Accuracy International AX 224V is A L I V E

[Lowlight]

It's A L I V E !!!!

IT'S ALIVE...

As noted just a few short weeks ago, I took possession of a 6.8 Bolt Head for an AI Bolt. First job, source the bolt body and then swap the heads out ...

That complete I grabbed a Proof Steel barrel from MHSA and Adam went to work spinning up everything to fit.

Took some work, Adam is a craftsman, but Enrique did an awesome job

As I was waiting I found a whole lot of 90gr Federal Ammo for 15 cents a round. 15C !!!! each, yes please I'll take 10... cases.

The ammo was advertised as Seconds, with a huge warning disclaimer so nobody will buy it but us idiots.

Now I still have some work to do on the AX, the magazine issue, I need to sort that out, more in a second, but first some numbers from my Shitty Federal Ammo that doesn't work in anyone's rifles and has to be sold at a loss.

I have a 224V bolt gun, built on a Bighorn Action, Bartlein LH Gain Twist barrel that is an absolute hammer. these are the numbers from that rifle

I had a tiny hiccup running the AX Numbers, but I was also trying to get as many rounds through it initially as possible so it was a bit of me. However, this is the Bighorn Action results.

Accuracy was decent, winds were bad all week, 8 to 12MPH and with a .22 it matters.

This was my control rifle, the AX was new so using the Control Rifle I was able to gauge it.

Now to the AX Accuracy

About the same, not much different, I think I have 8 rounds here and wasn't just sinking them for zero.

It was shooting super smooth, I can drop around in the port, and it loads flawlessly. The issue is the magazine, I can get a few AICS Variants to seat but they need to be modified via a Dremel to move some material away from the 3rd Lug.

You can load a mag, but once the left side releases the whole thing falls apart. A new follower is really all that is needed to hold stuff in place.

But the single stack magazines from MDT work great and I can lock one in place. I just need to remove the bolt stop area.

Now I want to march out to the distance, as I noted the wind was whipping so initially I was pretty Lackadaisical about it until this happened at 400 yards right out of the gate.

1.8 Mils to 400, held about .5 in the wind, and smack...

Next, I went to 2.5 and shot at 500 yards,

At this point, I am giggling, like really giggling because this ammo cost me 15 cents per round.

Finally, I went to 600 before heading home,

My jaw dropped laughing ... I am like WTF Over ...

So I am happy, once I get the magazine issue sorted out I think I have a winner on my hands.

The Bighorn works have no issue with an MDT Magazine, but that is a 2 lug action, if I can move the material around the 3rd lug I am golden.

Fun Meter... Of the Charts!

 

[DarinC]

Where the hell did you find that ammo at that price! That’s a screaming deal. Nice work.

 

[Nouseforaname01]

No kidding the cheapest I found it was $0.79 and bought a couple of cases.

 

[Lowlight]

 

[Lowlight]

There are 7 cases left, starts with an S and includes a G

it's a tick more than 15 cents, it's cheap, especially for the 90s, but not quite 15 cents, being a bit silly, $150 a case of 200

 

[DocRDS]

You are a bastard

A magnificent bastard.

 

[MarinePMI]

I admit it......I'm jealous.

 

[Lowlight]

Some numbers

 

[Lucreau]

Very nice! Has been very windy out here in Elizabeth the last few days! @lowlight are you shooting out in Pawnee?

 

[Lowlight]

No,

I have a private range in Fort Morgan I only shoot Pawnee during the matches

 

[Lucreau]

Oh nice!

 

[Dogtown]

 

[carbonbased]

This is really cool! Thankfully, not being able to easily get a .224 Valk (or heck, a .223) from AI (or through conversion) is about the only thing stopping me from buying one.

My wallet is happy, me not as much.

 

[kthomas]

Cool rifle.

Personally no interest in .224 Valkyrie myself, but with those results and prices, this definitely seemed like a worthwhile endeavor.


I'm sure this would make some heads explode in Facebook

 

[Lowlight]

Like I said,

I had it, not trying to sell it, but it’s damn fun to shoot

 

[Long Range 338]

I jumped on the Valk train early and even in semi auto it’s great. Bought cases of the 75 gr stuff before shit went crazy and it’s great to 900 or so…. For the $$$ it’s the best training value out there. But keep that all on the DL or get Federal to jump back in

 

[jzerfoss]

Are Valk fans just not into handloading? Otherwise I'm not really seeing the benefit of the Valk over a 223 in a bolt gun.

