from the rifle (nearly $2400.00 now) to purchase the new Bushmaster ACR Enhanced. Im aware that they had a recall but I believe that now fixed would be a very good system to use. Further more, I feel that parts, ammo, and equipment are easier to come by and cheaper; as will the ammo.

What does everyone think? ACR vs M1A Scout EBR. Discuss...

 

[1stIDvet]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

SCAR 16...or 17.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

I heard some bad things on the SCAR from some buddies that have been running them lately in Afgan. Why would you pick the SCAR over the ACR?

 

[JeffLebowski]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

The gunwriter Dvid Fortier got good results from the SCAR at 500 yards as written here.

 

[Asm1]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

SCAR 16,, RCPD here on the hide was sub MOA at 550 yards with BH reman 77gr Saturday..
He did bust a thumb a few times on the handle recip. operation when held far back like an AR15,Just has AR15 ERGO drilled in the brain.

Its a nice rifle,But I dont like them over a Quality AR15..

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SCAR 16,, RCPD here on the hide was sub MOA at 550 yards with BH reman 77gr Saturday..<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">
He did bust a thumb a few times on the handle recip. operat</span>ion</span> when held far back like an AR15,Just has AR15 ERGO drilled in the brain.

Its a nice rifle,But I dont like them over a Quality AR15.. </div></div>

Thats one of the things that has turned me off to the SCAR. I like the non recip handle of the ACR. I tend to hold carbines further forward and thumb above the bore. More comfortable for me to go back to and I tend to get a quicker sight picture like that as well.

Ive still been looking for a decently done range report for the ACR though. Has anyone seen one around?

Nevermind. I found one. Linky.

Btw, I appreciate the link. Ill take a look.

 

[1stIDvet]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

People have heard good and bad from the troops using them in Afghanistan. I have heard both also. Most of the bad are because of personal preference to the M4 ergo's, not reliability or accuracy issues. The reciprocating charging handle that some people are butt hurt about is not a big deal, SOCOM wanted it and some people prefer it. M1 garands, M14/M1A's and AK47's have them... Im not going to get into a discussion on which weapon is better (SCAR vs ACR). Alls I know is that FNH hasn't recalled their rifle, they won the military contract and their weapon systems are currently being used in combat. Im just recommending it over the ACR because I have one (16s) and I love it. I have shot the ACR, it is nice, it did not have any failures when we shot it, but the SCAR felt better.


-If your not shooting much because you cannot afford .308 ammo for your M1A then I would sell it to purchase a rifle that you could shoot more often. What good is a rifle you cannot afford shoot it?

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

My thoughts exactly. I have been told it takes a bit of time to get used to the ACR ergos, and that the SCAR is more similar to the AR in that aspect, but after holding both I feel the ACR may be a bit more comfortable for me. Although I am always open for intelligent pro/con discussion.

I did some math though that was a bit disturbing for me. I bought the scout for $1700.00, EBR stock for $700.00, and then add the optic and whatever else I want to put on it to make it what I want like a new flash supressor and some other small parts. It makes for an expensive build, over $3400.00. Now the ACR Enhanced I have found for $2200 on a few sites. This rifle has almost everything that I want in a carbine, with the ability to change to different calibers, sights I would want, as well as a comfortable 6 position stock for me. All of this for $2200 means that I can get an optic or use one I have, and then buy mags and ammo and there we go. That and the operating costs... 1 box of 7.62 is about 17 bucks for 20 where the same in .223 is about 8 or 9. It adds up rather fast.

Putting 1000 rounds down it comes down to the numbers. +-$17.95 per 20rd box for some cheap soft point 7.62 vs +-$9.95 for 5.56 for 20rds. Thats a substantial difference, one that I would rather have more in the pocket for when it comes down for it.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

Have you priced 1000 round cases of 7.62x51 NATO surplus?
There is some good stuff available, it's not super cheap like it was 8 or 9 years ago, but it's not super expensive... just a thought.

 

[shane45]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

After 2 matches running around with the SCAR, transitions, baracades, left and right up and down, not once did I ding my thumb. However sitting on the damn bench doing some optics testing I did it a few times so go figure! I have handled but not shot the ACR. The SCAR felt considerably better to me even if it is uglier

. The couple turn offs for the ACR for me was that the wieght felt oddly distributed, the ambi safety plain sucked, and I did not like how much space there was between the ejection port and bolt carrier. It looks like it would easily let alot in there. I suppose the last could be a perception and may not be a reality. Few trhings bug me about the SCAR too. I hate that the side rails are plastic. I hate that if you remove a side rail a bolt falls inside the rifle and you have to pull the barrel to put it back! I hate the cheap ass torx screws they used whose teeth chip like icicles!

