Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

[Steel_11A]

All:

I'd appreciate some advice regarding what I hope is a rare upgrade in a tactical long-range .308. I'm kind of a FNG at this - my experience is in ARs and open sights with very little experience and no formal training in long-range scoped rifles but I've got a lot of interest in it and plan to get trained. I've got a fairly basic tactical bolt action now.

My objectives are 1) accuracy to 1000 yards (or as long as I can get), 2) a gun that's comfortable to use in the tactical med to long-range classes, 3) long-term reliability.

I'm about sold on the Sako TRG-22 but have a couple concerns and wonder if I should think about a GA Precision or the Les Baer Tactical instead. The Sako does fit me very well and I like the trigger, as well. I'm thinking of the GAP or Baer because of build quality and accuracy with a tick up in cost from the TRG.

First and most important, barrel length as it pertains to accuracy. Seems to me that 20" is potentially too short for long range and the 26" may be too long. Is there anything to the theory that a barrel should be long enough to establish proper trajectory and burn the powder and anything longer just provides opportunity for unwanted vibration? From what I've read, 22-24" seems optimal which is what the other makers use. I realize, of course, that the smiths at Sako did their homework, so maybe there's a good reason for the 26". If I go with the Sako, should I opt for the 26" over the 20"? Or is this question answered with the 'last 100 yards' answer?

Second is general reliability. I know the Sako has a great reputation. How would it compare to the custom builds? How about the Sako magazine vs. the others used elsewhere?

Last, I've read that the TRG is not picky regarding ammo. Does this mean that it's not responsive to better loads or is that a stupid question? I'm likely to start handloading in the future.

I realize that there's a lot of other legitimate competition, but my logic in focusing on GAP and LB is this:
Kimber 8400 - similar to the GAP Hospitaller but I would imagine the build quality is significantly better with the GAP.
McMillans, TacOps and AE AW are out of the question - too pricey.
AI AE Mk II seems to be comparable to the TRG - may be better, but not that much better than the TRG as the GAP may be.

I've cross-posted this on a couple sites - hope that's not politically incorrect. Thanks much and my next question will be about optics once I narrow down to a few.

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

GAP rifles have a good reputation and come with a 1/2 moa guarantee (I believe). Hard to beat that. McMillan stocks are really great and the Surgeon action is super. Make sure you get the throat length to match the round you want to use etc talk to GAP about this issue. The AICS mags only holds rounds up to 2.88" OAL I believe. If you get the AW mag it holds longer rounds up to like 2.95" and that can be better in some circumstances. There is an issue on the actions feeding those longer rounds too. The Surgeon action is 90 degree throw. Not sure about the other actions GAP uses. They have a Templar action also. Probably a 90 degree also. I tend to like 60 degree throw, its a shorter, quicker throw but they are rare (Sako uses 60 degree). Not that that is a a deal buster. Id love a GAP rifle! The Mcmillan stocks are great.

I have a Sako TRG 20" in 308. It shoots average of 3/4" and some of that is my movement. Pretty good. It would pass the 1/2 moa guarantee (shoot 10 groups and it WILL shoot a 1/2moa one). A better shooter than I might be able to average 1/2 groups, not really sure about that. I hand load and I have hit steel at 1100 yards so it gets enough velocity for me. No, it is not picky on ammo, shoots most ammo fine (but shoots handloads better than factory). I prefer it's handling and weight to my Rem 700 with a 24" barrel (and AICS stock). I also like the 60 degree bolt throw. The Sako has metric threading so if you buy a brake or supressor you have to deal with that (if it comes prethreaded). Mine came with a zero degree picatinny rail which I replaced with a 20 moa one. The Sako magazine holds rounds out to 2.95" long, that is longer than the AICS mags commonly used in other guns and those rounds will feed in the Sako action and will work if you want to load touching the lands with the 155 grain Lapua Scenars. So Sako got all that RIGHT. Sako barrels aren't long throated like Remingtons. The Sako trigger is pretty good, it has "takeup" actually I think they call it a two stage. Anyway it is really good out of the box, I havent had to adjust it at all. Sako has a really good manual for the gun and doesnt do dumb info like tell you that adjusting the trigger voids the warranty or a bunch of safety rules that clutter up most manuals that come with guns. They also give you a tool to take the gun apart with. The Sako is pretty light for a tactical rifle, lighter than the Mcmillan stocked ones are going to be I am pretty sure. Although the Sako has an adjustable cheek piece, you have to buy some expensive parts to adjust it (what a rip), a shim and a screw, so pick low rings so you don't have to do that because if you do raise the cheekpiece you wont be able to get the bolt out without taking the cheekpiece off, kind of a kludge compared to most arrangements. The stock has kind of a rough prickly, dry feel, more of a hard hollow feel. The Mcmillans feel a little more solid (they have a "cold and smooth" feel, almost like plexiglass) to me but I like the Sako stock (didnt at first though). All in all the Sako is great, better than my Rem 700 on an AICS stock (and it is a pretty good gun also). I got so excited about Sako's I ordered one in 260 Remington. I hope it's sub moa also. That outa be way cool.

