If you set up an AR with a 4x32 ACOG, do you need some kind of top or side mounted red dot for close targets? I guess I am asking because I am setting up a 16 inch upper and looking at different options including LPVOs.
ACOG question
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When i had mine, i ran a RMR at 12 oclock. While ive switched to an Elan 1/4, the principal is the same: fast shots in close or when running plate carriers, gas masks (very rare in civilian applications) binocular NODs passively and/or a heavier back pack.
I strongly recommend an RMR in addition to any primary optic (acog, lpvo, etc) if any of the above apply.
I strongly recommend an RMR in addition to any primary optic (acog, lpvo, etc) if any of the above apply.
I ran a holosun 508t on the RMR boss mount. The cool thing was that because it’s a circle dot reticle. I could use the bottom of the circle as my < 10 yards aiming point.
I actually don’t mind the high height over bore for that. It also works as passive sight for my Aurora NV. The issue with the TA31 is the eye relief. The Ta11 has really good eye relief but it’s quite heavier and poor FOV. I have a Ta33 with a 508t myself because it’s the lighter one and doesn’t suffer from the eye relief issue but what that kind of money I could probably find a used NX8 1-8 and have a better all around system.
There is a lot of very decent 1-4 and 1-6 LPVO with daytime bright reticle ... it’s not 2010 anymore. Sure the Acog is very reliable and good glass but are you planning to compete, or purely a SD ? Because for SD nothing beats an Aimpoint T2. The acog isn’t a good performer at night with a flashlight. If you plan to bang steels, probably a used Razor 1-6 E would be a much much better option.
I actually don’t mind the high height over bore for that. It also works as passive sight for my Aurora NV. The issue with the TA31 is the eye relief. The Ta11 has really good eye relief but it’s quite heavier and poor FOV. I have a Ta33 with a 508t myself because it’s the lighter one and doesn’t suffer from the eye relief issue but what that kind of money I could probably find a used NX8 1-8 and have a better all around system.
There is a lot of very decent 1-4 and 1-6 LPVO with daytime bright reticle ... it’s not 2010 anymore. Sure the Acog is very reliable and good glass but are you planning to compete, or purely a SD ? Because for SD nothing beats an Aimpoint T2. The acog isn’t a good performer at night with a flashlight. If you plan to bang steels, probably a used Razor 1-6 E would be a much much better option.
I am looking at doing some three gun. In all honesty my strength as a competitor currently is Pistol>Shotgun>AR. I think my AR issue is that I gravitated to two over gassed sub 12.5" setups that are not really a fit for three gun. I am looking at going 16 or 18" on the upper, I have a very good lower already built and will probably swap out the trigger and be done with it.
While I have been watching the competitions, there does not seem to be a standard setup for the ARs. I see barrels from 14.5 to 20 inches. I see red dots plus magnifiers. A lot of LPVOs, I have seen some ELCANs. For me specifically, I hit the dreaded 50 and my eyes finally decided to betray me. I have developed a stigmatism and the red dots are no longer my friend. I am really focused on the etched reticles at this point.
The Good
I have a TA-33. Its only 3X mag and its got lots of eye relief (unlike the Forex ACOGs).
I used it for the first time in a class back in August.
Using the circle dot it worked out very well for me. I think I would prefer Chevron but I didnt know that when I bought it from the PX.
We shot from 15 yards or so back to 300 yards.
Where it seemed to shine was this thing called "The Jungle Run" at Sig Sauer Academy. You start at apprx 200 yards firing on a single steel plate with a partner. Your first shots are in the prone. You have two 30 round mags. First shooter has to double tap the steel, ditto second shooter before moving to next position. The positions are in the woods and you are met with terrain obstacles that you have to take the best field shooting position you can to get a hit. Most of the peeps were using an LPVO or red dot with magnifier. I was the only one with an ACOG AND the only one to make it through with save rounds in my second magazine. My partner was using an LPVO and his gun went dry with one hit needed to be made on the last target. There are twenty +/- firing positions it seemed like....I didnt count. No other group made it to the last firing position. Im not blowing my own horn but I was sporting a performance boner.
This is pretty much the course......They showed less firing than there is and we didnt have any height obstacles though we did shoot from the tower using the stairs. They were not trying to kill the fat guys.
If I made a mistake it was not zeroing at 50 yards instead of 100. At 50 my center point would have been close for anything near 250. I hit both my 200 yard shots holding between the top post and the center dot so it didnt matter but a 50 yard zero may have helped on the longer shots.
The Bad
NO OCULAR ADJUSTMENT MEANS YOU WILL BE USING YOUR PRESCRIPTION LENSES AND YOU ARE AT THE MERCY OF THEIR BEING FUCKED UP. EVEN WITH MY LIGHT PRESCRIPTION THE ACOG RETICLE DISAPPEARS WITHOUT RX. THE CLEAR ASS GLASS IS USELESS IF YOU HAVE NO RETICLE.
I meant to shout that out.
PS - I used my LMT with a 20 inch barrel. Usually I take classes with a job gun Smith & Wesson M&P in a standard 16.5 M4ish configuration with an Aimpoint PRO. The Pro would have been tough at distance with no magnification.
PSS - It is easy to argue why there are lots of optics better than an ACOG but I think for weight, realistic considerations of shooting distances to be encountered, and brick shit house build there are also solid conservative reasons to also choose an ACOG.
I have a TA-33. Its only 3X mag and its got lots of eye relief (unlike the Forex ACOGs).
