adjusting for wind

[ShebasDad]

Seeing as my google-fu sucks and I keep finding awnsers that seem to contradict each other. Looks like I have to ask my first stupid question of the year. The range I shoot at faces into a boxish canyon, their is a high berm @ 300 (end of established range) but some steel out around 650. At the firing line your pretty protected at the top of the berm the wind is normaly dead cross wind and back at the steel normaly 180 from the top of the berm (due to terrain).

Now for the question at witch point should I adjust for... mid way to the target? The reason I ask is some of the post's say adjust for conditions at the barrel. Others at the mid point or highest point of trajectory. Since the sub 100 days are limited here in AZ Im off to the range to try to work this out for myself but welcome any advice Thanks in advance

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Seeing as my google-fu sucks and I keep finding awnsers that seem to contradict each other. Looks like I have to ask my first stupid question of the year. The range I shoot at faces into a boxish canyon, their is a high berm @ 300 (end of established range) but some steel out around 650. At the firing line your pretty protected at the top of the berm the wind is normaly dead cross wind and back at the steel normaly 180 from the top of the berm (due to terrain).

Now for the question at witch point should I adjust for... mid way to the target? The reason I ask is some of the post's say adjust for conditions at the barrel. Others at the mid point or highest point of trajectory. Since the sub 100 days are limited here in AZ Im off to the range to try to work this out for myself but welcome any advice Thanks in advance

I do what was taught to me by folks I see as being the best long range shooters out there today. I attempt to appraise the mid range wind, by what the effects of the wind look like at md range and/or by the appearance of mirage as seen in my spotting scope. Why a mid range reading? I accept the belief of those who taught me how to do it that this yields a better appraisal for the average wind velocity from shooter to target than what an appraisal at the gun or at the target would yield for the average wind from shooter to target. Now, I would simply suggest you try it out. If wind cannot be appraised at mid range, appraise it from where ever it can be appraised, such as at your firing position.

No matter the distance at which you appraised the wind, all agree it is important to appraise its velocity and direction correctly. This can be done by observing the effects of wind, that's to say, what wind looks and feels like. For example, an 8 to 12 MPH wind could be seen as one raising dust and blowing loose paper. Mirage is another way to see wind. Mirage is the reflection of light through layers of air that have a different temperature than the ground. These layers are blown by the wind and can be monitored to detect direction and speed.

After appraising the winds velocity, the wind is valued by its direction. For example a cross wind is a full value wind. A quartering wind has a half value; and, a 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock wind would be appraised as having no value. For example a 10 MPH wind that is blowing from 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock would be regarded as having a 5 MPH value. With speed and direction giving a wind value that value can be placed into a formula to understand the correct sight adjustment to counter for the wind.

One formula for wind counter is: distance to target divided by 100 times valued wind in MPH divided by a constant equals MOA of drift. Let's look at an example for the M855 round which uses a constant of 10. For a shot at 600 yards with wind appraised as having a 5 MPH value the formula would look like this: 600 divided by 100 times 5 divided by 10 equals 3 MOA of drift or 18 inches of favor.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Shoot your rifle, and dope it accordingly. Obviously do your best to make a good wind call, but take note of the envirnments and what your proper corrections were to bring the impact on point. The next time you are in a simular situation you'll have some data to help get you on target quicker.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Keeping a record of shooting in a data book will help in all accounting of it:

To Record Performance
To Build Consistency
To Evaluate Performance
To Keep Track of Progress

As Darkside-Six alluded, if you record the beginning sight setting for what you perceive will get a good hit and then the corrected setting that actually got a good hit, you will get a sense of what to do on future occasions when conditions appear to be similar to those experienced before. There is no substitute for this experience. Having a record of it supports confidence in decision making.

 

[40xs]

Your answer may well lie in your description of the area where you shoot. each range has it's own idios as to what is neccessary. If there is virtually no wind at the muzzle, then you adjust for where there is wind. Typically, on a range where the wind is consistent throughout the entire way, then the old rule of the influence at the muzzle is true since you can't "will" a bullet back on course once it takes a certain path. As Sterling stated, generally, most shooters use the midway point as an average, or adjusting your spotting scope for mirage at the 600yd line when shooting at 1k.