You can't go wrong with either.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

This is really dependent on what YOU feel better behind and what YOU feel more likely to enjoy. With the GAP, it'll be custom and one of a kind to some degree. With the SAKO, it's a factory proven gun with a very good reputation as well. At the end of the day it will be a personal preference more than anything. They both have a lot of positives with no real negatives. I know this doesn't answer your question much. If it were me, I'd be torn as much as you, but a custom barrel you get with the GAP would probably net your better accuracy. As far as barrel length, I'd opt for 24" or more. You can get to 1000yd with a 20" tube but the extra velocity from the longer tube will help a lot.

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I was in the same situation in 2009, and bought a new TRG-22. I worked with handloads for 4 months, but never really got it to shoot better than 3/4" MOA with any bullets (including 155 Scenars). I finally gave up and sold the TRG.

I have been able to put together R700's that group 1/2 MOA...at one third the cost. Most are barreled actions that get a new stock (w/bedding block), skim bedded, lapped lugs, and trigger work. This is with factory Remington 26" bbl.

A custom GAP would easily stay under 1/2 MOA, and probably close to 1/4". It all depends on what your expectations are in regard to accuracy, and how the rifles fit you!

 

[Snipers]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

At this level of design and craftsmanship, it's really about which one fits you better, provides you with more personal satisfaction, and possibably - provides you a better value. Although "value" is largely an individual thing too. You cannot go wrong with any of the models that have been indicated. If you do, then you have been very unlucky!

A TRG 22 is generally a .5 MOA or better rifle. The custom guns that you have indicated are not necessarily more accurate.

The cost can be as follows:
Rifle $2500
20-30 MOA base (various manufacturers) $125 - $450
Rings $50-$125 (if not included with base)
Harris Bi-pod adapter $10
Sling with attachments $40-$100
Spare magazines $175
Muzzle break $169
Transfer fee ?

A basic TRG 22 with base can be had for $2700 approximate. Decide on what you need, do some analysis, grow some "balls", and make a decision

 

[XL Mammal]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decide on what you need, do some analysis, grow some "balls", and make a decision </div></div> Love it!

Bayou, I'm not discounting anyone else's experience with the TRG, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to get one that won't hold .5 MOA. I'll say this, with my TRG I know the round will go exactly where the crosshairs are when the thing goes bang. All you need are sound fundamentals and perfect execution. Piece of cake, right?

Regarding the barrel length, if you plan on hunting with it, adding a suppressor, shooting from varying positions, etc, I'd go with the 20". If not get the 26". You'll never notice the barrel length shooting from the bench or the prone. But keep in mind, the real challenge at long range is the wind. Dialing elevation is just as easy with a 20" barrel as a 26"...you'll just need a little more with the 20".

