Accuracy Issues with HOWA 1500 HS Precision

[mikehill85]

I have a HOWA 1500 HS Precision in 308 with a 26" 1:10 twist semi heavy barrel. I have between trying to work up a load that shoots well in the gun but what I'm typically getting is about 1.5" 5-shot groups at 100 yards...See representative groups below. I have tried 168 grain SMK BTHPs and 175 grain SMK BTHPs using IMR 4064 and IMR 3031 but the below is about as far as I've gotten which is far from impressive.

One thing I have noticed is that my HS Precision Stock has rub marks inside the barrel channel. It is actually my 2nd HS Precision stock. The first one straight up contacted the barrel channel and HS Precision sent me a second one for free which at least would pass a piece of paper between the barrel and barrel channel. Another thing I have noticed is that even when following HS Precision's stock installation instructions to the letter and torquing the action screws to 65 inch lbs, I can move the barrel relative to the barrel channel with fairly minimal hand force and putting pressure on the stock reduces the gap between the barrel and barrel channel.

Anyway, I've heard a lot of good things about HOWA 1500s, the action looks very solid, the trigger is great too (for a factory trigger) but what I'm seeing so far is pretty underwhelming. I'm thinking it might be the stock that's the culprit but I'm not looking to drop $100s in a new stock to try to find out if that's the case. I am considering just putting some business cards under the barrel at the end of the stock to create some pressure on the barrel. This is what the Weatherby S2 stock does in the Vanguard series with a similar barrel profile, as I understand it.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. It just sucks that I can't seem to get this one to shoot.

 

[bbhank]

Sounds like the front action screw is slightly too long and is bottoming out. Try putting a washer under it as a test, if it tightens up then you will need to trim the screw.

 

[moaorbust]

I had a different fitment issue with my Howa that had similar effects to this. A pin from the side of the Timney trigger was pushing against the side of the MPA chassis. Shots were all over the place. Once detected and resolved the rifle lived up to the accuracy claims.

 

[Barelstroker]

I have a HOWA 1500 HS Precision in 308 with a 26" 1:10 twist semi heavy barrel. I have between trying to work up a load that shoots well in the gun but what I'm typically getting is about 1.5" 5-shot groups at 100 yards...See representative groups below. I have tried 168 grain SMK BTHPs and 175 grain SMK BTHPs using IMR 4064 and IMR 3031 but the below is about as far as I've gotten which is far from impressive.

One thing I have noticed is that my HS Precision Stock has rub marks inside the barrel channel. It is actually my 2nd HS Precision stock. The first one straight up contacted the barrel channel and HS Precision sent me a second one for free which at least would pass a piece of paper between the barrel and barrel channel. Another thing I have noticed is that even when following HS Precision's stock installation instructions to the letter and torquing the action screws to 65 inch lbs, I can move the barrel relative to the barrel channel with fairly minimal hand force and putting pressure on the stock reduces the gap between the barrel and barrel channel.

Anyway, I've heard a lot of good things about HOWA 1500s, the action looks very solid, the trigger is great too (for a factory trigger) but what I'm seeing so far is pretty underwhelming. I'm thinking it might be the stock that's the culprit but I'm not looking to drop $100s in a new stock to try to find out if that's the case. I am considering just putting some business cards under the barrel at the end of the stock to create some pressure on the barrel. This is what the Weatherby S2 stock does in the Vanguard series with a similar barrel profile, as I understand it.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. It just sucks that I can't seem to get this one to shoot.

Here are some things I went through with my Howa.
I bought a 20" light profile standard 308 Win. Because of the very thin barrel, it's always going to be a challenge & I knew that going in. I had always planned on re-barrelling so I wasn't concerned.
If the rifle is blue finish you may have to remove that coating from inside the chamber. From what I can tell, they must dip the entire barrelled action in the stuff. When I 1st started shooting mine, I didn't realise that the coating was in the chamber & barrel & shot terrible at the beginning. CLR is the only thing I know that will strip that coating off. I've pretty much removed all of it in the chamber & the barrel bore will be stripped by the projectiles after a couple dozen firings.
After firing a hundred rounds or thereabouts, things started settling down.
Onto the stock/chassis.
I pretty much ran the rifle in with it mounted in the over moulded stock they come in. After settling in, it was shooting quite ok with most groups around 1 to 1.7 MOA. (remember, pencil thin barrel & 5 shot groups)
I'd pre ordered an MDT ACC & mounted the action in that, expecting things to settle in better. Wow, was I wrong! Even with a full set of forend interior weights, bag rider & butt stock weight, rifle weighed 15.65 LB with scope & mounts.....that rifle twisted, kicked & bucked 4" to left on every shot. Previous 1 MOA groups turned into 2 1/2 to 3 MOA groups. I lost count how many times I took the barrelled action out, checked & re installed, all to no avail.
Long story short...........I finished up epoxy bedding the action into the ACC. The result has been almost miraculous in terms of the difference in the recoil impulse &, group dispersion settled down as well.
Now I realise that the ACC has nothing to do with your situation however, after speaking with a gunsmith who has built many rifles around the Howa action, he was adamant that the Howa actions usually benefitted from epoxy bedding regardless of the stock or inletting.
To summarize:
# Remove black coating from chamber with CLR. (Bore guide is essential) Do this 1st so the brass can size properly to the chamber for reloading.

# Allow 100 rounds minimum for run in.

# Check carefully the stock inletting. Pay particular attention to the depth of the inletting under the belly of the action just rearward of the recoil lug. Measure the recoil lug depth from the belly against the inlet bottom of recoil support face to ensure the belly isn't floating like mine was in the ACC.
Hope this helps........Barelstroker.

