Sidearms & Scatterguns Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

[clmayfield]

With handguns, there is a lot of discussion about reliability. Terms like jam-o-matic are used and there are always claims of a pistol that ha never choked.

In my personal point of view, if you have a handgun that has never jammed on you, you just haven't shot it enough. Everything fails.

I recently started logging malfunctions with my Baer noting the type of failure and which magazine it occured with.

So far, I have a squib round at around 400 rounds and a failure to lock back (first one with this pistol) at 600 rounds. I am now to 800 rounds. I am figuring, on average, I will see one failure per thousand or so rounds.

I bought an HK-45c because plastics are known for their reliability. I ended up with a stove-pipe at about 550 rounds, which is all of the rounds I have through the gun. Obviously, I need to shoot it a bunch more to determine a true average failure rate.

I am wondering if anyone else examines this closely and what they are seeing.

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

By far most of the "failures" are due to two things: ammo and maintenance.

At the shop people brought in guns all the time that were "jam-o-matics". Opening up the gun revealed several ounces of residual gunpowder coating EVERYTHING.

A non-broken, clean & lubricated firearm shot with proper technique with thoughtfully selected ammo is incredibly difficult to jam. Irregardless of make. Certain model designs are more tolerant and insensitive, but proper conditions exist for them all.

 

[bm11]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

Unfortunately I have had a bit of pistol ADD in the past and never have gotten crazy high round counts. I had a TRP go a thousand or so rounds with zero malfunctions before I bought a Nighthawk that had a couple in a similar amount of rounds. I have had a number of HK's with 500-1000 rounds and zero cumulative failures between them.

My current glock 17 has seen 3k rounds with a number of failures, but all related to the web of my hand catching the slide. I had a beavertail added by Glockworx and have had no issues in the 300 or so rounds since then.

Finally, I have a Buckmark with 20k or so rounds. It's a .22, when it was more fresh it would eat everything and only fail 2 times or so per 500 rounds, now it is ammo sensitive and averages a failure every 15-20 rounds. I really wish I could get it to shoot like it used to, I probably should do some maintenance.

I wish I still had some logged info, but most of it wouldn't be too conclusive as I have never had a 10k round centerfire. I always was looking for "the right one." I have committed to shooting this Glock a ton, and I'll keep an eye on the failures for you now that my frame is modded. It should be noted that I have tried a number of different spring configurations to try to get a good trigger pull in this Glock, and one combination provided about 1 failure in 10 rounds, light strikes. I switched the striker spring back to stock, as well as the safety plunger spring, and it has been ok since.

 

[71firebird400]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

Interesting topic, most are unwilling to admit that their prized possession may have malfunctioned that one time (but it was due to limp-wristing, right? definitely not the guns fault!). I've had a G29 for several years and several thousand rounds through it and I can say that pistol has never done anything wrong except for when I put a KKM barrel in it. With the OEM barrel it's never malfunctioned. I then bought a G19 with similar expectation and with 115gr ammo it would fail to return to battery about 1 in 100 times, rather consistently. My brother has a cheapo Taurus 1911 that has run extremely well; two stovepipes in the life of the gun (probably 1-2000 rounds through it). A friend has a Nighthawk T3 that has had one malfunction in it's first 500 rounds which I thought was pretty good considering how tight the gun is. Revolvers have proven to be very reliable for me, outside of excessive fouling/unburnt powder messing with extraction.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

There is certainly a lot less to go wrong with a revolver. Failure to extract, stove pipes, failure to lock back. None of these are even possible with a revolver. Cylinder timing would be the number one issue, I would guess. And even when it is not timed just right, it would probably still go bang a lot of the time.

 

[Glock45]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

Good question(s)!!

<span style="font-weight: bold">Glocks</span> - My G17 had some FTF issues at about 5k rounds. I sent it to factory since I wasn't as well versed with them at the time. They pretty much replaced any part that was $30 or less. My G36 had a few mag issues at first, but has been solid since. Otherwise my other Glocks have been awesome and trouble free unless I intentionally induced the malfunction. From officers I work with, I find that the recoil assembly gets worn and/or magazine springs get worn.