 

[jbell]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

It sounds like you have tried a TRG already and it fits you good. I have had or have shot about every configuration of rifle you have listed. I love them all , but I have settled on the TRG and am completely happy with it. I have had Remington based rifles from APA and GAP and have to say they are worth every penny. Both companys are the benchmark for others to follow (I personaly recomend APA) but there are also some equally tallented smiths that are on this site , so any you choose will do you right. Back to the rifle choice , my TRG is everybit as accurate as any rifle I have owned. I would say that accuracy is not realy a deciding factor in this choice b/c they will all perform. I think the TRG action is a step above the Remington or Remington based action. The TRG trigger is second to none and was the primary reason for me tring one in the first place , the only trigger that I would put in the same category as the TRG is the Anschutz trigger. The garand style safety is also very nice. The stocks are more adjustable to the shooter than any on the market. I live in Maine and was shooting today and with temps around 0f the TRG is a breeze to shoot with winter gear on. So as you can tell from my ramblings I would highly recomend the TRG! If you are just using this as a target rifle then I would recomend the 26" rifle and also recomend Richard Near for all your optic mounting and muzzle break.

 

[Vin]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I have a TRG22 with a 20" barrel,Near 20moa base and Near Brake. As mentioned, Richard Near's stuff is top notch. I also have a AI AE MKII and a custom Remington with a Rock Creek barrel. The TRG and the AI shoot as good or better than the custom. I am usually the weak link. The two stage trigger on both the TRG and AI are sweet but I would give the TRG and slight notch. With regards to the TRG and the AI, they are built from the ground up as a sniper rifle, not a hunting rifle modified to be a sniper rifle. If a rifle needs to be customized or modified,why is that, maybe it wasn't up to snuff in the first place. Some may disagree on that statement but my custom rifle has failed in extreme conditions where the TRG and AI did not. I live in northen Canada and used my rifles, work guns included in pretty shitty weather. The custom failed but the TRG or AI has yet not to work when required. Just my opinion but based on personal experience.

 

[SScott]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like you have tried a TRG already and it fits you good. I have had or have shot about every configuration of rifle you have listed. I love them all , but I have settled on the TRG and am completely happy with it. I have had Remington based rifles from APA and GAP and have to say they are worth every penny. Both companys are the benchmark for others to follow (I personaly recomend APA) but there are also some equally tallented smiths that are on this site , so any you choose will do you right. Back to the rifle choice , my TRG is everybit as accurate as any rifle I have owned. I would say that accuracy is not realy a deciding factor in this choice b/c they will all perform. I think the TRG action is a step above the Remington or Remington based action. The TRG trigger is second to none and was the primary reason for me tring one in the first place , the only trigger that I would put in the same category as the TRG is the Anschutz trigger. The garand style safety is also very nice. The stocks are more adjustable to the shooter than any on the market. I live in Maine and was shooting today and with temps around 0f the TRG is a breeze to shoot with winter gear on. So as you can tell from my ramblings I would highly recomend the TRG! If you are just using this as a target rifle then I would recomend the 26" rifle and also recomend Richard Near for all your optic mounting and muzzle break. </div></div>

+1
I have had my TRG22 for a day over a week, and shot my first competition with it yesterday. I made the decision to shoot it over my custom after only having it for a week when it was revealed in the course layout that we had to shoot from the standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone positions, and my custom rifle was 3 lbs heavier. In the middle of the week I had the rifle to the range twice and produced my first bug hole groups ever with a factory rifle.
Now, if you are going to shoot in comps, your real question might be the caliber choice, as the .308 has a slight disadvantage to other calibers.
The trigger on the Sako is better than my 2 other custom rem triggers, Huber, and Jewell. Keep that in mind as well as that the action is not a Rem 700 clone.
My goal is to shoot the barrel out of this thing and maybe look at a 6.5 mm replacement. I have ZERO regret on spending my money on this rifle.
Good luck on your decision
SScott

 

[rkgsmith]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

We have 8 TRGs and all are shooters. We cut the barrels to 22" to make balance better with the brake. Right out of the box they are GTG.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

Here is a great thread.. it isn't about the TRG series specifically but about quality factory purpose built guns vs customs.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1826042&page=1

 

[fish30114]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

First off, I am a huge SAKO fan, especially the TRG. I love mine, and as many stated, accuracy is not a factor that cam decide you against a TRG.