 

[mikehill85]

Sounds like the front action screw is slightly too long and is bottoming out. Try putting a washer under it as a test, if it tightens up then you will need to trim the screw.

Actually with the first HS Precision stock I had, I followed their instructions and put some epoxy right behind the recoil lug (they used to send epoxy to do this with the stocks and recommend this but no longer do) and a bit of it got onto the threads of the front action screw (and there is a bit in the threaded hole in the recoil lug). I am going to try to clean that out with a brass brush on an electric hand drill. That could definitely be causing the screw to bottom out and not make proper contact with the aluminum bedding block.

I suspect though that it might actually be down to just how this stock is constructed. It doesn't seem like the action is moving in the stock. The stock has an aluminum bedding block with set screws on either side of the recoil lug so the recoil lug itself literally can't even move from side to side. It almost seems like the stock itself is flexible enough to move with fairly moderate pressure applied to it. Intuitively it seems to me that if I were to put a pressure pad at the end of the forend it would stiffen up the whole system and the gun might shoot tighter groups. That said, my intuition about this gun hasn't been correct so far, so thanks for the advice.

 

[mikehill85]

Here are some things I went through with my Howa.
I bought a 20" light profile standard 308 Win. Because of the very thin barrel, it's always going to be a challenge & I knew that going in. I had always planned on re-barrelling so I wasn't concerned.
If the rifle is blue finish you may have to remove that coating from inside the chamber. From what I can tell, they must dip the entire barrelled action in the stuff. When I 1st started shooting mine, I didn't realise that the coating was in the chamber & barrel & shot terrible at the beginning. CLR is the only thing I know that will strip that coating off. I've pretty much removed all of it in the chamber & the barrel bore will be stripped by the projectiles after a couple dozen firings.
After firing a hundred rounds or thereabouts, things started settling down.
Onto the stock/chassis.
I pretty much ran the rifle in with it mounted in the over moulded stock they come in. After settling in, it was shooting quite ok with most groups around 1 to 1.7 MOA. (remember, pencil thin barrel & 5 shot groups)
I'd pre ordered an MDT ACC & mounted the action in that, expecting things to settle in better. Wow, was I wrong! Even with a full set of forend interior weights, bag rider & butt stock weight, rifle weighed 15.65 LB with scope & mounts.....that rifle twisted, kicked & bucked 4" to left on every shot. Previous 1 MOA groups turned into 2 1/2 to 3 MOA groups. I lost count how many times I took the barrelled action out, checked & re installed, all to no avail.
Long story short...........I finished up epoxy bedding the action into the ACC. The result has been almost miraculous in terms of the difference in the recoil impulse &, group dispersion settled down as well.
Now I realise that the ACC has nothing to do with your situation however, after speaking with a gunsmith who has built many rifles around the Howa action, he was adamant that the Howa actions usually benefitted from epoxy bedding regardless of the stock or inletting.
To summarize:
# Remove black coating from chamber with CLR. (Bore guide is essential) Do this 1st so the brass can size properly to the chamber for reloading.

# Allow 100 rounds minimum for run in.

# Check carefully the stock inletting. Pay particular attention to the depth of the inletting under the belly of the action just rearward of the recoil lug. Measure the recoil lug depth from the belly against the inlet bottom of recoil support face to ensure the belly isn't floating like mine was in the ACC.
Hope this helps........Barelstroker.

Thanks for taking the time to send me this detailed response. It does seem like it's very possible that I am getting poor contact between the action and aluminum bedding block in my stock. There is a bunch of overspray (from painting) on top of the aluminum bedding block right under the recoil lug and randomly on other parts of the aluminum bedding block. I will probably need to sand or chemically strip the paint from these areas and then epoxy bed the action. Any thoughts on whether to bed the first inch or so of the barrel?

Approximately how large are your 5-shot groups now? I am just wondering if maybe I am expecting too much from what is effectively a $650 hunting rifle. Sometimes I wonder if this gun is an outlier or if often times people exaggerate the precision of their rifles on the internet. They show you the freak group that put 5 shots into 0.5 MOA but not the 500 other groups they shot that were about 1.5 MOA. They then claim it "Can shoot 0.5 MOA all day.".

 

[DocRDS]

I don't think you are expecting too much. All but the junkiest rifles should be able to do a 1 MOA group at 100 yards and Howa has a repuation of being one of the better off the shelf brands.

(1) It could be you. No offense, everyone likes to claim they are Dick Dead-eye (and forgive me, I don't know if you are the top 100 in PRS, Franks smurf account, or just another guy). Obviously the 'tell' on this one, is of you can shoot other rifles more accurately. Or get a good buddy, known to be a good shooter try it out--same results--it isn't you. (We always blame the shooter first). Now I spend a lot of time at the public range. I am clearly the best guy out there. That scares the hell outta me as I AM NOT A GOOD SHOOTER--just disclosing my biases
(2) You could have a lemon. I've gotten a lemon from good brands before. It happens.
(3) Maybe it is the stock (also see item #2). Do you have a chassis lying around? Like many here I have more money than common sense, so I have extra parts--throw it in a chassis (or other stock--chassis is pretty idiot proof--aka even I can use one) and see if that solves the problem. I don't know squat about fixing stocks (thus why I use a chassis), but that is how I would try and chase this down. If there is the same issue--back to #2 and see if Howa will get you straight (sounds like HS did the same already).

Related from another thread 7/10 shooters are pathological liars (in the thread it was hunters). We all shoot .25 MOA all day in heavy winds. Just ask us. However, I think you have cause here to suspect your equipment.

 

[mikehill85]

I don't think you are expecting too much. All but the junkiest rifles should be able to do a 1 MOA group at 100 yards and Howa has a repuation of being one of the better off the shelf brands.

