Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

[Jayman_10X]

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to see if anyone can share similar experiences to what my brother is currently experiencing with his new GAP Templar. It is chambered in 260 Rem, has a 22" (or 23", can't recall), Bartlein Palma contour. He bought the rifle new about 2 months ago. He is an experienced shooter and reloader.
I observed him follow GAP's recomended break-in procedure. Once that was complete he proceeded with load development and that's when the issues began. His issue is the first 5 round group from a clean barrel will throw all 5 into one ragged hole, figuratively speaking (0.1-0.2 MOA) at 100 yds. He is pacing his rounds, maybe taking 15-20 seconds, or so, between shots (He's shooting in the Minnesota winter too, so the barrel is not heating up nearly as much as during summer.) After the first dozen, or so, rounds leave the barrel, things go awry - groups open up for no apparent reason. The rifle essentially goes from a consistent .2 MOA rifle to maybe 1 MOA. Neither of us can figure out what on earth is going on. To date he has put about 200 rounds through the barrel.

Question - anyone have a similar issue? Maybe the barrel needs more breakin or is an odd reject? I don't know.

I welcome any advice/shared experiences. And questions.

thanks,

Jason

 

[Mike]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Jason, after it starts to open up, has a new shooter stepped up to shoot it? My groups would open up after a few dozen rounds too. Eliminate shooter input and try it.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jason, after it starts to open up, has a new shooter stepped up to shoot it? My groups would open up after a few dozen rounds too. Eliminate shooter input and try it. </div></div>

No. He is the only shooter.

thanks,
Jason

 

[smschulz]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

It is easy to lose concentration while shooting sometimes.
Probably shooter error.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Is he cleaning it between outings?

Is this with one load or is he still testing?

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Jason,

While it could be shooter error as suggested by others, it is my experience that Iif it will shoot a really good group when it's clean and doesn't after several rounds have been fired it might be that he is experiencing copper build up. It might be a good idea to run a wet patch through the barrel after he shoots it some and then take a flashlight and look for copper streaks at the muzzle. If these are present it might be a good idea to take a very aggressive copper cleaner and scrub the heck out of the barrel then shoot it a couple of times and repeat if necessary .

I know he must be terribly frustrated and hopefully this will help.

Good luck,
Dustin

 

[Muttt]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Stop cleaning it and shoot it. After 200 rounds, you are pretty much past your break-in.

 

[wchartz]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

I have a fair amount of experience in shooting new factory and custom barrels. I would be willing to bet that the break in or lack there of has nothing to do with this problem. It is more likely shooter error or a strange barrel defect. I do like the advice to let another experienced shooter try this gun.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

I would continue the load development and try to work up a load that works with the rifle when it's clean AND once its fouled. It's likely he just found a combination that works great thru a clean barrel. Not so much thru a fouled one. Highly unlikely the rifle is defective. My $0.02... FWIW.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smschulz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is easy to lose concentration while shooting sometimes.
Probably shooter error.
</div></div>

Thanks for the reply, but it's probably not. This guy is a very good shot. And it's not a one-time occurence, the issue has become a pattern strung out over the past month now.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is he cleaning it between outings?

Is this with one load or is he still testing? </div></div>

Yes, he cleans between outings.

This is occcuring with almost every load he's tried. Even the rounds he used to break the barrel in - just run of the mill low pressure rounds that weren't intended to shoot anything better than Minute of pig pen. Even those shot great initially before opening up by the second or third group.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would continue the load development and try to work up a load that works with the rifle when it's clean AND once its fouled. It's likely he just found a combination that works great thru a clean barrel. Not so much thru a fouled one. Highly unlikely the rifle is defective. My $0.02... FWIW.
</div></div>

Thanks oneshot,
Yeah - as mentioned before the rifle screams accuracy. Being a GAP there's small chance of any defect, but this whole issue does not make sense to me. I am 99% certain it is not shooter error. It's not like he isn't capable of pulling a round or two during a string, as we all are, but he is a better than average shooter with a lot experience. On the rifle he has a new scope and rings. He has checked all screws, action screws, pulled the barreled action out to check the bedding, no issues found. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[Jmilera]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Stop cleaning the rifle, I fire approximately 200 - 300 rds in my gap rifles and AW rifles before I even think of cleaning them. More damage is caused by cleaning than the actual firing of a bullet down the pipe. I asked george what he actually did for his own set up and he told me to just load and f&/ken shoot.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smschulz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is easy to lose concentration while shooting sometimes.
Probably shooter error.
</div></div>

I agree with your first sentence. And if this were a one time, or even two or three time event I'd probably agree with you about shooter error and you'd never have to read my rubbish here. But over multiple range sessions this pattern is occuring. I think I might put forth to him to try changing scopes and see if this makes any difference. Also to check the lands to see if any unusual copper fouling exists.