I used it for the first time in a class back in August.
Using the circle dot it worked out very well for me. I think I would prefer Chevron but I didnt know that when I bought it from the PX.
We shot from 15 yards or so back to 300 yards.
Where it seemed to shine was this thing called "The Jungle Run" at Sig Sauer Academy. You start at apprx 200 yards firing on a single steel plate with a partner. Your first shots are in the prone. You have two 30 round mags. First shooter has to double tap the steel, ditto second shooter before moving to next position. The positions are in the woods and you are met with terrain obstacles that you have to take the best field shooting position you can to get a hit. Most of the peeps were using an LPVO or red dot with magnifier. I was the only one with an ACOG AND the only one to make it through with save rounds in my second magazine. My partner was using an LPVO and his gun went dry with one hit needed to be made on the last target. There are twenty +/- firing positions it seemed like....I didnt count. No other group made it to the last firing position. Im not blowing my own horn but I was sporting a performance boner.
This is pretty much the course......They showed less firing than there is and we didnt have any height obstacles though we did shoot from the tower using the stairs. They were not trying to kill the fat guys.
If I made a mistake it was not zeroing at 50 yards instead of 100. At 50 my center point would have been close for anything near 250. I hit both my 200 yard shots holding between the top post and the center dot so it didnt matter but a 50 yard zero may have helped on the longer shots.
The Bad
NO OCULAR ADJUSTMENT MEANS YOU WILL BE USING YOUR PRESCRIPTION LENSES AND YOU ARE AT THE MERCY OF THEIR BEING FUCKED UP. EVEN WITH MY LIGHT PRESCRIPTION THE ACOG RETICLE DISAPPEARS WITHOUT RX. THE CLEAR ASS GLASS IS USELESS IF YOU HAVE NO RETICLE.
I meant to shout that out.
PS - I used my LMT with a 20 inch barrel. Usually I take classes with a job gun Smith & Wesson M&P in a standard 16.5 M4ish configuration with an Aimpoint PRO. The Pro would have been tough at distance with no magnification.
PSS - It is easy to argue why there are lots of optics better than an ACOG but I think for weight, realistic considerations of shooting distances to be encountered, and brick shit house build there are also solid conservative reasons to also choose an ACOG.
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...what is your definition of "close"? Most if not all of the LPVO's claim they provide the same function as a RDS when on the 1x setting, but it would be dependent on eye relief & alignment. You could end up with "eye-box shadowing" causing one to "hunt" for the dot on a LPVO, IMHO. In competitions, time is a factor, you are faced with the "hunt" or rotating to the side mounted RDS. There are mounts that have rails on the top ring that you can mount a RDS to and the dot can be adjusted to a POA/POI for your "close range" targets (or you can learn the offset holdovers) which will allow you to keep the rifle mounted and inline with your movements in a "run & gun" scenario. YMMV
In the classes I have attended none of the students have been operators.
I did note that LPVO shooters seemed to mess with their optics more.
I have no choice as either the PRO or the ACOG are set and forget.
Really the only thing to be concerned with is being well inside your zero, another reason why 50 is where I should have zeroed at.
Its generally only one drill of concern that will get you - two to the body, one to the head.
You have to hold the sight offset for the head shot to be in the desired T zone. You can fudge it a little on the body shots but the head shot needs to be where it needs to be.
...FWIW, the dot size is a factor, i.e, 3MOA dot covers ~1.5" at 50YDS, putting bottom of dot atop the target "head" will impact between "teeth" & "forehead", at least in my experience with my RDS that is co-witnessed with my BUIS. One can also use the the base or top of the aperture below and above the dot as a reference point for near/far targeting as needed. It really comes down to testing & practicing to determine what works best for you.
...very true, they also have the version that allows mounting of an RMR between the occular and turret. 
One thing I need to note is that most of the time I am shooting any hit on steel is a hit.
Real shooters worry about stuff like A,B,C zones.
I meant to PSS my last message but Ihad to fix my sons head with the hair clippers because he let one of his friends cut his hair today.
In regards to your post.....yep.
I usually set my red dot to make a beanie on top of the skull line.
Managing the Red dot intensity is another issue with the PRO I use low intensity to high for far to close shots respectively. Not much choice with the ACOG.
You'll need something other than an Acog if you wanna be fast. Which is the point of three gun.
And the optics standard in 3g is the G2 Razor 1-6x. There's a lot of optics that perform similarly but none have the track record of being smashed into shotguns and dump barrels that the Razor has.
Barrel length will be partially decided by the matches you attend. If you're in Texas you'll see the best guys gravitating towards 16-18" guns and spending good money on them. In bay matches you'll see a lot of 13.5-16" guns and usually on the less expensive end of the spectrum since they're mostly bullet hoses and don't need to be Bartleins. 14.5 and 16 definitely gets it done across the board though. Remember most 400-600 yard targets are going to be pretty big, the emphasis will be on position building rather than velocity or pinpoint accuracy.
Yeah I am in Texas, the trend for some reason currently is toward 18 inch barrels. I am guessing it is for the rifle length gas system and reduced recoil.
Yes, that's definitely a benefit, but you can go shorter with RLGS and even shorter yet with intermediate gas and still have 90+ percent of the RLGS performance.
What I've gathered from all the southwest 3 gunners I've talked to is that the matches trend towards open terrain vs. bay, so the longer barrels aren't in any way a hindrance to maneuverability and the extra few feet per second of velocity can only help in the silly winds you guys always talk about down there.
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