<span style="font-weight: bold">1911's</span> - My most recent Talon II Bobtail has given me ZERO malfunctions from first round to my current 700. My GRP Recon has been more picky, but that has been due to magazines. I have my practice mags and my carry mags. Carry mags end up becoming practice mags. I don't mind malfunctions in practice, but I consider them unacceptable in the "oh crap" moment.

My Colt Combat Elite took some breaking in. On my metal guns, I will lube slide rails every 50-100 rounds for first 500 or so. I don't want it running metal on metal. Now my Colt has been good.

In my earlier years of shooting I had a Gold Cup that had issues, but in retrospect I believe it was me limp-wristing.

<span style="font-weight: bold">AR rifles</span> - always a mag issue when I've had issues. I've not had any AR for over 5k rounds though, so I know I'm not keeping them /shooting them enough to get to many issues. Some at work have had the buffer springs get weak causing feeding issues as well.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Revolvers</span> - As you've stated, kinda difficult to get malfunctions with this platform.

<span style="font-weight: bold">.22 Autos (pistols & rifles)</span>I've had nicer .22's that shoot cheap ammo better and "lower end" .22's that require good ammo. But hell, that's half the fun with .22's especially is ammo experiments!!

Any and all gun can and will malfunction. Practice should find that place so it's not found in combat/duty/personal encounter. But, all too many shooters "plink" and then think that is defensive shooting practice.

-G45

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

I will admit that my firearms jam.
My Baer will stovepipe or fail to lock back about one time each 200. My SPR will fail to extract if I fail to lube chamber and let sit loaded for a few days after firing suppressed. If I keep clean, all is well. Now, if I do not care to clean, I just oil a CTG and feed into chamber and let sit, take out when I go out next time. Works fine.

 

[JoeRe]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is certainly a lot less to go wrong with a revolver. Failure to extract, stove pipes, failure to lock back. None of these are even possible with a revolver. Cylinder timing would be the number one issue, I would guess. And even when it is not timed just right, it would probably still go bang a lot of the time. </div></div> This is false assertion! Revolvers are much more prone to malfunction when any dirt, debris or dust are on the scene than are pistols. Weak primer strikes much more common as well.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My Baer will stovepipe or fail to lock back about one time each 200.</div></div>

That would not be acceptable to me. Failure to lock back could be mag compatibility or an issue with a slide stop. Or it could be that ammo is not compatible with recoil spring given that you have stovepipes as well. There is definitely something amiss there. How many rounds do you have through that spring and what loads are you useing?

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

Carter,
I would guess about 500 rds or so. It has done it two or 3 times. I use Fed. Hydra Shock 230 grain.
Like others mentioned, I think I fail to hold firmly and that is when it happens. It is a very tight gun and extremly accurate. I carry it to shoot coyotes off the tractor, the occasional hog, copperheads etc. Not for protection.

 

[Jethro21]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

My duty glock 22 has seen many thousands of rounds, probably close to 15k in the past 7 years (just put 1k through it last tuesday). I have had only one malfunction and it was caused by a broken pin, but even that I wouldn't call a problem- it kept shooting just wouldn't lock back.

I have a Sig Nitron 1911 that I have around 2k through, I have had 2 or 3 failure to return to battery, but each was when the gun was very dirty.

Every gun has ammo it likes and doesn't. Some are picky about being clean and others dirty. This is true of all brands. Some glocks in my department have frequent issues when dirty (weird) and I own a Llama 1911 clone that was my dad's (brand not known for being incredibly reliable) which I haven't been able to find a round it doesn't like, clean or dirty.

I think the most important things are that: 1. you are confident in the gun and 2. you can execute a failure drill (tap, rack, assess).

 

[excess]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

I think the FBI did a rounds to failure test amongh the competitors for its last sidearm contract, and I think you can probably find the results if you search hard enough.

Also, Tood Green does some interesting tests at pistol-training.com that you might find interesting. His latest is on a 1911.

 

[Miles2go]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

Jethro, that's an impressive Glock, pretty awesome.