If he gets same results I guess the final move is he tries contacting GAP again to see if they can check the bore.

Thanks to all for your input,

Jason

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jmilera</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stop cleaning the rifle, I fire approximately 200 - 300 rds in my gap rifles and AW rifles before I even think of cleaning them. More damage is caused by cleaning than the actual firing of a bullet down the pipe. I asked george what he actually did for his own set up and he told me to just load and f&/ken shoot. </div></div>

Thanks Jmilera,

If I understand you correct he needs to "shoot" his way out of the potential fouling issue? I'm in 100% agreement with you when it comes to cleaning. Indeed it is shown more damage is caused by overcleaning. The problem is how much expensive ammo/powder, etc. and time is necessary before he stops shooting subpar groups, just throws his hands up and says "Now what?"

You know?

 

[Jmilera]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

George is a good guy he probably will take a look at it for him. Just the cost of shipping. I would probably call him

 

[frankythefly]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Is this reloads or factory Ammo? Try Factory Ammo and report back.

 

[coryj]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks oneshot,
Yeah - as mentioned before the rifle screams accuracy. Being a GAP there's small chance of any defect, but this whole issue does not make sense to me. I am 99% certain it is not shooter error. It's not like he isn't capable of pulling a round or two during a string, as we all are, but he is a better than average shooter with a lot experience. On the rifle he has a new scope and rings. He has checked all screws, action screws, pulled the barreled action out to check the bedding, no issues found. Just doesn't make sense. </div></div>

Everything is tight, what about swapping the scope to a known good scope. You mentioned this is a new scope, maybe something is wrong with the scope? Or vice versa, try the scope on a known good rifle. Just trying to eliminate variables.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Jayman,

Do you have any pictures of the groups so we can see how they pattern? Are the groups opening up, stringing, wandering or just getting bigger? More info is really needed. Is he using the exact same ammo for all groups?

A quality barrel should be able to maintain zero from cold to smoking hot. Otherwise, something is wrong with the barrel.

I understand that you have a quality gun here with a respected gunsmith that put it all together. Sometimes, things just happen even if all things are done right.

One thing you may want to look at is if the bedding has a support pad just forward of the recoil lug, maybe it is causing pressure on the barrel when it expands from the heat of firing multiple rounds.


I have a 223 barrel that does fine for two groups and then begins to open up. The thing about this barrel is that the groups begin to walk down and slightly right as the barrel heats up. This is due to some residual stress in the barrel and it shows as the barrel warms.

If I let it cool for about a half hour, then the impact point goes back to where it started and I can repeat this process over and over.

This barrel is a factory Savage sporter and it is 22" long. I am gonna cut it to 17" and see what effect, if any, it has on the wandering zero problem. Hopefully it will cure it, but if not, I have two other much better barrels for it.

Now, for some info closer to what your buddy is experiencing.
I USED to have a Ruger stainless 77MK II in 7-Mag. Starting with a clean barrel it would place three 140 gr Ballistic Tips in under a half inch. Next group, same thing. However, once I got past 12 rounds down the barrel (cold, hot, warm, it didn't matter)the groups would start opening up rapidly. By the time it had 25 down the tube, the thing was shooting 2-1/2 inch groups. As soon as the barrel was cleaned, it would go back to the small groups, and I could repeat the process with it over and over again. I loved the gun, but ended up trading it for a 243 Remington Varmint Special.

You could just have one of those barrels that refuse to shoot when fouled. My 7-08 doesn't shoot well UNTIL it is fouled...

Just remember, when troubleshooting anything and I mean anything, CHANGE ONLY ONE THING AT A TIME, or you will never know what the fix really was. Documenting everything also helps put things into perspective. Sometimes when reviewing the documentation, something will stand out.

Last thing on my long-winded reply. I have moved away from all of my large caliber (and magnum) firearms and shoot mostly 6 BR and smaller. When I pull the trigger on something like my 7-08 or one of my 308's, I feel like I'm touching off my old 375 H&H. Shooter fatigue sets in pretty quick now...

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike Casselton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jayman,

Do you have any pictures of the groups so we can see how they pattern? Are the groups opening up, stringing, wandering or just getting bigger? More info is really needed. Is he using the exact same ammo for all groups?

A quality barrel should be able to maintain zero from cold to smoking hot. Otherwise, something is wrong with the barrel.

I understand that you have a quality gun here with a respected gunsmith that put it all together. Sometimes, things just happen even if all things are done right.

One thing you may want to look at is if the bedding has a support pad just forward of the recoil lug, maybe it is causing pressure on the barrel when it expands from the heat of firing multiple rounds.


I have a 223 barrel that does fine for two groups and then begins to open up. The thing about this barrel is that the groups begin to walk down and slightly right as the barrel heats up. This is due to some residual stress in the barrel and it shows as the barrel warms.

If I let it cool for about a half hour, then the impact point goes back to where it started and I can repeat this process over and over.