 

[Long Range 338]

Are Valk fans just not into handloading? Otherwise I'm not really seeing the benefit of the Valk over a 223 in a bolt gun.

Show me what your 223 can do with a 90gr bullet.

 

[MarinePMI]

Show me what your 223 can do with a 90gr bullet.

As well as fit in a magazine...

 

[jzerfoss]

As well as fit in a magazine...

Show me what your 223 can do with a 90gr bullet.

I haven't shot 90smks. I shoot mostly 88elds but they are better ballistically according to AB.

22" Kreiger 223 wylde chamber (admittedly a fast barrel) 2830fps with 23.7grs h4895, nammo brass, and 88s

26" X-caliber 223 wylde chamber 2850fps, 23.6grs h4895, nammo brass, and 88s

28" Proof SS long throated 223 2910fps, 25.8gr Varget and 88s. 2920fps 27.5grs pp2000mr and 88s. Both federal brass.

All very accurate loads and loaded just below pressure signs.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

View attachment 7854184

That’s for those without AI’s

 

[Long Range 338]

@jzerfoss Very nice. Now make it fit into an AR15 magazine. The 224 Valkyrie has more case capacity and will push faster with less pressure. I've attached the info from Hornady and Sierra for comparison to SAAMI spec pressures. Obviously guys can and do go faster with bolt guns. As an FYI, Hornady doesn't have load data for 223 and the 88gr bullets, only for the 556.

ETA: I had to show 80gr bullets for Sierra as they don't have load data for anything heavier for 223

 

[jzerfoss]

@jzerfoss Very nice. Now make it fit into an AR15 magazine. The 224 Valkyrie has more case capacity and will push faster with less pressure. I've attached the info from Hornady and Sierra for comparison to SAAMI spec pressures. Obviously guys can and do go faster with bolt guns. As an FYI, Hornady doesn't have load data for 223 and the 88gr bullets, only for the 556.

I definitely said in a bolt gun....

 

[Long Range 338]

I definitely said in a bolt gun....

Well, you do the math... If you push your 223 harder in a bolt gun and I push my 224 Valkyrie harder in a bolt gun but I have more powder capacity, who wins?
The benefit of the Valkyrie is I can outperform you with factory ammo or with handloads (apples to apples of course). And I don't HAVE to handload to get the performance.

 

[jzerfoss]

Well, you do the math... If you push your 223 harder in a bolt gun and I push my 224 Valkyrie harder in a bolt gun but I have more powder capacity, who wins?
The benefit of the Valkyrie is I can outperform you with factory ammo or with handloads (apples to apples of course). And I don't HAVE to handload to get the performance.

What are you getting with handloads with the Valk? Or are you not speaking from experience?

 

[Long Range 338]

I've not hand loaded, I haven't had to. Also I'm only in an AR platform right now. Does it really matter? I've showed you the published numbers for both, its not as if you can push the 223 and not the Valkyrie.

You asked about the benefit of the Valkyrie and I've explained it.

 

[jzerfoss]

I've not hand loaded, I haven't had to. Also I'm only in an AR platform right now. Does it really matter? I've showed you the published numbers for both, its not as if you can push the 223 and not the Valkyrie.

You asked about the benefit of the Valkyrie and I've explained it.

Apparently you either didn't read my original comment or didn't understand it. Also "published" numbers are just starting points for new loaders and rarely reflect real world numbers and doesn't take into account many factors that affect velocity and pressure.

I did a search for bolt action Valk posts and found some data but nothing that overly exceeds(30ish fps more with 88s) the velocities I'm getting with in the 223 wylde rifles and none that exceed the long throat 223. I may have missed some posts from people with actual experience loading for the Valk in a bolt gun.

I'm not against the Valk I just don't see much of a benefit in a bolt gun if you handload. If I saw some numbers around 100fps over mine with the long throat 223 I'd definitely get it.

 

[Lowlight]

What are you getting with handloads with the Valk? Or are you not speaking from experience?

The Valkyrie out of the box has speeds that equal a 223 AI and the factory loads are subdued power / speed wise

You can get over 2900fps with it, but most kept it slow because it was designed for an AR platform so they didn’t want it so fast.