 

[kraigWY]

I'm of the Mid Range crowd, regardless, we need to understand "shit happens" we cant see or adjust for. An example is the 600 yard range at the Oklahoma City Gun Club.

They have a large ditch crossing the range between the 300 and 600 yard lines. The prevailing winds are from 5-7 o'clock, easy to adjust for, but being Oklahoma you often get a cross wind whipping through the ditch that will bite you in the butt.

You'll get the same thing hunting in the mountains where you have small canyons or cuts, you might not ever know are there until you hike out to retrieve you game. The same thing when hunting antelope in the prairies in the high plains. The ground looks flat, you can judge the wind by the grass, but you can't see the grass in dips.

But when I can I use mid range to 2/3s distance to the target.

 

[ShebasDad]

Thanks for the info, while I do have a log book its pretty much just for round count at this point... I better change that and use it as intended. when I went out this weekend I did pay close attention to the mirage at the top of the berm. I was able to walk em into the target with 2 rounds @ 750 yrds. not gona win the Hide cup any time soon but its a start. As soon as $$ allows and space is avalible I need to get my ass into a PR1 type class for now more ammo and trial and error. Thanks for the help Bill

 

[Lowlight]

The reason some advocate wind at the muzzle, is:

1. It's the foundation of all wind calls, everything starts with you the shooter.
a. Its the only location you can dope the wind to better than 1 MPH
b. Its where we are, when people talk about "feel" that is at the shooter. As soon as you step out of your car, "you" are doping it. We use our sight, the sound and our feelings to assign value.

2. Wind is invisible and it's impossible to see what effects terrain might have, you have to let the bullet show you which is generally too late, until the next shot. This is where believe the bullet comes into play.

3. It gives value to your downrange observations, by matching up observed reactions downrange to a real wind value at the shooter you assign a repeatable value to those observations.

4. Most who use "downrange" calls have coaches or a lot of experience, and those coaches are watching the changes for you and relaying the data. You can't watch mid range changes while you are focused on the target. It divides your attention. We can begin a call using mid range but it is quickly replaced as wind is not constant.

All zones have value and their pluses and minus, as your experience grows, so does the distance downrange which you can accurately call the wind. For a new shooter with little to no experience you need to keep detailed accurate notes and those notes are best backed up by actual numbers. As an example, if you say, "that is an 8MPH to 12MPH wind", my question to you would be, "which is it" because a 1MPH wind at 1000 yards moves a 175gr SMK 10" ... if you are 4MPH off in your call that is a miss by 40". Knowing it's 9MPH, or even 10.5MPH would require you to actually dope it at your position. It's that experienced shooter's experience, that makes the difference between you and him, which is probably the result of a whole lot of shooting in the same place. Usually in excess of 50,000 rounds. In order to build that personal database of experience you have to keep notes and shoot. The better the notes, the quicker you'll be up to speed.

Terrain is the second biggest factor to velocity, if everything were equal, the mid range reading would be the best, and yes, Max Ord does have an impact on the velocity of the wind. Reading the wind at the ground level, (where mirage is by the way) does not tell you what it is doing 1, or 2, even more wind gradients above the ground. The bullet does not fly across the ground it goes up. For every 14ft above the ground you go, you add a wind gradient. That gradient has less resistance from ground and thus means an increase in wind velocity. So when shooting a 308 to 1000 yards, you enter another gradient and instead of reading 8MPH you could be exposing the bullet to 10, or 12MPHs at MAX ORD. If I am shooting far enough to add 1 or more wind gradient to the flight of the bullet, I increase my call. If I read the wind on the ground at 8MPH and I am pushing the bullet up at 15ft MAX ORD I dope it for 10MPH or more depending on the registered gusts.