(1) It could be you. No offense, everyone likes to claim they are Dick Dead-eye (and forgive me, I don't know if you are the top 100 in PRS, Franks smurf account, or just another guy). Obviously the 'tell' on this one, is of you can shoot other rifles more accurately. Or get a good buddy, known to be a good shooter try it out--same results--it isn't you. (We always blame the shooter first). Now I spend a lot of time at the public range. I am clearly the best guy out there. That scares the hell outta me as I AM NOT A GOOD SHOOTER--just disclosing my biases
(2) You could have a lemon. I've gotten a lemon from good brands before. It happens.
(3) Maybe it is the stock (also see item #2). Do you have a chassis lying around? Like many here I have more money than common sense, so I have extra parts--throw it in a chassis (or other stock--chassis is pretty idiot proof--aka even I can use one) and see if that solves the problem. I don't know squat about fixing stocks (thus why I use a chassis), but that is how I would try and chase this down. If there is the same issue--back to #2 and see if Howa will get you straight (sounds like HS did the same already).

Related from another thread 7/10 shooters are pathological liars (in the thread it was hunters). We all shoot .25 MOA all day in heavy winds. Just ask us. However, I think you have cause here to suspect your equipment.

I get you on number 1. It seems everyone on the internet can shoot 0.1" 100 shot groups at 1,000 yards off the hood of their truck with a $300 hunting rifle purchased at Walmart. I wish I could blame myself on this one but yes I can shoot other rifles much better. I have a friend who is into bench rest and I can easily get 0.5" 5-shot groups with that gun consistently. That's terrible for bench rest, I know, but I can definitely pull off better groups than 1.5" at 100 yards. I have absolutely no problem blaming myself for bad groups/shooting when I believe it is warranted.

I really do wish I had a chassis lying around to test with but I don't, unfortunately. The stock has an aluminum bedding block that runs the length of the action up and it's torqued to 65 inch lbs (per manufacturer instructions). There are set screws that keep the action centered in the stock and stop you from being able to push the action from side to side. It seems that the area of the stock without the bedding block is fairly flexible and will move relative to the barrel with some hand force. It's probably normal and acceptable to have some flex in a stock but the barrel has very little clearance in the barrel channel.

I bought the rifle from sportsmans and the stock came with it so I assume the stock is the right size for the action. It is the PSS139 model and my barrel is a 26" semi-heavy barrel. The PSS139 stock is for #2 "sporter" barrels (according the HS Precision's Website) and mine is a #4 contour barrel. Typically this would be a varmint contour. H-S does make a PSV140 for HOWA #6 varmint profiles. So I guess I'm wondering if the barrel channel is too tight for the barrel to actually free float. Marks inside the barrel channel (which appear to be rub marks) would suggest to me that the answer to the latter is "Yes, the barrel channel is too small to free float the barrel".

I have a 3d printer and I could actually design and print a couple of shims that would go under the action at the two action screws to bring the action up a bit and see if opening up the barrel channel a bit might improve things. I'm just not too excited about the prospect of voiding the warranty on this stock by opening up the barrel channel unless I have some indication it will work. The other issue is this move would eliminate contact between the action and bedding block along the length of the action and might not actually tell me if opening up the barrel channel would help.

I actually found a video on a Weatherby Vanguard with a similar stock (HOWA makes the Vanguard for Weatherby), similar barrel profile, and similar ability to flex the stock at the end where the person who made the video claimed to have improved their performance by adding some upward pressure on the barrel. I think I'll give this a try before anything else because it is simple and easily reversed.

 

[Barelstroker]

Thanks for taking the time to send me this detailed response. It does seem like it's very possible that I am getting poor contact between the action and aluminum bedding block in my stock. There is a bunch of overspray (from painting) on top of the aluminum bedding block right under the recoil lug and randomly on other parts of the aluminum bedding block. I will probably need to sand or chemically strip the paint from these areas and then epoxy bed the action. Any thoughts on whether to bed the first inch or so of the barrel?

Approximately how large are your 5-shot groups now? I am just wondering if maybe I am expecting too much from what is effectively a $650 hunting rifle. Sometimes I wonder if this gun is an outlier or if often times people exaggerate the precision of their rifles on the internet. They show you the freak group that put 5 shots into 0.5 MOA but not the 500 other groups they shot that were about 1.5 MOA. They then claim it "Can shoot 0.5 MOA all day.".

Sometimes I wonder if this gun is an outlier or if often times people exaggerate the precision of their rifles on the internet. They show you the freak group that put 5 shots into 0.5 MOA but not the 500 other groups they shot that were about 1.5 MOA. They then claim it "Can shoot 0.5 MOA all day.".

I think this will be an eternal question as long as there are shooters.
It's a bit like asking guys if they pull themselves. Very few admit to it but, we nearly all do it.
When referring to a 4k or 5k+ rifle, anything larger than 1/2 MOA seems to be the nasty evil group size nobody wants to admit to. If it's a hunting rifle, anything much over 1 MOA is the nasty evil group size.
The way I do it these days is to shoot 4, 5 shot groups & average the result then call it good enough. I've been repeating this every month or so, just to see if the average holds up &, it seems to be hanging in there. The average with my 308 Win I mentioned sits around 1.2 MOA. It will routinely shoot 3/4 MOA but, the next group might be 1.5 MOA but rarely much more.
The elephant in the room ofcourse is the shooter. Because of the short very light weight barrel I have at the moment, I've found that shoulder pressure on the butt pad has to be very light & the rifle likes to be able to recoil almost freely for best results. If I lean too hard into the rifle, the groups open up.
Anyhow, I hope you get things sorted soon.
Regards Barelstroker.

