Gunsmithing Action choices and Gunsmith views **action purchased**

[18Echo]

Update: Purchased a Kelbly Atlas Long action from Greg Young. Spectacular value and price for what you get.


So I'm working on putting together a list of parts for a new dedicated hunting rifle. I know I'm going to use a Proof CF barrel, and a lightweight stock, but I'm wrapped around the axle on an action. I've read the action really doesn't matter a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, that it's the barrel and chamber job done by the smith. Do you agree with this premise?

for a hunting rifle is a $1400 defiance or big horn necessary, or will an $850 Gunwerks GRB or $950 Atlas tactical be just a good?

Would you stick to a dedicated "hunting action" like a Borden Timberline, SR3, GRB or is a "tactical" action workable too?

I also plan to run a BDL set up, chamber in 7RemMag, is a Wyatt's extended necessary for 168's and 180 VLDs?

I appreciate your expertise and advice..

 

[beretta_man11]

I just heard that Impact was coming out with a Titanium action, that'd be pretty slick.

 

[Primus]

Order one of those new Mausingfield hunting actions just announced. The pinnacle of actions.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Possibly just grab a CRF Model 70, stainless if you prefer, and save the rest for a hunt or whatever else you may desire?

 

[Stooxie]

Just one person's opinion but, no, it doesn't matter a whole lot. I have recently been going through the same gyrations, trying to build my ideal hunting rifle platform. I have to come to grips with a few things which might help you:

1. I am shooting deer, not xenomorphs from the movie Aliens.

2. I've never had feeding problems from pushfeed actions. I have had problems with CRF actions
(as a note, I like the idea of CRF, but it does mean the action will be more picky. That's simple math)

3. Prices go north VERY quickly with this stuff. Is 0.5 MOA at 200 yards good enough or do I really need the "utlimate" in accuracy?

4. I'm not shooting deer or xenomorphs at 800 yards. Well, Maybe xenomorphs.

5. I can never find the right mix of what I want in these custom actions. I would like nitride. I do NOT want a 20MOA rail. I would take a Remington footprint with a Savage tennon. I don't need a super massive recoil lug that requires a custom inlet stock.

6. I can't figure out the magazine choices and what would work with what-- that's just me, I don't have the patience (or the need).

Etc.

BTW, "tactical" vs "hunting" action doesn't matter. It's just what options are available and what kind of marketing claims they want to make.

In the end I decided that since I'm such a fan of Tikka rifles, and they provide me almost everything I'm looking for, why not build something custom off that? So I can get a completely custom rifle for roughly $1,500 instead of spending the same for just the action, or maybe the action and trigger. Not saying you should go this route, just that these super-expensive actions are not required to build a beautiful, high accuracy rifle.

Picture below is of my "Tikka" T3 action, Criterion 18" 7mm-08 nitride barrel (threaded) with custom contour (close to a medium Palma), 1.5 pound factory trigger, GRS laminate stock (that I got on sale for 50% off), Zeiss Victory HT scope. Cerakote work and bolt fluting done by LRI.

HTH

-Stooxie

 

[Stooxie]

Just for the "marketing" message bit, the rifle pictured below is a sub 1/3 MOA all day rifle, with AE GTV 223 or Hornady AG HP 223 ammo. It's a bone stock T3 Scout (a limited run from 2010-2012 with crazy heavy 20" barrel, heavier than the CTR). I added the light trigger spring and bedded the action myself in a GRS stock. Total price: $1,300 for everything but the scope.

It's just not true that you need to spend thousands of dollars to get what you're looking for. Just have to pick and choose the right components.

That said, if I had the cash would I be buying these expensive actions. Probably! I like cool toys as much as anyone!

-Stooxie

 

[Ledzep]

-Accuracy note: You can screw a bartlein with a straight chamber onto a Mosin Nagant and it will print knotholes. Been done several times.