Before starting I take 2 Full Minutes to read the wind changes with a kestrel. I record the Highs, the Average and the lows, then I take those 3 values and assign my hold. So when I see the changes I know what is needed to correct for it. You can dial an average of 1 Mil and know if it drops off I need to take .2 Mils out of wind, or if it speeds up, i need to add .3 for the increase.

Once the bullet is blown off course it stays off course... that is why wind at the shooter has a significant value, the longest time of flight and greatest downrange effect. But again, to repeat you have to consider all of them, many like mid range because as noted, it's a middle ground. I like to dope the wind at me, the shooter with a kestrel, then use my observations through the scope at the target to make minor corrections in my hold, as that is where my final focus is. I am more likely to see the changes as they happen.

Finally, you can dope the wind with 1 shot, at least for a moderate wind, under 10MPH. Hold center, fire, and read the results with reticle. Take the splash and match it up to the reticle. That reticle has value, It's calibrated to your rifle, scope, and bullet. Once you see what that shot does, correcting is as easy holding the splash on target and firing a follow up. You can do this in 3 to 5 seconds.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

You asked what wind to go with when the wind could be anything between 8 to 12 MPH. I bracket. Now, here's why I do not start with the wind at the firing point, so what if I know exactly what it is. This information still does not assure a correct wind appraisal as it may not be anything like the average wind from firing point to target. It only assures a good hit if indeed that's the wind down range too. Is it likely to be like the wind down range, who knows. If it's all there is to know, I'm going with it for sure. But if I can discern mid range I will abandon any notion of what to do from information at the firing point. At any rate, my most successful shooting is when I can simply appraise mirage from the spotting scope at mid range. The spotting scope encompasses mirage from ground to max. ord. It allows for very good bracketing. A correction to zero can be made following the first shot and then I simply hold fire or shoot upon recognition of the mirage remaining constant or changing.

 

[ShebasDad]

Lowlight thanks for that, alot of info and I'll reread it a couple times I'm sure. I do need to keep better notes and use my book correctly. This weekend I was watching the mirage @ appx 300 yrds ( top of the berm ) looked like it was L-R @ 2 oclock ( not quite a 45) witch I put at 4-6 mph I have Strelok for dope gave back a little for the 5-700 yard wind minus a little for the idiot behind the triger and fire for effect... basicaly SWAG walked into the 750 yrd target in 2 rounds

My goals right now are,

1) get more ammo and shoot more
2) save up for a better scope have a nikon 308 now and no way to hold for wind or to range
3) get my dumb ass into a PR1 class ASAP
4) get more ammo and shoot.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[Lowlight]

You are also shooting a 6ft x 6ft target and you have the luxury of sighters, (not to mention spotters in the pits) if you are "close enough" it doesn't matter. You then tune the shots into the center. The target is calibrate in MOA to guide you.

From that point it's more or less a favor.

Saying 8 - 12 is more than good enough, and with a match that starts at short, 200-300 yards, and moves out, you then can also develop a pattern, which will guide you towards your next hold. You don't have to, on command, drop down and hit center on a UKD Target that might be 833 yards which might only be 1.5 MOA wide, if you did, brackets don't work. If you were within 2MPH of the actual value you would still miss.

Competitions and Square Ranges have a different dynamic, it's designed to help the shooter, you have flags, sighters, coaches, others around you who talk out loud giving clues, spotting scopes to focus at mid range, and don't forget sandy berms which always kick up dust that you can read. Hell, I can use Field Firing Solutions on a square range, it has a Utility with a Wind Speed Reader that will time the dust movement across the reticle and insert a wind value to my solutions. If I was in the field I would have to shoot and try and run the computer at the same time, instead on a square range in a competition setting I can wait for the other guy. Not to mention almost everyone on the line is shooting the same thing, you can use a wind dummy (the other guy) and note his hold.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Well, first, EIC competition does not have sighters. What any shooting scenerio has is a strategy, including a process and procedure for any counters required for gravity, drag, wind and weather. Although the process and procedure for a particular scenero may not be as efficient or effective as for another, the principles, elements, and factors of what's important to good shooting are the same. This means getting a good appraisal for what to do about wind is the same whether on range or in the field; and, a good appraisal for either range or field is quite possible from way I first posted. The added value that may be presented on range and not in the field is an extraneous variable, that's to say, you wouldn't want to bet on its value. I don't depend on wind dummies. I do depend on being smarter at wind than others.