This barrel is a factory Savage sporter and it is 22" long. I am gonna cut it to 17" and see what effect, if any, it has on the wandering zero problem. Hopefully it will cure it, but if not, I have two other much better barrels for it.

Now, for some info closer to what your buddy is experiencing.
I USED to have a Ruger stainless 77MK II in 7-Mag. Starting with a clean barrel it would place three 140 gr Ballistic Tips in under a half inch. Next group, same thing. However, once I got past 12 rounds down the barrel (cold, hot, warm, it didn't matter)the groups would start opening up rapidly. By the time it had 25 down the tube, the thing was shooting 2-1/2 inch groups. As soon as the barrel was cleaned, it would go back to the small groups, and I could repeat the process with it over and over again. I loved the gun, but ended up trading it for a 243 Remington Varmint Special.

You could just have one of those barrels that refuse to shoot when fouled. My 7-08 doesn't shoot well UNTIL it is fouled...

Just remember, when troubleshooting anything and I mean anything, CHANGE ONLY ONE THING AT A TIME, or you will never know what the fix really was. Documenting everything also helps put things into perspective. Sometimes when reviewing the documentation, something will stand out.

Last thing on my long-winded reply. I have moved away from all of my large caliber (and magnum) firearms and shoot mostly 6 BR and smaller. When I pull the trigger on something like my 7-08 or one of my 308's, I feel like I'm touching off my old 375 H&H. Shooter fatigue sets in pretty quick now... </div></div>

Thanks Mike. That's sound advice. I agree the scope should be swapped out and checked. Barring any issues there, I think he sends it to the shop for inspection.


Jason

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

Besides saying he followed GAP's breakin procedure how is he cleaning it?

Call GAP and ask them what to do should be your first stop. If you still need help drop me a line.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Conrad]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

What kind of powder is he using? I'd place this speculation lower on the list of ideas, but if it's a temp sensitive powder and you say he's pacing himself...after 12 rounds or so as stated, the chamber might be warm enough to "cook" it some causing velocity variance if a temp sensitive powder. I don't know his shooting sequence though. If he ejects the spent case, and then waits a bit, or if he immediately chambers a new round and takes his time on the next shot. Granted I know you say it's cold up there, etc. I'd suspect barrel/fouling issues first, but just a thought.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. Advice needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides saying he followed GAP's breakin procedure how is he cleaning it?

Call GAP and ask them what to do should be your first stop. If you still need help drop me a line.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

To be more specific I would like to know how it's being cleaned. Types of cleaners, methods etc.....

Also how much copper is in the bore? Is the barrel cleaning easy or is it being really difficult?

Also have you tried different bullets? Sorry I haven't read the whole thread!

Different manufacter of bullets been tried or if just same maker of bullets have you tried a different lot? Bullets and the copper jackets can vary from lot to lot and can have an effect on fouling as well and most people don't even think about it.

Need more information.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. **SOLVED**

Friends,

Finally able to close the loop on this one. It was the seating depth! He was seating his rounds too long, I think he inadvertantly followed mimiced the seating depth from my 260 Rem/APA rounds. He found out recently when upon ejecting a loaded round from the chamber that came out tight, he noticed rifling marks on the bullet. He suspected he was getting pressure spikes. Thus, he seated the rounds back another 0.020", or so, and tried again - MONEY! He put 3 rounds remaining of his 140 gr. AMAX lot into 0.111" at 100m from a bench. (I wish I could show you the picture of the group he sent to my cell phone but I cannot get that picture out my phone). And then he put 4 rounds of 139 gr Scenars into 0.131" just to prove his point. As suspected at the beginning the rifle is perfect. Can't beat those great Bartlein barrels - how about it Frank?

Thanks for all the great input guys, really appreciate it.

Jason

 

[reloader-1]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. **SOLVED**

Good deal! Thanks for coming back to the thread and updating it. All too often I read of "problems" and the solution is never posted, which can be frustrating if you have the same occurrence.

Any pics of the gun?

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. **SOLVED**

I do not have any. It basically looks just like the GAP Crusader shown on the home page.


thanks,
Jason

 

[Elvis]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. **SOLVED**

I had GAP build me an AR with an 18" .260 Bartlein barrel. Shot it while I was home on leave. I used three different bullet weights, and the best group I got was well over an inch. Until I get done with this deployment and have time to get back and work with it, I am assuming it was the cold weather fucking with my shooting since the other GAPs I've had built are all tack drivers. I have to admit it worries me a bit though.

 

[Jayman_10X]

Re: Accuracy trouble during breakin. **SOLVED**

Elvis,

Someone on here last year recommended Southwest Ammo for the GAP-10's.

http://www.southwestammunition.com/product_p/308175smk-premium.htm

Others have reported great results. Might want to try that. I read somewhere they run H4350.


thanks,
Jason