Accuracy International AT stock upgrade???

[Scotch_egg]

I have a 2014 Accuracy International AT with a wonderful 6.5X47 Barrel.

I was all set to buy the AX butt stock when I came across the MPA chassis.

I have followed Sam’s chassis from the outset but it becomes expensive when I have to buy the AX butt.

I use my rifle purely for the range and PRL comps here in the U.K.

 

[Luvman]

I have an AT with AX stock. It fits my needs perfectly.

For range and competition use I would go for the SamB chassis and AX stock as I happen to prefer the ergonomics of the factory stock and grip. Sam’s chassis adds the features up front that match shooters prefer without changing the factory feel.

 

[Supersubes]

What do those three options do for you on the range or during a comp that your current stock wont do for you now?

 

[blbennett1288]

Personally, I really like the AT with the thumbholes. I honestly think that it is the only way a stock AT should be run and is more comfortable than the AX when you wrap your thumb around the grip.

The margins are so close now that if you want the AX stock, just get an AX.

Having said that I voted for the Accuracy Obsession w/ AX stock, this seems to fix my minor gripes of the AT and AX.

I have owned the AT and AX and currently run an AX

 

[samb300]

I’m biased but I chuckled that my name in the poll is sambo3000. Kinda wish that was my real user name, it’s way better ?

 

[samb300]

@Scotch_egg Im not going to try to sell you on my setup, since you already know about it. I’ll just ask if you’ve ever run an MPA chassis? Personally, I think the AI is leaps and bounds better in terms of robustness, adjustability, and construction. Make the MPA a folder and it’s not even close. The MPA is also not designed around the AI action (nor the AI action designed for an R700 chassis). The trigger area is highly modified to get the AI trigger pack to fit, and then it can’t be bonded.

To @reubenski ’s point, yes, the “all in” price with the AX buttstock will be expensive. There’s no getting around the $800 buttstock and the fact that I can’t make one that’s better. But I believe an AT buttstock on my chassis will shoot circles around a stock AT from a prop. Better than in an MPA? Probably not better but similar I’d say. I’m genuinely trying to price the chassis kit in a very sane territory for being a one man operation, and it’ll be up to the end user which buttstock they want.

 

[samb300]

I have not. I’ve just shot a regular custom-R700 build in an MPA chassis.

I have no doubt the MPA-AT shoots awesome from a bag/prop. But when I had my MPA I was less than impressed with the buttstock adjustments (set screws) compared to the bomb proof AX buttstock.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Personally, I really like the AT with the thumbholes. I honestly think that it is the only way a stock AT should be run and is more comfortable than the AX when you wrap your thumb around the grip.

The margins are so close now that if you want the AX stock, just get an AX.

Having said that I voted for the Accuracy Obsession w/ AX stock, this seems to fix my minor gripes of the AT and AX.

I have owned the AT and AX and currently run an AX

Thumb hole, you say? Accuracy Obsession you say? Bam!

 

[samb300]

I was just wondering if you had what it was that you felt was off, as in not designed for the action. Especially after shooting yours

I can’t remember who it was, but someone sent me pics of theirs that showed how the trigger pack inlet area had to be milled (aka Dremeled) to actually fit the trigger plate in. In addition to everyone needing to machine their front action screws to the correct length...

 

[AIAW]

I’m biased but I chuckled that my name in the poll is sambo3000. Kinda wish that was my real user name, it’s way better ?

Tucker301 can probably make that happen for you!

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Tucker301 can probably make that happen for you!

Fuckin DO IIITTTTTT, sambo.

 

[samb300]

Fuckin DO IIITTTTTT, sambo.

It’s like Rambo and Andre 3000 are my dads ?

 

[samb300]

Ya. There's a lot of different takes on these options, for sure. a lot of it is intangible preferences. I can say confidientaly that if you like shooting an MPA in another rifle, you'll like shooting an MPA in an AI. If you didn't know AIs came natively in their own chassis your impression of an AI in an MPA wouldn't be any different than an Impact or TL3 in terms of "designed for". In fact I would argue that the chassis/ action interface feels more refined than the original AT chassis.

I did hear guys talking about having to fit the trigger plate, but I didn't have to Dremel anything out. It dropped right in. I did cut action screws to length but...jeezzz..I had to melt the action out in the first place ? Personally I mind the non-tooless LOP adjustment lock less than the trigger or butt-plug grip. But I will never advocate the folder to be better than the factory AI.