 

[Lowlight]

That is true, but your results are motivated in different ways, the situation you and the AMU find on the square range does not translate as well to the open field. Sure, if you have practiced enough it can work, you have a foundation, but what happens when that IS your first shot at a foundation in wind reading... its all just trial and error then. If a method is less than efficient it should be adjusted for a more effective method, "Because we always did that way" or because a competition based organization with a entire support system around it does it a certain way, does not make it the best way. It only makes it a better way for that organization. They have determine in the setting they most find themselves, "this works". Reading the original posters question, it does not appear he is in that situation.

The goal, at the end of the day is to,

1. Dope the wind to within better than 1 MPH
2. Hit the target as close to center as possible

How you accomplish that can be debated, and there are many caveats that go with each method. But for a person on their own, with no support system to fall back on, no firing line of competitors to eavesdrop on, and no foundation to start with, creating a repeatable, effective method is important. We can copy the positions we see in pictures, we can copy the methods we read about online, but without a solid understand of "why" you do it that way, it does not help the shooter and returns them to the trial and error method, which is what we are try to avoid. Many of us began with that method, we took out lots of ammo and shot until we got it right, over years, along the way we picked up tips and tricks to help finesse it. However if a person is asking, they clearly are looking for something more effective than, "buy a case of ammo and shoot".

I advocate a system that reinforces the individual and does not leave any holes that must be figured out. Reading the Wind & Mirage Mid Range has several holes in it. One, you ASSUME they understand Mirage and what each "look" means in terms of wind velocity. You would also assume they realize a quartering wind from any direction still appears as a direct cross wind in mirage. (not counting a head or tail) You would have to assume they have wind indictors downrange AND they have a value assigned to that particular indictor. (Its the AZ Desert, no trees, leaves, or tall grass)

So how do you advocate the individual without the AMU as a support system to carry them further begin their journey ? You can show them a picture of a wavy line and say, "If it looks like this, it could be an 8MPH, but it if looks like THIS ------------> it might be 16". That is asking them to answer a subjective question about what they see. You'd have more luck asking them who is better Rembrandt, or Van Gogh.

Saying, Read the Wind at Mid Range assumes they know what means, or what that looks like, if they knew that already they would not have to ask. The only way to figure it out for yourself is to look at the mirage in a scope, then look at the kestrel and read what it says. From there you can assign that value to what you see. Absent of that, they can look at the mirage Mid Range, then shoot and see what happens, walk the round into the target, and from there say, "My rifle shooting at 600 yards used 3MOA of wind to hit, that means it was an 8MPH Wind so THAT Mirage was showing me 8". Basically what you are asking them to do is reverse engineer the shot because clearly, they have no foundation to understand what that mirage is telling them up front. That takes experience to learn, unless you get a meter and read it, where... get ready for it, At the Shooter.

 

[M40_A1]

Great thread. I can't add much to what has already been said, but have a couple points that may be helpful, though maybe not necessarily where you are shooting now, ShebasDad.

If you are ever on a range with wind flags, the wind gauge at the shooter can be used to determine the "hang" of the flags by comparing the reading to a flag at the firing line. Then, assuming all the flags are the same material, you can use that information to help accurately gauge the wind on flags down range. Always watch the upwind flags, as they will give warning of a change before it gets to your lane of fire. (BTW, a wind coming from a 45-degree angle will be a 3/4 value wind, not 1/2. A 1,5,7 or 11 o'clock wind will give 1/2 value. I use full value for winds from 2,4,8 and 10 o'clock.)