The one statement so far that I strongly disagree with though is: '<span style="color: #FF6666">The stocks are more adjustable to the shooter than any on the market.</span>'
The stock is adjustable, on the folder moreso than the fixed stock version. The fixed stock version requires you buy spacers, so it either fits you or doesn't by the size of the smallest spacer (I think 5mm) The SAKO folks would make a quantum leap forward if they simply put a thumbwheel adjustable butt stock and cheekpiece on these rifles.

A custom with something like one of the adjustable McMilland stocks would be far more adjustable....

Having said that, mine fits close enough with some tweaking of scope mounts etc., and the shootability is second to none of my other rigs. SAKO acccessories are good stuff, but darn pricey--just a fact.

A good buddy of mine put it well one time at the range referring to my TRG. 'Damn it boy, if I'd of just bought one of those when you did, and spent the time I had waiting and developing a load for my custom, I would be big $ ahead, and have gotten in a lot more practice!'

I'd go the TRG in a minute, and buy their brake, and probably one of their scope mounts if I had to do it again. I dislike their rail, it puts the scope way up in the air, and I hate putting a rail on a rail, which is what I did recently, I put a Near rail on it, which is great kit, and even though I didn't want it, they sent me their 'Alpha Mount' which is good kit, but if had wanted that, I would have just gone with the factory 3 ring mount, which you can get for around $3-350.

Like others have said, if I could get the TRG trigger on them, I would have it on every rifle I own!

Good Luck

 

[jamessparrow]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I have custom 3500 308 bolt rifle, Accuracy INtl , Sako TRG 22. Chronologically purchased in that order, all shoot 1/2 or better with match ammo only, for me. All will reach 1k and make one happy. However, my favorite is the Sako TRG due to lighter weight and superb trigger. Before the Sako I thought other triggers were the nuts, now the Sako rules. However, still keeping the other rifles, but for me, the Sako is more effecient IMO.

 

[jbell]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fish301</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The one statement so far that I strongly disagree with though is: '<span style="color: #FF6666">The stocks are more adjustable to the shooter than any on the market.</span>'
</div></div>
Maybe I should of said has more adjustments designed into the stock to fit the shooter. You do have to buy spacers , but to get the same adjustments on any other stock you will have to pay for it as a option. The TRG has a cheek peice that can adj. vertical and horzontal. It also has a but that can adjust vertical and cant and length of pull , but I dont think it can turn on the centerline of the rifle in a rotating fasion. Just dont want to misslead any one.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

Easy choice

TRG22. ground up, full on, milspec sniper rifle

GAP/all r700 customs. Tricked up hunting rifles.

Make your choice

 

[samnev]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

There are several TRG 22 shooters at my gun club including mine and every one shoots 0.5 min (or less) 5 shoot groups at 100 yards. Some use Varget I use 4895. Some are shooting 168gr SMK's some 177 SMK's.

 

[cooper623]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

about the gun being seemingly unpicky regarding ammo. this does not mean that it will not benefit from higher quality loads. High quality as it applies to ammunition simply means that every bullet is as close to absolutely perfect as possible. When every round is the same it creates consistancy. If you can get a consistent group, then all you have to do is move your POA and then ur hitting the bull everytime (in theory at least ). What they most likely mean by "unpicky" is that the rifle will respond well to several high quality loads rather than strongly prefering one load as some rifles do. In reality there is no substitute for handloading, however blackhills and FGMM come close.

 

[cooper623]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

however the TRG 22 is a great rifle and a good choice seeing as it deffinitely will meet all of your goals that you described above.

 

[cooper623]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Easy choice

TRG22. ground up, full on, milspec sniper rifle

GAP/all r700 customs. Tricked up hunting rifles.

Make your choice</div></div>

I'd be careful....These "tricked up hunting rifles" are a version of what our military is currently using to kick major ass overseas. The Remington 700 platform is a very adequate alternative to a TRG 22 in terms of performance and reliability (and really what else is there) assuming you treat it right and put the money that you saved by buying a remington 700 vs a sako TRG 22 into the right places.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cooper623</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Easy choice

TRG22. ground up, full on, milspec sniper rifle

GAP/all r700 customs. Tricked up hunting rifles.