All that said, I haven't ruled out your chassis and the AX buttstock. That setup looks like an AI should be designed. I would put up with the pistol grip for that.

Here's how an unbonded AI shoots in an MPA chassis

Nice. I’ve followed you and the couple other guys with AT-MPA over the past year(s?). It definitely works as-is, and I agree with you that if you’re used to and prefer an MPA, then that’s the best option. I have made it no secret that my design was intended to be a direct swap for the action, with a bonded interface, and (love it or hate it) the same AI ergos from the trigger back.

There is still some debate on my end on whether or not an un-bonded interface would work, or be better. There’s obviously proof in your results that it can and does work. But I decided early on to replicate the chassis/action interface of the factory rifle, rather than try to determine the best design for an un-bonded recoil lug. I know the ASR is un-bonded, and I assume the next-gen short action AXSR or ATSR(?) will be as well. But those were designed from the ground up to be that way, and have 5 action screws and a totally different interface.

 

[Srikaleak]

Can you imagine if Rambo existed today? Wouldn't he be a mass shooter? Imagine the headlines..."Green Beret kills 12 Police Officers in a deadly 3 day standoff in the hills of Montana"...not at all cool..ha ha?

... Christopher Dorner in LA. Probably near Slys house at some point.

The toolless adjustability and fold over bolt are the main drivers toward the AX stock. But aesthetically, nothing beats thumbhole stock on an AT.

 

[samb300]

Can you imagine if Rambo existed today? Wouldn't he be a mass shooter? Imagine the headlines..."Green Beret kills 12 Police Officers in a deadly 3 day standoff in the hills of Montana"...not at all cool..ha ha?

My wife and I just watched Thunderball, and it was so obvious that in today’s day and age pretty much every woman would be suing James Bond for sexual assault. Kinda the same thing as Rambo, we live in different times haha

 

[samb300]

Sam, serious question. Say you sell 20 or 30 chassis. 3 years later... then what? Are you really going to do a bakers dozen x 2 chassis and that's it? You will be able to resist V2, V3, etc... When the next Arca Rail must have comes out? ?

That’s a good question. I’m not really sure TBH, especially since in 3 years I’m assuming the next gen short action will be out...but who knows if the LH version will be out then? I’m at a disadvantage there, since I’m not going to drop 5k+ on the ATSR when it comes out unless it’s LH. And this project will ‘best case’ have me netting a small profit, so chasing the newest shiny won’t be in my best financial interest.

I’m obviously no Luddite, but my plan is honestly to come out with the most refined chassis now and run that for the foreseeable future. If a new rail interface or attachment comes out (which it will), I guess I’ll be sitting on my porch shaking a RRS chassis at the young’ns haha.

All of this would change if I got my own CNC or got a job in the firearms industry. But right now I’m tied to a (admittedly awesome) machine shop, and am at their mercy for lead time and pricing.

 

[Timo Turl]

I much prefer my MPA chassis to my
AT chassis but i wouldn’t de-bond the latter to fit the MPA. Sometimes they fit, sometimes they don’t (they don’t always fit a R700 action!!). I believe de-bonding will also massively impacts residual value of your AT. The market in the U.K. for a de-bonded AT is negligible.

Finally, AI are working on a new chassis. I will wait for that.

 

[Scotch_egg]

I much prefer my MPA chassis to my
AT chassis but i wouldn’t de-bond the latter to fit the MPA. Sometimes they fit, sometimes they don’t (they don’t always fit a R700 action!!). I believe de-bonding will also massively impacts residual value of your AT. The market in the U.K. for a de-bonded AT is negligible.

Finally, AI are working on a new chassis. I will wait for that.

I wasn’t aware AI are working on a new chassis. That’s exciting news. However probably not going to impact me as I doubt it will be available the AT.

That leads me to say that my AT is a keeper. Residual value isn’t a consideration. Even though you can always re-bond the chassis.

 

[samb300]

I much prefer my MPA chassis to my
AT chassis but i wouldn’t de-bond the latter to fit the MPA. Sometimes they fit, sometimes they don’t (they don’t always fit a R700 action!!). I believe de-bonding will also massively impacts residual value of your AT. The market in the U.K. for a de-bonded AT is negligible.

Finally, AI are working on a new chassis. I will wait for that.