A mirage reading will already compensate for wind angle. Whatever cross wind value you see will be what it is, no need to compensate for angle.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

We can reverse your argument substituting firing point with mid range and mid range for firing point and get the same result. It's like adding 2 plus 1 or 1 plus 2. If you keep this up you might even prove Einstein's theory of relativity. No forget that, neither one of us can chase our tails fast enough.

Although an inexperienced shooter may not "get" a correct appraisal of wind at mid range, not knowing what the "look" means, while easily getting the wind at the firing point from a wind meter, a novice's understanding of what mid range looks like will come about quickly enough from simple assimilation, recording initial zeros and corrected ones in the data book, correlating to the marked notation of how the wind appeared to be blowing at mid range. It's not that hard.

 

[Jaeger308]

Wind is a female can love you and or hate you, she needs to be figured out, caressed, softly talked too, pampered, squeezed and at times manhandled, but in the end, can still be a bitch. (Any females reading this please reverse the analogy into a bastard).


To the OP beleive Lowlight, having watched Frank over the years read wind he has a good handle on it, no one ever masters it...Sterling come on now the AMU gets their wind calls off the steam rising from the Nuclear power plant at Camp Perry everyone know that, and if you're using a sling, no need for wind holds anyway? Right? <O

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Wind is a female can love you and or hate you, she needs to be figured out, caressed, softly talked too, pampered, squeezed and at times manhandled, but in the end, can still be a bitch. (Any females reading this please reverse the analogy into a bastard).


To the OP beleive Lowlight, having watched Frank over the years read wind he has a good handle on it, no one ever masters it...Sterling come on now the AMU gets their wind calls off the steam rising from the Nuclear power plant at Camp Perry everyone know that, and if you're using a sling, no need for wind holds anyway? Right? <O

I did not know that; but, I've gotta tell ya, that's pretty funny. Your humor is inspiring.

 

[Graham]

The answer is: It depends.

Depending on what you are doing with the rifle, it's either wind at the shooter or wind at max ord.

You can get fancy and enter three winds into FFS for ELR, or you can simply revert to the above.

 

[Jaeger308]

I did not know that; but, I've gotta tell ya, that's pretty funny. Your humor is inspiring.

What kind of SAFS Coach are you? All kidding aside watch the steam plume down the shoreline, if you see a major shift there, you will have a major shift on the range about 5 minutes later First Viale then Rodriguez range.

 

[lash]

This has been a great thread for me. Wind calls is the next and biggest challenge for me. I have to teach myself a proper way to log the information though. I'll check out my logbook tonight and figure out what I need to be recording based upon the guidance from this thread.

Thanks for this discussion.

 

[Lowlight]

The problem with telling people to just use, Mirage, or a Flag, or to register the movement of trees, grass etc, is they need to have an understanding of it from the start or it doesn't work. We all know what French is, and what French Sounds like, but just that alone is not enough to ask someone to translate French to English. You need to more than just, "that is French".

The same with the wind, we know what Mirage looks like, we have all seen it, and we have all seen it move. But that doesn't mean everyone can translate it to MPH. Same thing with vegetation, sure they have cheat sheets that say, If the leaves blow it's "this much", but you can move a leaf in more than one way.

Technology is there to help us, so as long as you understand it, that help is easily available.

The best way to use something like a Kestrel is to, Stand on the range, use your senses and say to yourself, The wind, looks, feels, and sounds like 10MPH, then pull out the kestrel and compare your estimation to the actual registered value. Then you can monitor it for a full 2 Minutes and like i said, note the High, (gusts max value) the Average, and the Low, record that information. Then using your datebook, dope card, or Ballistic Program assign a value to each of those wind readings. So the 12MPH Gusts now mean 1.25 Mils of Wind, the 8MPH Average is now .75 Mils of wind and the Lowest record value is .5 Mils of wind. As you observe things around you, the dirt that splashes up, the trees moving, the way it sounds in your ear pro, you can assign a value to that. When it gets loud, that is the High, I need 1.25, when I don't hear it anymore and it looks like it dropped off, use .5... etc.