The action is there to hold it all together. There are some things to consider in terms of how they "feel", materials, wear, etc... But honestly, most anything will work. As soon as you step to improving feel/function over the commonly available hunting rifles, you're stepping into the land of diminishing returns and it's all bonus/style/coolguy points. A Ruger American Predator in .65cm creedmoor or .308 even will take anything in America out to 400.

1. Most hunting rifles are low-use items (relatively)
2. Most hunting scenarios are 1 or 2 shots at 30-200yd on 6-12" targets
3. Only dangerous game really poses an interest in reliability

So again, most anything will work. The exceptions are the guys shooting stuff at long range (400-800+), and that is a niche. If that's what you intend to do, the biggest thing is cutting weight,esp. if you're doing this up in the mountains.. WHILE retaining accuracy/repeatability for the longer shots. How far you want to go in weight reduction is up to your wallet...

If you're talking a deer, elk, moose rifle. The difference in weight between a titanium action and a typical SS/CM action is probably negligible. If you're one of those crazy fuckers that hikes 50 miles up at 6000-10000ft, it might be something to consider.

If you just want to spend money, spend it.

ETA: My personal preference for a hunting action would be a Tikka T3 or Winchester 70/FN with the Mauser claw.

 

[Primus]

Yeah the truth is there are so many factory options out there for hunting rifles, unless you have some obscure caliber or must have custom feature, it's hard to justify a custom hunting gun. A Tikka , Howa, Sako or Winchester will more than satisfy the needs of 95% of hunters. There is even factory carbon barrels now and you can't build a gun as cheap as u can buy one already together. Smith fees be expensive.

 

[LRI]

I like to try and drive this off the application. Hunting. The word conjures up the vision of just blood red American man stuff. Classical guns with clean lines, etc. . .

IF that is your little slice of heaven, then the action becomes fairly important in terms of features. BDL/ADL type guns always work better with an open archetecture loading/ejection port. The ability to gas up the mag box and/or clear it just becomes easier when there is room to get your fingers in there. When you think of colder climates, its even more relevant as fingers are often wearing gloves.

Push feed vs controlled round feeding is a debate all in itself. CRF's are kind of a big deal when the critter can eat you as well which is why they are heavily favored in Africa, Canada, and Alaska by PH services. A well fitted PF though is known to work really well too. It just boils down to what is important to you and what your willing to pay for. If my opinion matters, I favor the controlled round feed setup combined with a mechanical blade type ejector. Better control, shell purchase, and zero bias when the cartridge is chambered being why.

Feeding is a big deal. The most accurate rifle in the world is useless if you can't gas it up or clear it by simply running the bolt. Both PF and CRF actions have their limitations. Cartridge selection is a big, big deal in this also. All of these questions are something to consider when choosing a shop to do the work as so much of it is Tribal Knowledge. That can't be overstated enough imo.

Just maybe something to consider.

 

[McCrazy]

18 Bravos are better. DOL

I recommend you take a look at the Seekins Havak PH1 rifle. It has a custom action, Rock Creek barrel, detachable magazine, composite stock, and several calibers are available. From what reports I have seen, accuracy is about 1/2 moa. At $2200 MSRP, you won't be buying a custom action and getting it built for less. Get a discount or a coupon and you are even better off, but they are about $1900 on gun sale websites.

https://www.seekinsprecision.com/havak-bolt-action-rifle-3.html

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Tikka is a great Avenue to save coin and get a nice, smooth as butter, accurate rifle with the ease of a prefit barrel if u want to rebarrel. Any of the custom actions you mentioned will be a great option. It's all in what you want to be able to do with the rifle. Throw it in a KRG bravo for $350ish, and call it a day.

 

[moosemeat]

Get what ever you want. I prefer crf, but not hard and fast. I also prefer a floorplate vs mag. Ive never lost of forgot a floorplate.... Everything is feature driven. Personally I like win 70 crfs, sako 75s and 85s and Tikkas.
Set goals. Build rifle. Kill shit. Start at the first step.