 

[mikehill85]

Sometimes I wonder if this gun is an outlier or if often times people exaggerate the precision of their rifles on the internet. They show you the freak group that put 5 shots into 0.5 MOA but not the 500 other groups they shot that were about 1.5 MOA. They then claim it "Can shoot 0.5 MOA all day.".

I think this will be an eternal question as long as there are shooters.
It's a bit like asking guys if they pull themselves. Very few admit to it but, we nearly all do it.
When referring to a 4k or 5k+ rifle, anything larger than 1/2 MOA seems to be the nasty evil group size nobody wants to admit to. If it's a hunting rifle, anything much over 1 MOA is the nasty evil group size.
The way I do it these days is to shoot 4, 5 shot groups & average the result then call it good enough. I've been repeating this every month or so, just to see if the average holds up &, it seems to be hanging in there. The average with my 308 Win I mentioned sits around 1.2 MOA. It will routinely shoot 3/4 MOA but, the next group might be 1.5 MOA but rarely much more.
The elephant in the room ofcourse is the shooter. Because of the short very light weight barrel I have at the moment, I've found that shoulder pressure on the butt pad has to be very light & the rifle likes to be able to recoil almost freely for best results. If I lean too hard into the rifle, the groups open up.
Anyhow, I hope you get things sorted soon.
Regards Barelstroker.

Interesting. Did you try putting a bit of upward pressure on the barrel. I stumbled across this video and it seems with a Weatherby Vanguard (which is manufactured for Weatherby by HOWA) with a similar stock to mine this guy improved his groups markedly by wrapping it in some silicone tape. I'm going to probably give this a try this Saturday and see if it helps at all.



I use some software called OnTarget TDS for my group statistics. It even allows you to output the coordinates of the groups and I aggregate them in excel and plot them in AutoCAD just to see the type of pattern I'm getting. Interestingly enough, 25 shot group aggregates for me appear to be very symmetrical...which unfortunately doesn't help at all with troubleshooting...Lol...Below is the aggregate group from the photo in the original post.

 

[supercorndogs]

People on the internet lie, and all but the junkiest rifles will not shoot 1 MOA. That said I would expect at least 1 moa out of what you have. If you are having contact in the barrel channel that will open up your groups. The question is, is it something in your bedding or is the barrel channel clearance just not enough. It is pretty common if the gap is small, to have contact when you put a bipod on it and start shooting. The fix is to sand barrel channel for more clearance if it is the barrel channel.

 

[supercorndogs]

Interesting. Did you try putting a bit of upward pressure on the barrel. I stumbled across this video and it seems with a Weatherby Vanguard (which is manufactured for Weatherby by HOWA) with a similar stock to mine this guy improved his groups markedly by wrapping it in some silicone tape. I'm going to probably give this a try this Saturday and see if it helps at all.



I use some software called OnTarget TDS for my group statistics. It even allows you to output the coordinates of the groups and I aggregate them in excel and plot them in AutoCAD just to see the type of pattern I'm getting. Interestingly enough, 25 shot group aggregates for me appear to be very symmetrical...Below is the aggregate group from the photo in the orignal post.

View attachment 7695296

I would say he did not take a large enough sample to say he improved anything. His last group was much closer to 1 MOA than half. That said sometimes light barrels shoot better if you bed them all the way up the stock. They are not as stiff as heavy barrels. You have a heavy barrel, you want solid bedding for your action and the barrel free floating, or possibly bedded under the chamber.

 

[mikehill85]

I would say he did not take a large enough sample to say he improved anything. His last group was much closer to 1 MOA than half. That said sometimes light barrels shoot better if you bed them all the way up the stock. They are not as stiff as heavy barrels. You have a heavy barrel, you want solid bedding for your action and the barrel free floating, or possibly bedded under the chamber.

Yeah. I agree with you on that. 3-shot groups don't prove anything and in shooting there's a lot of self-delusion/superstition/confirmation bias that can occur. My barrel profile is HOWA's #4 profile which takes HS-Precision's "sporter" stock (or at least that's the stock that came from sportsman's with the gun). I believe #6 is their varmint profile and they have other profiles for their heavy barrels (though I couldn't find a whole lot of information on HOWA's barrel profiles).

It probably won't help but I do know that Weatherby's stocks have a pressure pad with their "sporter" barrels. I will try this and if it does drastically improve things (which I expect will be the case), I'll look at other options like epoxy bedding and opening up the barrel channel. This is a heavy profile barrel for a "sporter" stock and I see rub marks on the inside of the barrel channel so I suspect opening it up will help...I'd prefer to try less invasive options to start though.

 

[supercorndogs]

It would make sense to me to try a pressure pad before opening up the channel. I couldn't find the Howa profiles. I have a couple #5 counter barrels, they are a heavy sporter barrel, and they both shoot good free floated. they are .750 at the muzzle. They have a pretty generous gap in a stock in-letted for a Remington varmint profile barrel.

 

[jcmullis2]

I like the hs precision stocks on my remy’s but they require 60in/Lbs torque. I’m not sure what they say what torque their stocks need on Howa 1500s.
Winchester used screws in the barrel channels on some of their model 70s. Some people liked it and others hated it.

 

[mikehill85]

I like the hs precision stocks on my remy’s but they require 60in/Lbs torque. I’m not sure what they say what torque their stocks need on Howa 1500s.
Winchester used screws in the barrel channels on some of their model 70s. Some people liked it and others hated it.