But you can easily load it over 2900 with a heavy bullet like the 85.5, 88s, or 90s

Many are doing a Mexican match with 77s and love it

 

[jzerfoss]

The Valkyrie out of the box has speeds that equal a 223 AI and the factory loads are subdued power / speed wise

That's an interesting statement. I've yet to see anyone on here running 88s or 90s over 2850fps from factory Valk ammo which my regular ol' 223 wylde is capable of. I don't own a 223 AI but I'd imagine it would be faster in most circumstances than a regular 223 wylde which the same build materials.

You can get over 2900fps with it, but most kept it slow because it was designed for an AR platform so they didn’t want it so fast.

But you can easily load it over 2900 with a heavy bullet like the 85.5, 88s, or 90s

Many are doing a Mexican match with 77s and love it

I don't disagree it's possible I just haven't seen anyone on here give data that agrees. When I searched the fastest I found was a guy running 88s at 2880fps from his 26" Valk bolt gun. Even if it's capable of 50fps more than the 223(2960-2970fps w/ 88-90s) from a bolt gun why not just go with the 22br at that point and get 100fps over the Valk?

Kinda of only makes since to me if you don't want to or can't handload. If that's it then I guess I get it.

 

[Lowlight]

Do you understand case capacity

The fact the loaded they factory ammo slow and several people stayed in that lane doesn’t change the fact you have case capacity

We know for a fact Federal had it over 3100gps before slowing it down. There was discussion recently about a relaunch and the number used were all over 3k

The bolt gun stuff is fairly quiet so you don’t see big numbers but they are coming

 

[Lowlight]

Nobody talks out loud about the Valkyrie but a few of us, too much hassle to explain it.

But it’s easily outshining every 223 variant but the Ackleys

I used it as a secondary at a CD match and seeing the results compared to the 223s I was done in 2 or less shots the average 223 was 6 to 8 on the same targets using an AR

I was in Open at a Guardian and came in 12th with 88s and an AR so clearly there is minor evidence

But the numbers don’t lie Apples to Apples same bullet, the Valkyrie is faster due to case capacity

 

[jzerfoss]

Do you understand case capacity

The fact the loaded they factory ammo slow and several people stayed in that lane doesn’t change the fact you have case capacity

We know for a fact Federal had it over 3100gps before slowing it down. There was discussion recently about a relaunch and the number used were all over 3k

The bolt gun stuff is fairly quiet so you don’t see big numbers but they are coming

I completely understand capacity. I also understand that the usable capacity isn't that much more and brass quality plays a big part. Neither federal or hornady have been putting out very strong/hard case heads in their brass lately. I could see a long throated Valk with quality brass being impressive in comparison.

I'm interested to see what they relaunch if they decide to. The 85.5 hybrid would be a great choice since it's known to be able to be pushed faster than the 88s before hitting pressure. Like I said I'm not a hater just don't see the place for it with the handloader.

 

[Long Range 338]

Are Valk fans just not into handloading? Otherwise I'm not really seeing the benefit of the Valk over a 223 in a bolt gun.

Apparently you either didn't read my original comment or didn't understand it. Also "published" numbers are just starting points for new loaders and rarely reflect real world numbers and doesn't take into account many factors that affect velocity and pressure.

I did a search for bolt action Valk posts and found some data but nothing that overly exceeds(30ish fps more with 88s) the velocities I'm getting with in the 223 wylde rifles and none that exceed the long throat 223. I may have missed some posts from people with actual experience loading for the Valk in a bolt gun.

I'm not against the Valk I just don't see much of a benefit in a bolt gun if you handload. If I saw some numbers around 100fps over mine with the long throat 223 I'd definitely get it.

Um, not much to misunderstand.

Perhaps I'm not addressing the question the way you would like... Its not a matter of hand loading, its a matter of economics and time. No matter how you slice the pie, the Valkyrie has the velocity advantage, however minor it may be. Factory ammo at approx $0.75 per round or better. In the current reloading crunch, for what it would cost to purchase powder and primers I can have factory loaded ammo that exceeds the 223 without having to reload. I would call this a benefit regardless of platform. Why handload if I can shoot?