 

[krw]

Rem 700. Have bolt face and action face squared. Have cut rifled bbl screwed on. My 260 will print 1/2 moa 90% of the time. I do not see the need for a custom action on a hunting rifle. But to ea his on

 

[Jackomason]

Features are a selling point. If a action is so well machined that you can take any shouldered barrel that's cut for it and screw it in with out gauges and be ready to go... that's pretty sweet and will save you $$$ look at the BH origin. And PVA makes shouldered barrels.

 

[GregSGPrecision]

If you're using the proof barrel, the Ti action from Tuebor is a thing of beauty as well

 

[XLR308]

The rifle I am just about finished with I am just under $2200 for everything.
Picked out everything the way I wanted it. Really the only thing left is to send it to JDUCOS for the adjustable cheek piece install.
Atlas Tactical action, Bartlien M24 barrel chambered by Kelblys, Greyboe Renegade with M5 bottom metal and a Trigger tech special with black finish and flat trigger shoe.

 

[spaniel]

I screw quality prefits onto factory Savage or Remington actions for my hunting rifles. Without fail, they are sub-.5 MOA. People fight about group sizes so I won't try to quantify further, but I will say if I dropped another $1K into these rifles it wouldn't be expecting better accuracy.

Features are another story. If you want to pay more for your favorite features in your hunting rifle, that's your call. But dropping more money expecting additional accuracy that's useful in a hunting situation is a waste.

 

[moosemeat]

Midwestgunworks has fn spr actions for a good deal...

 

[aard3]

I went with an ARCNucleus that is with LRI now... there are obvious situations when certain features are going to be desirable, but for most hunters I don't think the action matters much.

 

[wadebrown]

Here is my take on hunting actions, understand I am an engineer and come at the problem in a methodical way. First off I have decided to build a matching (roughly) pair of rifles in calibers 7x57 AI and a 9.3 x 62, both very traditional large ring Mauser 98 loadings. My goal is for two walnut stocked rifles with 1940-1950's look about them. I will primarily use the 9.3 for black bear hunting, which I now do more of than deer hunting. Although either of the two guns could be used interchangably for black bears or deer, but I like to hit bears with enough to drive a tipped bBarnes through fro any direction I have to use to make the shot if shots are limited.

Here is what I see as the functional requirements for hunting rifles for game deer size and up, I am not going to get into energy, bullet penetration or expansion, but I might use the guns to take deer to 400-500 yards and larger animals short of dangerous ones (I have a Mauser-actioned 416 Taylor in the safe for really big stuff, and a 375 Ruger for kind of big stuff, and lots of different means of reaching much further than I would normally while hunting.

Functional Requirements:

• Maintain a 1 MOA 3-shot group repeatedly out to 400 yards. More importantly is what cold-bore shot does and if it is not within 1MOA of POA something is wrong, maybe the barrel was cleaned and not seasoned before that fateful first shot.
• Extreme low possibility of failure, I have never short stroked a 700 but have spent 95% of my time hunting with Mausers of one flavor or another in my hand.
• A safety that locks the firing pin not just the trigger, when carrying a loaded gun all day I am much happier if I know the firing pin is locked back from hitting the primer. With the firing pin locked no matter how hard I fall or how high the gun gets dropped the chances are very slim it will go off. Swing safeties mounted on the bolt usually lock the firing pin, and they can be installed on Rem 700, although come stock on Win 70's.
• Secure mounting for scope to a one-piece base, this allows for a base mounting fastener to fail and still maintain precision requirement.
• Scope with a power of at least 9 at the top end and at no greater than 3 at the low end and must be very good in low light situations.
• A barrel no longer than 22 inches, I like fast handling guns, I would much rather have a rigid barrel than the extra 50 fps, trust me with my ranges chosen for these two guns 22 inches is more than enough. I can easily reach steel at 1,100 yards accurately with my 20 -inch MTU contour 30-375.
• A decent single-stage trigger that breaks cleanly at 2.5 pounds, I will not sacrifice trigger reliability for an extreme target trigger, the requirements are met without it.
• All weather gun, I have met this with quality wood-stocked guns that were well bedded and had all exposed wood interior and exterior hit with many coats of real linseed oil. The dimensional characteristics of wood can be held to meet the precision requirements if attention is paid. I have hunted with similar in all day rain and take effective shots, after a day of rain I am probably the weak link.