According to HS Precision's instructions they are supposed to be torqued to 65 in-lbs on the HOWA 1500. That is on the high end of torque for stocks to be sure. The stocks are definitely good looking and I'm not certain the stock is to blame. The fact my barrel is on the thick size for a "sporter" and I see some rub marks inside the barrel channel tells me it probably isn't helping though.

 

[jcmullis2]

According to HS Precision's instructions they are supposed to be torqued to 65 in-lbs on the HOWA 1500. That is on the high end of torque for stocks to be sure. The stocks are definitely good looking and I'm not certain the stock is to blame. The fact my barrel is on the thick size for a "sporter" and I see some rub marks inside the barrel channel tells me it probably isn't helping though.

Yeah something is rubbing and probably screwing with the harmonics. If free floating doesn’t help by relieving the barrel channel with sandpaper and something round. I’d try dampening it like others have suggested.

 

[larryh128]

Yeah. I agree with you on that. 3-shot groups don't prove anything and in shooting there's a lot of self-delusion/superstition/confirmation bias that can occur. My barrel profile is HOWA's #4 profile which takes HS-Precision's "sporter" stock (or at least that's the stock that came from sportsman's with the gun). I believe #6 is their varmint profile and they have other profiles for their heavy barrels (though I couldn't find a whole lot of information on HOWA's barrel profiles).

It probably won't help but I do know that Weatherby's stocks have a pressure pad with their "sporter" barrels. I will try this and if it does drastically improve things (which I expect will be the case), I'll look at other options like epoxy bedding and opening up the barrel channel. This is a heavy profile barrel for a "sporter" stock and I see rub marks on the inside of the barrel channel so I suspect opening it up will help...I'd prefer to try less invasive options to start though.

If it is rubbing, it will never shoot. You have to open it up.

 

[mikehill85]

If it is rubbing, it will never shoot. You have to open it up.

If some pressure on the barrel doesn't help, I'm probably just going to epoxy bed it and in that case I'll open it up afterwards. Below are the marks I'm talking about. It seems to be rubbing on both sides near the chamber and on the left side of the barrel near the end of the stock. I'm not sure what is going on but this is the 2nd HS Precision stock giving me the same grief.

 

[CK1.0]

I wouldn't muck things up further with putting any pressure on the barrel on purpose (WTF?), or bedding it until you know what the f' is up...

If you suspect there's barrel contact and it's not truly free-floated, fix that first, then see what you get. And if you got epoxy on the front action screw (and possibly into the action), then might want to undo that catastrophe as well.

 

[Barelstroker]

I have no doubt that you should be able to improve on 1.5 MOA groups.
I didn't realise that the barrel was touching what looks to be along most of the length of the stock. When you said there were rub marks, I assumed that the barrel was free floated but touched only when fired.
As the other guys have said, I do agree that the stock needs relieving. Strange though. I would have thought that all that should have been sorted since the rifle is sold in that configuration.
Since the stock has to be relieved, lets hope that this is the source of the problems.

 

[mikehill85]

I have no doubt that you should be able to improve on 1.5 MOA groups.
I didn't realise that the barrel was touching what looks to be along most of the length of the stock. When you said there were rub marks, I assumed that the barrel was free floated but touched only when fired.
As the other guys have said, I do agree that the stock needs relieving. Strange though. I would have thought that all that should have been sorted since the rifle is sold in that configuration.
Since the stock has to be relieved, lets hope that this is the source of the problems.

Well, it does only rub when firing from what I can tell. I can run a piece of paper all the way along to the back of the gun. As you can see though, it is definitely rubbing and who knows if the bullet is out of the barrel by the time that rubbing occurs. I also took a look at the stock and there was inconsistent overspray (from painting the stock) all over the inside of the bedding block where the action contacts the bedding block. I painstakingly cleaned it up with a Q-tip and some acetone after work today. Hopefully that will give the stock and barreled action a better mating surface. Really baffling stuff from this stock. They machine a nice flat surface and then put paint all over it. LOL!

The rifle is marketed as being free floated but if you look on H-S Precision's website they say the stock is for a No. 2 contour barrel and this is a No. 4 contour which is thicker. I guess most people didn't notice the rubbing. Also, it does shoot about 1" 3-shot groups which is what they grantee in terms of precision but I suspect I can improve it if I get rid of the rubbing.

Any idea what paint I can use on this thing? I believe the area under the paint is foam and I want to paint the sanded area of the barrel channel after I open it up. I was thinking of using Brownells Aluma-Hyde II Epoxy Based paint.

 

[mikehill85]

I wouldn't muck things up further with putting any pressure on the barrel on purpose (WTF?), or bedding it until you know what the f' is up...

If you suspect there's barrel contact and it's not truly free-floated, fix that first, then see what you get. And if you got epoxy on the front action screw (and possibly into the action), then might want to undo that catastrophe as well.

There was a small amount in the front action screw hole but I cleaned it out with some acetone today and I can now see the threads for the barrel at the bottom of the hole. I don't think what was in there was enough to stop it from bottoming out but it can't hurt to have removed it.

Yeah, I guess I'll just try opening up the barrel channel. It seems pretty clear that the barrel is rubbing on the stock when the gun fires. I can pass a piece of paper between the barrel and stock but I suspect, given the clear wear/rub marks, the barrel is bouncing off the inside of the barrel channel after firing and isn't truly free floated. To add insult to injury, I noticed there was a bunch of overspray (from the painting process) on the aluminum bedding block (mostly in where the bottom of the recoil lug interfaces with the bedding block and a little bit where the back of the recoil lug sits). I painstakingly cleaned all that off with a Q-tip and acetone this evening. Wtf H-S Precision!? Wtf!?

 

[CK1.0]

Hope you get it figured out, barrel channel seems like the most likely culprit, didn't mean to sound like a dick earlier, but don't add any more variables to the mix was all I was getting at.