Make your choice</div></div>

I'd be careful....These "tricked up hunting rifles" are a version of what our military is currently using to kick major ass overseas. The Remington 700 platform is a very adequate alternative to a TRG 22 in terms of performance and reliability (and really what else is there) assuming you treat it right and put the money that you saved by buying a remington 700 vs a sako TRG 22 into the right places. </div></div>

Yep I know the R700 has did its share but its no TRG or AI. I have went the tuned r700 path and while it was a nice gun it was not up the standard of the subsequent AI or TRg's I have owned.

 

[BBsteel]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cooper623</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Remington 700 platform is a very adequate alternative to a TRG 22 in terms of performance and reliability (and really what else is there) assuming you treat it right and put the money that you saved by buying a remington 700 vs a sako TRG 22 into the right places. </div></div>

When I spec out a custom 700 build it doesn't really come in lower than the $2500 I need for a TRG. And this is just rifle to rifle comparison (no rails, optics, brakes, etc...). h

 

[deergrizzly]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I did the same thing you are doing comparing trg 22 to custom guns for a few months.I have a sako 75 hunting rifle and love it.
I wanted a long range gun and I wanted something a little different so I chose a tc warlord.
Manners adjustable Stock,badger bottom,aluminium bedding rail
22 inch barrel,adjustable trigger.( They give you a wrench you take the bolt out and it is right there.)20 MOA Picatinny rail
5R rifling in barrel
I have had it for a few weeks and have shot it just to sight it in. The accuracy of the gun is better than any I have every owned
before. It will tare a ragged hole at a 100 yards. I really want a few warmer days to get out and shoot again. Good luck choosing

 

[Gregch44]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I am a new long range shooter to be. I recently got a Hospitaller in .308 from GAP. What a tack driver. I easily drive tacks at 100 yards. This rifle makes me look good. I haven't had it out past 200 yards yet, and am using 168 FFGM. A good shooter fired my rifle last weekend, never even saw it before, and fired off 3 rounds at 200 yards. The group was under 1/2", and maybe closer to 3/8". GAP builds one hell of a rifle.

 

[Dionis]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBore56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in the same situation in 2009, and bought a new TRG-22. I worked with handloads for 4 months, but never really got it to shoot better than 3/4" MOA with any bullets (including 155 Scenars). I finally gave up and sold the TRG.

I have been able to put together R700's that group 1/2 MOA...at one third the cost. Most are barreled actions that get a new stock (w/bedding block), skim bedded, lapped lugs, and trigger work. This is with factory Remington 26" bbl.
A custom GAP would easily stay under 1/2 MOA, and probably close to 1/4". It all depends on what your expectations are in regard to accuracy, and how the rifles fit you! </div></div>
Have you tried to shoot factory ammo in your trg?

 

[beenjammin]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I have had 3 TRGs and all shot equally well .5 moa or better.

I have to agree on the trigger being what really stands out about it. It is by far the best trigger I have felt in a rifle and I wish I could put it in my other rifles.

You cant go wrong with a GAP or TRG, but there is no way for any of us to say which is better for you. You really just have to go with the one that you want. All I can say is get the one you heart desires becuase if you dont you will always feel unsatisfied and second guess your purchase.

But on the other side, if you buy one and decide you dont like it, you can sell it right here on the hide as both are highly desireable and maintain their value.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

There is a ton of info on this forum. Use the search function in my sig...this applies to both the OP and some of the people who responded.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I too, recently, bought a Sako TRG 22. I am a newbie for the most part and have only gotten to dry fire the rifle so far; yet I have to say the trigger is fantastic! It is incredibly smooth right out of the box and still has room to be adjusted down from there.

 

[johndoe]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

I am biased towards the Trg's and The AI's just for the fact they are a
proven entity day in and day out throughout the world.

 

[micah379]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

FBI hrt trust's gap enough to let them build their rifles,that's definitely saying something.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Advice on .308 - Sako TRG v. Custom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johndoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am biased towards the Trg's and The AI's just for the fact they are a
proven entity day in and day out throughout the world. </div></div>

And the m40s and m24s aren't?