It appears you didn't bother to look at the published data because it shows about 200 fps advantage to the Valkyrie. (220fps for the Sierra 80gr and 100 fps for the 88gr Hornady. If we use the H4895 data it is actually 200 fps). As I mentioned previously this is published data from reliable sources in AR platforms... Now if we extrapolate that you are getting 150 fps boost by hand loading in a bolt action rifle, could we not assume that the larger case could also get higher velocities in a bolt action rifle beyond published max loads? Again this is a benefit regardless of platform.

Of course you can build the highly specialized long throated chamber and single feed for maximum performance. The idea is factory chambering vs factory chambering. You are basically comparing your wildcat to a factory chamber - of course you are getting more performance per grain of powder but you have no choice but to handload.

If you still don't like the Valkyrie, good deal. Only you can decide what is worth your time and $$$

 

[jzerfoss]

Um, not much to misunderstand.

Perhaps I'm not addressing the question the way you would like... Its not a matter of hand loading, its a matter of economics and time. No matter how you slice the pie, the Valkyrie has the velocity advantage, however minor it may be. Factory ammo at approx $0.75 per round or better. In the current reloading crunch, for what it would cost to purchase powder and primers I can have factory loaded ammo that exceeds the 223 without having to reload. I would call this a benefit regardless of platform. Why handload if I can shoot?

I specifically said if you don't want or can't handload I guess I get it. So your just arguing to argue with this point.

It appears you didn't bother to look at the published data because it shows about 200 fps advantage to the Valkyrie. (220fps for the Sierra 80gr and 100 fps for the 88gr Hornady. If we use the H4895 data it is actually 200 fps). As I mentioned previously this is published data from reliable sources in AR platforms... Now if we extrapolate that you are getting 150 fps boost by hand loading in a bolt action rifle, could we not assume that the larger case could also get higher velocities in a bolt action rifle beyond published max loads? Again this is a benefit regardless of platform.

Of course you can build the highly specialized long throated chamber and single feed for maximum performance. The idea is factory chambering vs factory chambering. You are basically comparing your wildcat to a factory chamber - of course you are getting more performance per grain of powder but you have no choice but to handload.

If you still don't like the Valkyrie, good deal. Only you can decide what is worth your time and $$$

Why do you keep bring up ARs? This is the bolt action section talking about a bolt action Valk and I'm specifically talking about 223 vs Valk handloaded in a bolt gun. Again manufacture published data is just starting points for new loaders and rarely reflect real world numbers and doesn't take into account many factors that affect velocity and pressure. You are arguing non-relevant points in an attempt to be right about something I'm not talking about. I get you like factory ammo in your gas gun Valk. I'm happy for you.

You don't have a bolt action Valk nor do you load for the Valk so you have no useful insight in this discussion.

 

[carbonbased]

@jzerfoss Is this a good summary?

.223 in Wylde chamber vs .224 Valkyrie

1. Factory Bolt gun+factory ammo: Valkyrie wins
2. AR15+factory ammo: Valkyrie wins
3. Custom long throat single-fed magazine-fed bolt gun with a super long barrel+Handloads vs #1: 223=Valkyrie (probably)

 

[jzerfoss]

@jzerfoss Is this a good summary?

.223 in Wylde chamber vs .224 Valkyrie

1. Factory Bolt gun+factory ammo: Valkyrie wins
2. AR15+factory ammo: Valkyrie wins
3. Custom long throat single-fed bolt gun with a super long barrel+Handloads vs #1: 223=Valkyrie (probably)

I don't disagree with this. I was hoping someone with handloading experience with a Valk bolty would show up with some first hand data to compare with.

 

[carbonbased]

I don't disagree with this. I was hoping someone with handloading experience with a Valk bolty would show up with some first hand data to compare with.

Ok. Then no one is arguing. Carry on everyone.

 

[jzerfoss]

Ok. Then no one is arguing. Carry on everyone.

@jzerfoss Is this a good summary?

.223 in Wylde chamber vs .224 Valkyrie

1. Factory Bolt gun+factory ammo: Valkyrie wins
2. AR15+factory ammo: Valkyrie wins
3. Custom long throat single-fed bolt gun with a super long barrel+Handloads vs #1: 223=Valkyrie (probably)

With one caveat lol. I mag feed my custom long throat ammo.

 

[Long Range 338]

I specifically said if you don't want or can't handload I guess I get it. So your just arguing to argue with this point.