Not to make you paranoid, but make sure every bit of epoxy is out of that front action screw recess, I'd look at it with a borescope if you have to or do whatever you can to be 100% it's clear. With a Howa 1500 and the screw coming up through the lug, if there's something in there that is rigid enough to stop a screw but not rigid enough to stand up to a recoil impulse (like a little bit of dried epoxy), that would indeed be a crazy one to track down... could seriously be a real bummer if that's what's causing your accuracy issues because I doubt you could cure it for sure without pulling the barrel and getting it all out of there by pushing a screw through until "daylight" where the barrel tenon usually sits.

 

[mikehill85]

Hope you get it figured out, barrel channel seems like the most likely culprit, didn't mean to sound like a dick earlier, but don't add any more variables to the mix was all I was getting at.

Not to make you paranoid, but make sure every bit of epoxy is out of that front action screw recess, I'd look at it with a borescope if you have to or do whatever you can to be 100% it's clear. With a Howa 1500 and the screw coming up through the lug, if there's something in there that is rigid enough to stop a screw but not rigid enough to stand up to a recoil impulse (like a little bit of dried epoxy), that would indeed be a crazy one to track down... could seriously be a real bummer if that's what's causing your accuracy issues because I doubt you could cure it for sure without pulling the barrel and getting it all out of there by pushing a screw through until "daylight" where the barrel tenon usually sits.

Yeah there’s no epoxy in there now. I highly doubt that has anything to do with the fact the barrel is rubbing on the stock since the same marks were on the last stock before there was any epoxy in there and the gun shot the same. Also it could be fixed with a washer to make up difference in thickness if there were epoxy in there.

 

[Barelstroker]

Well, it does only rub when firing from what I can tell. I can run a piece of paper all the way along to the back of the gun. As you can see though, it is definitely rubbing and who knows if the bullet is out of the barrel by the time that rubbing occurs. I also took a look at the stock and there was inconsistent overspray (from painting the stock) all over the inside of the bedding block where the action contacts the bedding block. I painstakingly cleaned it up with a Q-tip and some acetone after work today. Hopefully that will give the stock and barreled action a better mating surface. Really baffling stuff from this stock. They machine a nice flat surface and then put paint all over it. LOL!

The rifle is marketed as being free floated but if you look on H-S Precision's website they say the stock is for a No. 2 contour barrel and this is a No. 4 contour which is thicker. I guess most people didn't notice the rubbing. Also, it does shoot about 1" 3-shot groups which is what they grantee in terms of precision but I suspect I can improve it if I get rid of the rubbing.

Any idea what paint I can use on this thing? I believe the area under the paint is foam and I want to paint the sanded area of the barrel channel after I open it up. I was thinking of using Brownells Aluma-Hyde II Epoxy Based paint.

Sorry, can't help with a suitable coating. I haven't had anything to do with those kinds of stocks.
On that subject though, you've stated this is the 2nd stock with the 1st being replaced because of inlet problems.
Before you go hacking into the stock, I think you should continue to pursue a suitable stock replacement. That is, after all, what you have paid for, & not some "make do" replacement thrown your way. If the stock indicates the inlet for a #2 contour, it is the incorrect stock & should be rectified at their expense & not yours.

 

[mikehill85]

Sorry, can't help with a suitable coating. I haven't had anything to do with those kinds of stocks.
On that subject though, you've stated this is the 2nd stock with the 1st being replaced because of inlet problems.
Before you go hacking into the stock, I think you should continue to pursue a suitable stock replacement. That is, after all, what you have paid for, & not some "make do" replacement thrown your way. If the stock indicates the inlet for a #2 contour, it is the incorrect stock & should be rectified at their expense & not yours.

Yeah. That’s true. I don’t want to void any warranties on a stock that typically retails for $400-$450. I sent HS Precision an email this morning explaining the situation and asking them if the stock that came with the gun was the correct one for the barrel profile. It says it is for the No. 2 profile on their website but who knows it might include all sported barrels. Better to ask them directly. Let’s see what they come back with. Last time they were very good about replacing the stock, unfortunately this stock is having similar issues…The original stock actually didn’t even have enough space to fit a sheet of paper under the barrel when the action screws were torqued to spec.

I may also reach out to HOWA/Legacy Sports, depending on what HS say.

 

[308pirate]

Why do people still by HS Precision crap?

Put that rifle in a decent chassis and watch it shoot.

 

[Barelstroker]

Why do people still by HS Precision crap?

Put that rifle in a decent chassis and watch it shoot.

What's the problem with HS precision gear?
I thought their rifles were pretty good.

 

[FisherT&C]

I haven't read every response. I would start with bedding, steel epoxy, glass or whatever. I've seen bedding straighten out alot of rifles. The most effective point to bed is the front recoil lug.

 

[mikehill85]

Why do people still by HS Precision crap?

Put that rifle in a decent chassis and watch it shoot.

Impressive group. Well, when I got it in 2019, the rifle with stock was only about $600. Also, it can double as a hunting rifle which isn't something a chassis rifle excels at. It's really all about what you plan on using the rifle for. The jury is still out as to the cause of the accuracy issues but it seems the stock is a strong contender. If the stock inletting proves to be the cause, then of course, in hindsight, I would have gone with a rifle that had a stock from a different company, especially considering that for this to happen I would have had to have gotten two stocks that were lemons in a row.

 

[mikehill85]

I haven't read every response. I would start with bedding, steel epoxy, glass or whatever. I've seen bedding straighten out alot of rifles. The most effective point to bed is the front recoil lug.