My chassis has zero consideration for residual resale value in mind, it’s purely about function and performance in PRS style matches. I’ve been shooting solely an AI at matches the past 4 seasons, and I can 100% say the new chassis performs better on the typical props/barricades than an AT or AX does.

Push comes to shove, you could always mail back the action and chassis and have AI bond them back together.

Yes, AI is working on a new gen, as evidenced by the ASR. But I’m not about to wait X years for the new short action in Left Hand, that may or may not be as good as my current design for comp shooting. I want to have the best chance to win matches right now.

The way I look at it, there’s likely very little chance someone will buy an AI strictly for my chassis. There’s no denying how expensive it is when they could buy a dedicated R700 clone and MDT or MPA chassis. But for the people who already own an AT and see it having weakness for comps, a new chassis kit could be a worthwhile upgrade. Especially if you compare the total price of an AT+chassis as still being cheaper than an AX. Also, the chassis kit will be a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a brand new ATSR or whatever it’s called.

 

[samb300]

Ya I think the whole bonded thing is so overplayed. Like it isn't just a bedding compound without a release agent. When you step back and consider all the opinions out there it's a mess. You got threads of people saying bedding is wholly unnecessary. You've got the AI crew that credit's it to be a magical quality. I definitely think bedding has it's place. And I think AIs design for their intended purpose made a lot sense to do it the way that they have. But I also wouldn't hesitate to have Mile High just Devcon it back in.

I wonder how much lower ATs will drop in price? I paid $2900 for mine without a barrel.

I don't think the bonding is "magical" or needed to shoot tiny groups, as you've seen with your AT-MPA. However, I think the bonding does provide an added buffer of durability and repeatability in the field. If you take a normal 20# match gun (R700 in a chassis with 2 action screws) and drop it on the ground, there's a good chance of a POI shift due to the action/chassis interface. Do that with an AI and there's basically no way the interface will shift because of the bonding and the 4 action screws.

The way the current AIs are designed, the intent is to bond them and have epoxy between the recoil lug and the recoil lug pocket. There are 4 brass washers between the action and chassis that define the distance between the two and keep the epoxy at a consistent thickness. If you take that same setup and remove the epoxy, you're relying solely on the small contact surface of the 4 washers and will have ZERO recoil lug contact. I'm assuming the MPA chassis changed the dimensions so that the recoil lug pocket contacts the recoil lug, which is something I didn't want to do with my design.

The ASR is un-bonded and has 5 action screws (4 in front, 1 in rear). This allows them to move to an AR grip tang because the action can be removed to access the trigger pack. Until I have one taken apart in hand, I can't comment on exactly how it differs from the current gen of bonded actions. But from the pictures I've seen, the geometry has definitely changed, and it's clear they purposely altered the design to keep the same performance without the epoxy.

 

[samb300]

I wonder how much lower ATs will drop in price? I paid $2900 for mine without a barrel.

Unfortunately it still ends up being a $2900 action with all things considered, which is a turn-off for most. Maybe when the next gen comes out there will be a fire sale on ATs and more guys will want to jump into an aftermarket chassis. Being a lefty, I don't know that I have the luxury of waiting forever to find out, so if I want another one I might have to pull the trigger sooner than later.

 

[samb300]

@reubenski I’m definitely not going to question your experiences in the real “field” as I referred to it. I’m sure the crap you and other military personnel put gear through is harsher than pretty much any match condition. Though match guns as we know them can and do go down in rain, dust, etc. And tipping off a roof or barricade prop would be enough for most guys to want to re-check their zero. Hopefully with a bonded (or properly bedded) rifle that wouldn’t even need to be considered.

One crazy thing about the AI system was when I was first working on this project I had my AX completely apart for 4 or 5 months. Meaning barrel, scope, action rail, action de-bonded. When I re-bonded it myself and put everything back together it was only off 0.2 mils vertically from the original zero. I thought that was insane! I’ve seen videos of other actions “switch barrel” where they aren’t even that close from taking a barrel off and putting it back on. I’d love to see people test that with a regular R700 in a chassis, even if it’s just removing the barreled action w/scope and putting it back in the chassis.

 

[samb300]

I appreciate the info from your real-world experience. Very interesting stuff. I don't have anything to add, other than my decision to keep the bonded AI interface was also to prevent going down the design rabbit hole...
- Non bonded interface...what dimensions should I use?...now add AR grip tang...no more AI skins...buttstock tang won't work now...gotta design a new folding buttstock and hinge...

At that point I'd be trying to design a complete chassis on my own.