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

That was some of what I heard. Of course my friends like to disassemble everything they get their hands on first to know what its like on the inside. lol. They said it didn't feel like a very solid weapon and although it shot superbly they didn't like it because of that. They also said they smacked their thumbs a lot.

I think that having a system that I can be very familiar with is important. Although the SCAR and ACR are different from the M4/M16 family I think they are both very nice approaches, each has its strengths and weaknesses. In fact, I did a little list of likes and dislikes for each. Tell me what you think...

ACR- Likes
Interchangeable parts for different calibers. (5.56, 7.62x39, 6.8)
Solid Polymer Construction
Piston System
Cold hammer forged barrel
kits available to rapidly change barrel length/caliber
fairly light weight
Non-reciprocating charging handle.
Grip comfort (felt great in low ready and on target)
Reduced perceived recoil over M4
AMAZING TRIGGER
Folding 6 pos stock
Accuracy

ACR- Dislikes
Price
Charging handle pulls offset 20* before moving the bolt
That they had a nasty little recall...

Scar- Likes
Light weight
familiarity
piston system
Mod-ability (a word?)
iron sights
price
Reduced perceived recoil over M4
Folding 6 pos stock
Hammer forged barrel
Accuracy


Scar Dislikes
Plastic bits
disassembly problems
reciprocating charging handle
Inability to change calibers easily

Scar Unknowns - Since I have not shot it...
Recoil?
Muzzle rise?


Am I missing anything on the SCAR? I hope not... I may have a little lack of info on that department....
I feel like right now my personal preference is still leaning to that of the ACR though. But I feel like the reasons for me seem sound. It may be different for the rest of you. Perhaps its a shooting style and body shape/size thing as well. Maybe I just need to shoot the SCAR. Anyone want to loan me theirs for a weekend to try to change my mind? =P

H20 Man, I did a lot of research on ammo and with how much I shoot that extra cash saved could mean either another 1000 rounds or possibly get to use it to sign up for courses to continue furthering my skills as a tactical shooter. There is also the realm of consistency that I have decided needs to be followed to since I use a 5.56 normally. As much as I love my rifle and hate to sell it, I feel if Im going to have a Go-to gun in my home I want it to be something a little more versatile and easier to find ammo for. I hate searching places to find good deals when deals in other calibers are staring me in the face.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

It sounds like you would be happiest with a nice reliable 16" AR and some Pmags

 

[bcw1284]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

SIG 556

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like you would be happiest with a nice reliable 16" AR and some Pmags
</div></div>

Honestly I have some serious ergonomic dislikes about the AR platform. I believe that they have been addressed in the ACR and SCAR. The ARs are great rifles don't get me wrong, but I want something with a forward charging handle, ambidextrous safety, and the interchangeable caliber thing really seems to be a great idea, one that I would be able utilize.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcw1284</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIG 556</div></div>

Thats one I havn't heard almost anything about....

 

[splean]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

This is easy, BOTH!

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: splean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is easy, BOTH!</div></div>

You see everyone, Splean is one of those out of the box thinkers. We need more people like him.

One of each... Why didnt someone suggest this sooner??? I guess Ill just have to flip a coin on which one goes first.

 

[shane45]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

Just some random notes for your consideration.

I dont prefer the SCAR because of ergonomics, recoil, muzzle rise, accuracy, I prefer it because all these are good but the baseline engineering and its stark reliability thus far leads me to believe this weapon has the greatest potential for abuse/neglect and will keep going. Without any real good reason other than teotwawki, this one is important to me.

The SCAR, XCR, and a colt 6940 all run back to back in multi gun meets IDPA style competition, none of the others are as fast in my hands as the Colt.

Quick change barrel is not important to me. Easy change barrel is.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

Could you describe the muzzle rise a little more as compared to the M4?

That was another reason I like the ACR, its bore is very low compared to the butt stock plate.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

I'm not sure I understand what you don't exactly like about the ergos of the AR. Are you a southpaw? You could get a side charging upper and ambi safety. As far as caliber change, what's wrong with separate uppers? $?

I'm contemplating classes/carbine comps down the road myself and I'm leaning very heavily towards an Adams Arms piston 5.45X39 upper myself. I don't see how you can get ammo cheaper than this. As far as the side charger goes, I can see the benefit on a space gun for when you're in position, but I don't see a great advantage otherwise.