You can walk out your back door and estimate the wind, then compare it to the Kestrel. Go hiking with a Kestrel, look at your surroundings, estimate the wind, and then test your estimation compared to the Kestrel. It builds your personal database.

The same thing has to happen when shooting, we run a Ballistic computer to get our Dope, we then shoot it in order to test that estimation. From there we fine tune our dope to center up the hit on the target. At that point we either determine the computer is good, (or the drop from a manufacturer provided data) or we have to adjust the numbers to bend the curve to match. With wind, we get our reading, apply the correction, shoot it and see if it works. if it does, we can write it down, or save the track as a favorite as we'll see it again.

Having a plan is key, we can toss rounds until we hit, but we aren't learning anything, having a plan, we can then begin teaching ourselves what is needed to get a hit on target.

 

[Erud]

What kind of SAFS Coach are you? All kidding aside watch the steam plume down the shoreline, if you see a major shift there, you will have a major shift on the range about 5 minutes later First Viale then Rodriguez range.

I have to assume you're joking, right? That cooling tower at the nuclear plant is about 4.5 miles away from the nearest target on Viale. Making wind calls based on that info would be about as reliable as making calls based on the 5 o'clock news weather report.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

No doubt, using mirage to correctly get wind velocity requires experience. This experience can come by correlating the corrected zero to conditions, reappraising the mirage value. If a shooter understood it from the beginning there would be nothing to learn. But since that is not the case the shooter builds upon experience by getting into it. The shooter does not just bypass learning mirage since understanding wind though mirage is a useful skill, some would say it is the preferred method of reading wind.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

This has been a great thread for me. Wind calls is the next and biggest challenge for me. I have to teach myself a proper way to log the information though. I'll check out my logbook tonight and figure out what I need to be recording based upon the guidance from this thread.

Thanks for this discussion.

You might want to try this: Record your starting zero in the data book. This is the sight setting you believe, with what ever resources you have to determine proper sight adjustment for gravity, drag, wind and weather, is correct for point of aim and point of impact to intersect. Then record the sight setting that was necessary to correct for shot misplacement. This corrected zero can then be correlated with conditions as you had sensed them, thus, helping you to appraise the sight adjustment necessary to hit the target when similar conditions reappear. You must call your shots honestly to learn from this method. Shots called right in there and not striking right in there indicate the need to make a sight adjustment.

 

[damoncali]

A lot depends on the range. Our range has a pretty well protected firing line, so wind at the muzzle is very hard to judge unless it's a head/tail wind. It can feel quite a bit different at the firing line vs 20 yards down range. The range also has several berms, a hill on one side, trees on the other, and is sort of dug into the ground, going deeper as you go down range.

In other words, it's tough to just look at it and know where the wind is. When they have flags out, it's more common for them to be pointing different directions than the same direction. They're too high, too low, or past the targets anyhow, so they're tough to make sense of. You can pick one in the middle and go with that, but you'll occasionally whiff by quite a bit - the flag just doesn't pick up the conditions well enough.

If I can get a good look at the mirage, it's by far the most consistent thing to go with. There are enough features on the range to get a reasonable gage of it's speed just by looking at it if you have good scope, although I always keep a wind meter on hand to help calibrate my eye/feel. (You don't need a kestrel for this - there are some cheaper options at a fraction of the price. I take it out before each match and wander around with it just to get a feel for the speed in mph and the prevailing direction/trends. Years ago, I went to a clinic that the Marine rifle team put on at Quantico and they recommended dropping a few blades of grass and watching the angle at which it fell to gage speed (in a light wind). I never could do that with any consistency, but I guess it worked for them.

So, at this range at least, I focus my spotter about half way, read the mirage and judge it's speed from there. It takes a little practice, but I've not found a better way when faced with a boxed in range like ours is. Other ranges have other issues. There's a certain amount of trial and error to get a feel for it.

 

[lash]

Thanks for the additional tip Sterling Shooter!