Why do you keep bring up ARs? This is the bolt action section talking about a bolt action Valk and I'm specifically talking about 223 vs Valk handloaded in a bolt gun. Again manufacture published data is just starting points for new loaders and rarely reflect real world numbers and doesn't take into account many factors that affect velocity and pressure. You are arguing non-relevant points in an attempt to be right about something I'm not talking about. I get you like factory ammo in your gas gun Valk. I'm happy for you.

You don't have a bolt action Valk nor do you load for the Valk so you have no useful insight in this discussion.

Against my better judgement, I'm gonna give this one more try...

-To the first point, I'm explaining to you why I don't reload (I don't have to and there is no economic advantage to reloading the Valkyrie). What part of that doesn't answer whether I don't want to or can't? If it makes you feel better I can tell you that you are superior for choosing to reload while I choose not to... Honestly not trying to argue, just trying to give a thorough response.

-I keep bringing up ARs because the cartridge was designed to fit within the constraints or the AR package - as was the 223. There is no published data for bolt action Valkyrie as it is fairly new and there is not a huge demand for bolt action reloading data, which is what you are finding in your own searches. Hence the only published data HAS to be the starting point for a meaningful exchange of information.... As I've mentioned in EVERY response, bolt guns are capable of higher pressures without issues and this is true for BOTH cartridges.

What you are failing to grasp is that we are talking about a factory chambering in a factory chamber. You are talking about a factory cartridge in a CUSTOM chamber. You mention that you understand case capacity but still don't understand how the Valkyrie can produce more velocity... Federal and Hornady are getting more velocity in softer brass without the long throats due to the larger case capacity. Your mention of harder brass and longer throats means you are wanting to get that velocity with higher pressures. There are many of us that are well versed in hand loading and understand without issue.

I'm not doubting your reloading abilities but at this point I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity in asking or ability to understand what is being presented.

 

[st1650]

How hard would it be to open up a 223 bolt face with a M16 extractor like the defiance ruckus for a valk/6arc bolt face. Once I burn out my 204 ruger barrel I might go valk for my dedicated coyote build. Trying to figure out if it's worth having the smith do it versus buying a complete bolt from defiance

 

[blackblue]

I completely understand capacity. I also understand that the usable capacity isn't that much more and brass quality plays a big part. Neither federal or hornady have been putting out very strong/hard case heads in their brass lately. I could see a long throated Valk with quality brass being impressive in comparison.

I'm interested to see what they relaunch if they decide to. The 85.5 hybrid would be a great choice since it's known to be able to be pushed faster than the 88s before hitting pressure. Like I said I'm not a hater just don't see the place for it with the handloader.

Starline solves the brass issue vs federal and hornady.

 

[Franko]

How hard would it be to open up a 223 bolt face with a M16 extractor like the defiance ruckus for a valk/6arc bolt face. Once I burn out my 204 ruger barrel I might go valk for my dedicated coyote build. Trying to figure out if it's worth having the smith do it versus buying a complete bolt from defiance

I contacted LRI about making a 223 bolt into a 6ARC and they said its doable so they could probably do a Valk bolt face as well. Price would be dependent on whether they could reuse the old extractor or have to make a one-off custom.

 

[st1650]

I contacted LRI about making a 223 bolt into a 6ARC and they said its doable so they could probably do a Valk bolt face as well. Price would be dependent on whether they could reuse the old extractor or have to make a one-off custom.

Yeah I was hoping you could keep the same extractor.

 

[Baron23]

Wow, so many dust ups in threads on the Hide remind me of this (LOL):

 

[BJames]

 

[BJames]

Like I said,

I had it, not trying to sell it, but it’s damn fun to shoot

What barrel length and twist, Frank?

 

[Lowlight]

I got this 6ARC mag to work. It’s locks in place and feeds. I had to trim a tiny bit from the feed lips to clear the lugs.

It’s far from perfect but works to feed. The lock up is only about 65%

 

[poke_53]

@lowlight

Was a SAAMI spec reamer used for both the Origin and the AI? Asking since they shoot well with factory ammo.

 

[Lowlight]

Yes it was

 

[poke_53]

Thanks for the response. I’ve got 4 cases of this ammo and a reamer with a lot of freebore. I’ll rent one to shoot the factory ammo and then use my reamer for when I’m ready to hand load.