Which ever way you go, I'd be interested in hearing the follow up and how it works out for you.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure I understand what you don't exactly like about the ergos of the AR. Are you a southpaw? You could get a side charging upper and ambi safety. As far as caliber change, what's wrong with separate uppers? $?

I'm contemplating classes/carbine comps down the road myself and I'm leaning very heavily towards an Adams Arms piston 5.45X39 upper myself. I don't see how you can get ammo cheaper than this. As far as the side charger goes, I can see the benefit on a space gun for when you're in position, but I don't see a great advantage otherwise.

Which ever way you go, I'd be interested in hearing the follow up and how it works out for you. </div></div>

Naww, Im not a southpaw, in fact im extremely comfortable when shooting right side and uncomfortable on the reaction side. However thats exactly why I practice on the southpaw side. With an Ambi gun it would make those things easier.

The uppers idea had me thinking at one point, but fully built uppers are big and bulky compared to a barrel and bolt. I could stow that in an assault pack to switch calibers on the fly when needed (like the 7.62x39) instead of carrying a bag full of uppers. Its a solid option IMHO.

Due to where I place my hand when shooting standard the forward charging handle will decrease my amount of movement needed to clear weapon malfunctions. It feels like a very natural movement to me.

With my AR build Ive done little work arounds that get me there but having something truly built for that type of work seems the route for me.

Ive already sold my EBR stock to a buddy so now I have my Scout on Gunbroker. Ill use those funds and some extra I have saved to get new kit.

 

[1stIDvet]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

You should shoot the ACR and SCAR to make your final decision. It wouldn't make sense to spend $2,000+ on a rifle because you "think" you like it better. After shooting both you will have a much better idea. I'm sure if you tried hard enough you can find someone around you that has either one. Im always happy to let people shoot my SCAR at the range. As far as your buddies saying the SCAR didn't feel like a solid weapon, well, they're wrong. Its lightweight, but strong. Are they para rescue or combat controllers? Just curious to see what AF units are receiving them.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

I think I may have mis-spoke. They didnt say it wasnt a solid weapon, I believe the guy that told me said "it feels like a toy" if I recall correctly. Of course that is what they said about the M16 when it was first issued right? Most of the guys Ive talked to are CCs. A couple PJs have them that Ive seen but I havn't had a chance to stop them to ask.

I do want to shoot both before I make my final decision. Its a lot of money to spend on a weapon when the uncle sam isn't fitting the bill.


EDIT: I found a guy in northwest FL that uses the SCAR that has agreed to let me take it to the range and try it out. Ive got another friend who recently purchased an ACR in GA that will be joining us. I guess its going to come down to the range test after all.

 

[DeSnifter]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

Personally I didn't like the weight distribution of the ACR when I handled it. Way too much weight up front for a rifle with so much polymer. Who cares if you have a 7 pound rifle if it is all in the front. I also didn't like how wobbly the charging handle on the ACR was. Didn't seem like quality construction. But that is just my opinion, which is worth about as much as a box of chicken fingers (probably less). I am a fan of the scar, and the reciprocating charging handle doesn't bother me as I am used to having them on M1A's. VLTOR also makes an adapter for the scar if you are not a fan of the rear stock.

http://soldiersystems.net/2010/10/04/vltor-ar-stock-adapter-for-the-fn-scar/

You lose the folding ability but if you already have an M4 style rear it will help you transition to the new ergonomics easier. I understand your pain regarding the M1A with a sage stock as I own one myself. The weight on the SCAR heavy makes it seriously tempting!!!

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

have you considered reloading?

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

Feel tested both while visiting Clyde Armory yesterday.
The SCAR feels much better in my hands than the ACR.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">have you considered reloading?</div></div>

I would but I dont trust my own skills at reloading. Ive heard too many horror stories of slam fires using reloaded ammo. If I cant trust myself I sure as @#$* aint gonna be trusting anyone else`s reloads.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Feel tested both while visiting Clyde Armory yesterday.
The SCAR feels much better in my hands than the ACR.</div></div>

I'm going to the range this weekend with my buddies and I will feel and test fire both rifles. Ill make my decision after Ive done some weapons manipulation drills, accuracy tests, and get the general feel for both.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

spend good money on a good rifle, get the sig 556.
hope this helps.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: A thought...What should I do... ACR or EBR ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">spend good money on a good rifle, get the sig 556.
hope this helps.</div></div>

I agree it is a good rifle, however I wasn't comfortable with it when I tested one early this year.