Yeah. That's what a lot of other people are saying. That said, it seems the barrel is rubbing on the stock which indicates to me there is an issue with the stock inletting or bedding block depth/angle. I may first try shimming the action to see if I can get it to effectively free float before doing anything that voids the stock's warranty.

 

[Barelstroker]

Here are some of my latest groups & load workups.
The good the bad & the ugly, they all count.
Most of these are 130 grn Speer HP 2005's. Different loads of ADI AR 8208 which is identical to IMR 8208.

 

[308pirate]

it seems the barrel is rubbing on the stock which indicates to me there is an issue with the stock inletting or bedding block depth/angle. I may first try shimming the action to see if I can get it to effectively free float before doing anything that voids the stock's warranty.

Most warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on. If this stock hasn't delaminated or split yet, you're not likely to ever have a warrantable claim.

Basically what I'm saying is that, if I were you, I'd forget about HS and their warranty and fix this thing the way it should be.

1. Sand the shit out of the barrel channel to clear it
2. Apply a thin skim coat of bedding compound to the barrel channel anywhere where the foam core might be exposed by sanding
3. Paint the barrel channel to match. Krylon the fucker, don't sweat the paint.
4. Follow one of the many youtube videos on how to bed actions and get to it.

 

[308pirate]

What's the problem with HS precision gear?
I thought their rifles were pretty good.

Isn't this thread evidence?

You tell me.........

Add Lon Horiuchi to the mix and fuck HS

 

[Barelstroker]

Isn't this thread evidence?

You tell me.........

Add Lon Horiuchi to the mix and fuck HS

Bugger me Pirate, you're a hard man. It isn't just one of HS's budget stock models is it.
Sounds as if you've got a sour taste.
Who is Lon Horiuchi?

 

[308pirate]

Bugger me Pirate, you're a hard man. It isn't just one of HS's budget stock models is it.

Budget model or not, it carries their name.

Sounds as if you've got a sour taste.

No because I'm smart. I learn from the mistakes of others.

Who is Lon Horiuchi?

Google his name, please.

 

[mikehill85]

Most warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on. If this stock hasn't delaminated or split yet, you're not likely to ever have a warrantable claim.

Basically what I'm saying is that, if I were you, I'd forget about HS and their warranty and fix this thing the way it should be.

1. Sand the shit out of the barrel channel to clear it
2. Apply a thin skim coat of bedding compound to the barrel channel anywhere where the foam core might be exposed by sanding
3. Paint the barrel channel to match. Krylon the fucker, don't sweat the paint.
4. Follow one of the many youtube videos on how to bed actions and get to it.

Yeah, well it would at least be nice to know if the stock I have is meant to be compatible with the barrel profile on the rifle. If it isn't and somehow the wrong model of stock was paired with my rifle, I may be able to sort this out without having to potentially ruin a $400-$450 stock. If it's the wrong stock, HS could send me new stocks in perpetuity and it would never resolve the problem.

I do think that changing the stock with yet a 3rd HS Precision stock won't resolve the issue though. I think since the No. 2 barrel is a "sporter" and the No. 4 barrel is also a "sporter", some genius probably figured the same stock would work fine for both...which doesn't appear to be the case (not here anyway). I just find it hard to believe that it is possible to get two lemons in a row from a premium stock manufacturer. My guess is that the to-spec stock probably just isn't compatible with the barrel profile.

 

[Barelstroker]

Budget model or not, it carries their name.


No because I'm smart. I learn from the mistakes of others.


Google his name, please.

Yeah right.
I've never heard of the cunt. I did watch the interview with a survivor of Waco.
If he was part of that &, he says he was, he's a P.O.S
A quote from his Libro del viso page:

"Lon Horiuchi Fan Page
2tSlSdp3ol oAonusguorsfmt 20usledie13coe · Norfolk, NE, United States ·
How time flies! Seems like only 21 years ago today I was confronted by a woman armed with an assault baby and had to make a life or death decision.....Not life or death for me...Someone else".

 

[308pirate]

Yeah right.
I've never heard of the cunt. I did watch the interview with a survivor of Waco.
If he was part of that &, he says he was, he's a P.O.S
A quote from his Libro del viso page:

"Lon Horiuchi Fan Page
2tSlSdp3ol oAonusguorsfmt 20usledie13coe · Norfolk, NE, United States ·
How time flies! Seems like only 21 years ago today I was confronted by a woman armed with an assault baby and had to make a life or death decision.....Not life or death for me...Someone else".

Lon Horiuchi = Ruby Ridge

Whether he was at Waco or not, I don't know

 

[308pirate]

Yeah, well it would at least be nice to know if the stock I have is meant to be compatible with the barrel profile on the rifle. If it isn't and somehow the wrong model of stock was paired with my rifle, I may be able to sort this out without having to potentially ruin a $400-$450 stock. If it's the wrong stock, HS could send me new stocks in perpetuity and it would never resolve the problem.

I do think that changing the stock with yet a 3rd HS Precision stock won't resolve the issue though. I think since the No. 2 barrel is a "sporter" and the No. 4 barrel is also a "sporter", some genius probably figured the same stock would work fine for both...which doesn't appear to be the case (not here anyway). I just find it hard to believe that it is possible to get two lemons in a row from a premium stock manufacturer. My guess is that the to-spec stock probably just isn't compatible with the barrel profile.

Mate, it's your choice.

I just don't have a lot of patience when I know how to deal with the problem myself.

 

[spife7980]

Stocks are just playdoh, sand em and squish em until you get it to fit right and then bed the thing. Yeah it would be nice if it came right... but thats just not what happens with factory rifles.

Ill second the "replace it with something worth a shit" comments though.