Desirements:

• For the most part built by me, I will have the side swing safety installed by someone else I am not set up to do that. I will do the final inletting and all finishing on the stocks and farm the checkering out.
• European two screw sling mounts, they look classy on a nice piece of wood and have some redundancy in fasteners.
• Controlled-round feed, I like this on my hunting guns and would use no other on when hunting in areas where the animals might decide to eat me or just kill me.
• Overall cartridge length not to exceed a workable magazine length without seating any bearing surface below the neck of the brass, boattail if present can protrude into gunpowder space and that is all/
• Cut-rifled barrel, although no one makes them in 9.3 mm so will have go with a good button-rifleld barrel, little loss in any functional characteristics I just like cut-rifled barrels.

Final Choices:

• Interarms Mark X Large Ring model 98 mauser actions, these were imported from Yugoslavia before the breakup and long embargo. I like Mausers and these are really pretty good actions, the runner ups were the FN-Mausers that Sears and JC-Higgins used to sell, I believe Models 50 and 51 but I would check first, these FN's are arguably some of the better Mausers imported. The Yugo's imported by Interarms may not be quite as high in quality as the FN's but will easily meet my needs. The Yugo's are in hand. Pre-64 style Win 70's (this includes the new productions CRF actions) would have fit this bill well, except I was really leaning towards European styles with the cartridges chosen, but that is strictly aesthetics.
• I like Blackburn bottom metal, although the bottom metal on the Yugo's is fine.
• I have ordered a 9.3 mm 1-9 Twist from Benchmark and a 7 mm 1-8.5 Twist from Bartlein, never skmip on barrel especially since we have so many choices out there that are just outstanding. Also I like to go with a little faster twist than many so I can get long bullets to stabilize.

These are probably different requirements than many would have, many hunters today feel they need to have a gun that will reach their given target animal at 1,000 yards. Getting the gun to reach an animal at 1,000 yards under most hunting conditions is the cheap part of the problem, I have spent hours and hours shooting at 1,000 yards on ranges and in the field and that I feel is far more expensive than a custom gun that will reach 1k. After having spent my time delivering lead to those ranges I would probably never take a shot on a game animal at over 600 yards as the wind plays too large a role at ranges beyond that to my being able to deliver a bullet to be assured that I kill that animal in a humane fashion and able to find the animal in a timely fashion so I can still consume the meat.

This is my opinion and it is based on the hunting morals that are important to me and to my experience shooting extensively out to ranges of 1,000 yards. I know there are better wind readers than me, lots of them, but what wind indicators do you have say shooting across a valley. When you think about the situations where you might have a long range shot presented to you quite a bit of teh bullet's path is well above he ground as there is probably a significant dip in the land between you and the target to see it at 1,000 yards, unless in the tundra or desert.

Just my two cents,
wade

 

[moosemeat]

Nucleus and LRI are excellent choices. Please post pic when you get it back shortly.

 

[wadebrown]

I heard from Bartlein I was wrong when I said they did not make 9.3 mm barrel blanks, they do make them.

Thanks
wade

 

[Stooxie]

I don't understand the Nucleus, or maybe the principle behind it. What is that "thing" at the back of the rail? Some kind of tool? It seems very complicated.

-Stooxie

 

[Jackomason]

I don't understand the Nucleus, or maybe the principle behind it. What is that "thing" at the back of the rail? Some kind of tool? It seems very complicated.

-Stooxie

Yeah, just by watching videos I've kinda steered away from it. Looks kinda clumsy but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe what your talking about is the bolt stop, it get pulled and rotated (or something like that) to allow the bolt to pass by/release it. The action looks great on paper, and probably is great. Just a little too clunky for me. I'd like to get some hands on though before I stick my foot in my mouth.