I've had revolvers malfunction, as stated above: weak hammer or hard primer depending on how you look at it. I've shot some horribly dirty revolvers and haven't experienced a malfunction due to it, just binding that slowed the cylinder. I've sure had bullet creep in hard-hitting magnum loads. That can really bind things up, but I think it's mostly a hunter's problem.

My XDm in 45 has over 1000 store-bought FMJs, and almost 1500 200g rnfp rounds through it. I had a failure to extract. After 2000 rounds I went ahead and cleaned it, no problems so far.

I agree that if you don't have malfunctions you don't shoot enough. My 1911 race gun will jam every 250rnds (I can sure clear it quickly which is kinda good practice if you look at it that way). My Para P-12 will malfunction after a couple hundred rounds due to being dirty, clean it's a runner.

Never a problem with my 625, lots and lots of rounds through that.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jethro21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My duty glock 22 has seen many thousands of rounds, probably close to 15k in the past 7 years (just put 1k through it last tuesday). I have had only one malfunction and it was caused by a broken pin, but even that I wouldn't call a problem- it kept shooting just wouldn't lock back.

I have a Sig Nitron 1911 that I have around 2k through, I have had 2 or 3 failure to return to battery, but each was when the gun was very dirty.

Every gun has ammo it likes and doesn't. Some are picky about being clean and others dirty. This is true of all brands. Some glocks in my department have frequent issues when dirty (weird) and I own a Llama 1911 clone that was my dad's (brand not known for being incredibly reliable) which I haven't been able to find a round it doesn't like, clean or dirty.

I think the most important things are that: 1. you are confident in the gun and 2. you can execute a failure drill (tap, rack, assess). </div></div>

Really? 1 malfunction in 15k rounds? Or you had lots more and just attributed them to ammo, mag or technique? Expound, please. A malfunction is a malfunction no matter the cause. Why did you just put 15% of the rounds thru the gun in one day out of 7 years? Yeah, I'm callin BS.

 

[Jethro21]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

What would you like me to expound upon? My gun gets regular maintenance, new parts yearly, cleaned after every shooting session and zero reloads. All the ammo it has ever seen is Speer Lawman practice ammo (180gr) and Speer Gold Dots (180 hollow point). I have never had a failure to fire, failure to feed or failure to eject. I have had parts break- front of the main spring (should be replaced every 3k rounds), couple of pins and the slide stop spring. I also change out magazines regularly, supplied by my department.

I am a police officer and a firearms instructor for my department. We do not have issues with money for ammo and any time I wish to go our range I am able to do so and shoot all I please. My squad is a proactive street crimes squad who get far more training than most cops in most departments. We shoot at for several hours one day each week, after which we are involved in some type of training.

I did put a case through it last tuesday, this was prior to my weekly training and only because the rest of my squad was at court and I was shooting alone. I typically shoot some and then run drills for us.

Guess if you still think bs its on you brother. If you would like more info, feel free to pm me.

 

[Genin]

Re: Acceptable / Typical Failure Rates

Lets see. Of the pistols I own currently:

Glock 19 Gen 3: approx. 4k rounds through this gun (zero failures/malfunctions)

Glock 26 Gen 3: approx. 600 rounds through this gun (zero failures/malfunctions)

CZ P-07 Duty 9mm: approx. 700 rounds through this gun (zero failures/malfunctions)

M&P 9: approx. 1500 rounds through this gun (zero failures/malfunctions) only had on squib round. Ammo issue, not gun issue.


Guns I've gotten rid of purely because of being jam-o-matics:

Para Ord. Tac S: This gun sucked balls! No matter what magazine, ammo etc. It just would not cycle more than 2 rounds without a FTE, FTF, etc. I was told give it a 1k break in period. I made it to 600 rounds before I just traded off the POS.

Glock 19 Gen 4: First production run. Was horrible. FTE about once every 150 rounds. Brass ejection was erratic. Horrible gun. Once again this was a first production run Gen 4. I think they have these things ironed out. Just decided to get rid of this POS for a Gen 3 and haven't looked back.