 

[mikehill85]

Update: I contacted HOWA and according to them the stock that the gun came with was for the semi-heavy barrel model, which is what I have. Since the rifle isn't living up to their accuracy guarantee, they have offered to take a look at it and will either fix it or replace it. I guess it can't hurt to send it to them. If they actually fix it, it would save me a lot of time, money on wasted ammo, and frustration.

 

[Barelstroker]

Update: I contacted HOWA and according to them the stock that the gun came with was for the semi-heavy barrel model, which is what I have. Since the rifle isn't living up to their accuracy guarantee, they have offered to take a look at it and will either fix it or replace it. I guess it can't hurt to send it to them. If they actually fix it, it would save me a lot of time, money on wasted ammo, and frustration.

If they're coming to the party you may as well dance.
It's the best place to start IMHO.

 

[mikehill85]

If they're coming to the party you may as well dance.
It's the best place to start IMHO.

Yeah, I agree. It sucks having to send in your rifle and wait to get it back but in the long run it is probably the best move.

 

[CK1.0]

Update: I contacted HOWA and according to them the stock that the gun came with was for the semi-heavy barrel model, which is what I have. Since the rifle isn't living up to their accuracy guarantee, they have offered to take a look at it and will either fix it or replace it. I guess it can't hurt to send it to them. If they actually fix it, it would save me a lot of time, money on wasted ammo, and frustration.

I'm not a huge proponent of sending guns back when it's something one can figure out themselves, but your's is one of those cases where it's just probably the best move.

Yeah, you'd probably get it figured out, but like you said, the frustration of wasting the ammo and time/gas it'd take figuring it out isn't worth the satisfaction of curing it yourself anymore when the company is offering to help you with that. You did your due diligence, let them dick around with it now...

edit: If it turns out it's the stock... I'd ask Howa HQ if they wouldn't mind just dropping the barreled action into a KRG Bravo and be done with it.

 

[mikehill85]

I'm not a huge proponent of sending guns back when it's something one can figure out themselves, but your's is one of those cases where it's just probably the best move.

Yeah, you'd probably get it figured out, but like you said, the frustration of wasting the ammo and time/gas it'd take figuring it out isn't worth the satisfaction of curing it yourself anymore when the company is offering to help you with that. You did your due diligence, let them dick around with it now...

I'm the same way...I like to work on mechanical things so much that I became a Mechanical Engineer and love the satisfaction of fixing things myself. Generally, I'd rather buy tools and learn a new skill than pay someone else to do a job for me but given how expensive ammo is these days, gas to go to the range, time spent, etc., sending it in is pretty much a no-brainer for me.

Yes, it is probably due to the barrel rubbing on the stock (or the rubbing is a symptom of the underlying problem) but I don't have access to their specs or the precision measuring tools required to determine if it is the barreled action that is out of spec, the stock or some combination of the two. The fact both my HS-Precision stocks had the same rub marks on them leads me to believe it could well be the barreled action and if it is there isn't much I can do about that (not anything that would make monetary sense, in any case)...Anyway, it will soon be their problem. This forum has helped me to realize that I'm not just being too picky, the results aren't typical for the rifle, and helped me to pull the trigger on getting it sorted out by the manufacturer.

Yeah...If it's the stock I will ask them about the KRG Bravo...That would be two lemons in a row from HS which would mean they aren't a company I can trust...I hope for their sake it isn't. If you're charging $450-$500 for a stock, you're paying not to have problems like this...much less two in a row...

 

[CK1.0]

I'm no Mechanical Engineer, but I enjoy doing my own work if only because I've met some pretty dim gunsmiths and I'm impatient, and sadly many firearms just don't arrive setup correctly. I've managed to take apart and put back together some some pretty crazy guns, tough ones too like H&K's and Beretta's, not just easy ones like CZ's and AR's, that said, stock inletting and bedding is a whole other thing to me, almost in the realm of woodworking-type-craftsmanship, and that requires someone who actually knows what they're doing IMHO... once you break out that Dremel and you don't really know what you're doing shit can go south quick...

Unless you've spent some time in a shop doing that sort of thing, it's just best to let them handle it.

 

[mikehill85]

I'm no Mechanical Engineer, but I enjoy doing my own work if only because I've met some pretty dim gunsmiths and I'm impatient, and sadly many firearms just don't arrive setup correctly. I've managed to take apart and put back together some some pretty crazy guns, tough ones too like H&K's and Beretta's, not just easy ones like CZ's and AR's, but that said, stock inletting and bedding is a whole other thing to me, almost in the realm of woodworking-type-craftsmanship, and that requires someone who actually knows what they're doing IMHO... once you break out that Dremel and you don't really know what you're doing and shit can go south quick...

Unless you spent some time in a shop doing that sort of thing it's just best to let them handle it.

Yeah. That's the thing. I've not bedded an action myself before and I don't want to start on a $500 stock. I would most likely be able do it but I might also F it up, just due to lack of experience. It is a skill to bed a stock, which takes multiple attempts for most people to get perfect and I respect the Hell out of people who can do it well.

Yeah, it's certainly true not all gunsmiths are created equally. I once saw a video online of a "gunsmith" showing how to remove a squib from a revolver. They took a steel wood screw on an electric drill and shoved it in from the muzzle end. After they got the screw engaged with the bullet, they leveraged it out using steel plyers working against the crown. LOL! How about tapping it out with a brass rod?! I'm no gunsmith but even I know better than to do that.

 

[DocRDS]

Bugger me Pirate, you're a hard man. It isn't just one of HS's budget stock models is it.
Sounds as if you've got a sour taste.
Who is Lon Horiuchi?

He's a grumpy ass fuck, but knows some shit. You get used to it. And you learn a lot too.