Advice on Where to Start

[AnotherSandman]

Hello all,

I've decided to accelerate my plans to get into long range shooting in light of the possibility of a new AWB, but I'm not sure what to go with. The big 3 I've read about are FN, KAC, and LMT. I've read up a bit on this site and some other places as well and the impression I've gotten is:

SCAR 20s: decent bang for buck, nice trigger, more accurate than the other two options, and reliable. However, I've also read that the muzzle device is a pain to remove, shooting suppressed voids the warranty, I'm not as worried about optics but it's still a consideration, and that it can shoot screws loose/feels that it bends in shooting.

SR25 build (probably PR): more reliable system, easier to work with in terms of optics and suppressors, and possibly easier to get aftermarket support. However, easily the most expensive of the 3.

LMT MWS: summed up as 80% as good as either option but at 60% the cost.

Is this an accurate assessment?

My dilemma is do I buy something basically good enough that's more in line with my current abilities, and maybe buy something nicer down the line if/when I become a better shot; or do I splurge on something that will easily outshoot me in the hopes I eventually catch up to it?

On another note, can anyone speak to the quality of Vero Beach SR25's? I've heard they don't have much compatibility with new SR25's, and I imagine quality of manufacturing has improved considerably since then so lower end companies have caught up to that level.

Any and all advice appreciated.

 

[aslrookie]

Semi autos are less forgiving in terms of shooting them accurately when compared to bolt guns. The biggest gripe from most about the LMT is the weight when compared to the SR25.

The 20S just seems kinda chunky to me. The SR25 is more streamlined and could be more easily carried around if needed.

You have to decide your intentions with it. If you just want a cool rifle that might be banned, then get whatever you think is most cool.

 

[slothlacrosse]

This, This, This, and This

 

[CBDR]

Semi autos are less forgiving in terms of shooting them accurately when compared to bolt guns. The strength in aslrookie post is SO TRUE.

 

[AnotherSandman]

Semi autos are less forgiving in terms of shooting them accurately when compared to bolt guns. The biggest gripe from most about the LMT is the weight when compared to the SR25.

The 20S just seems kinda chunky to me. The SR25 is more streamlined and could be more easily carried around if needed.

You have to decide your intentions with it. If you just want a cool rifle that might be banned, then get whatever you think is most cool.

Other than weight, are LMT's approximately on par with sr25's? Also, any insight to SR25's from the 90's? That's one area I've had difficulty researching

 

[AnotherSandman]

This, This, This, and This

I've seen 3/4 of those so thank you for the 4th. It was actually one guy in the first thread that clued me in to the possibility of screws backing out. I haven't seen someone else mention that though

 

[AnotherSandman]

Semi autos are less forgiving in terms of shooting them accurately when compared to bolt guns. The strength in aslrookie post is SO TRUE.

I agree, though for this purchase I am pretty set on something semi

 

[aslrookie]

Other than weight, are LMT's approximately on par with sr25's? Also, any insight to SR25's from the 90's? That's one area I've had difficulty researching

The information you are looking for is in a youtube video. Search LMT MWS vs SR25 and watch small arm’s solutions videos. He goes into great details between the two and what he recommends.

 

[Jsp556]

If you can afford it, buy what you want the first time. I went the LMT route and price had nothing to do with it.

 

[AnotherSandman]

Thanks, I was actually just watching that haha. I'm leaning LMT myself now because it does seem to have the pluses for the SR25 while being significantly cheaper and the added bonus of swapping out barrels pretty easily. I'd plan on getting a 308, but also like the option of switching to 6.5 down the road if that gains a lot more traction following developments with the military.

 

[hlee]

If you can afford it, buy what you want the first time.

This, especially if you think an AWB is going to curtail future purchases.

 

[hypno02]

I've owned a scar 17 and although I've heard the 20s is a whole different animal I will mention that [at the time] there was no aftermarket support from FN when it comes to the "modularity" of the platform.

KAC="Hmm I think I want to shoot 6.5" Ok that'll be 3k for an upper+forend that’s less rigid and robust than the LMT.

LMT- Want to shoot a grizzly next week? .338fed barrel for $400–bam. (Retarded caliber let’s be honest here)

Want to shoot a NRL comp the week after? Bam 6.5 creed barrel for $500.

 

[AnotherSandman]

Thanks for the advice guys, I've been seeing some pretty solid points for LMT. Any idea why they aren't more money? Maybe I'm just jaded but I'm used to companies trying to overcharge

 

[Fig]

Define “Long Range Shooting”.

 

[cruiserweight]

Picked a hell of a time to get into any sort of firearms related hobby. Better decide on a caliber and start buying ammo yesterday because it’s flying off the shelves.

 

[AnotherSandman]

Define “Long Range Shooting”.

About 800m

Picked a hell of a time to get into any sort of firearms related hobby. Better decide on a caliber and start buying ammo yesterday because it’s flying off the shelves.

Amen to that, though thankfully I'm not new to shooting as a whole and as related to this topic I have a bit of 308 stocked up. Admittedly not as much as I'd like though so I'll be expanding that anyway.

 

[brianf]

Define “Long Range Shooting”.

exactly what he said

long range to some is like a shotgun pattern around a piece of steel at 800 yards

long range to others is 1500 yards

If your really into long range buy a bolt gun

if your really worried about a AWB or having to turn it in buy a cheap AR to have fun with

 

[brianf]

Just saw your post above lol

 

[TheHorta]

PSA AR-10.

/thread

 

[AnotherSandman]

You're good Lol. To clarify: right now my idea of long range is being able to consistently hit 800ish meters. I'm also not worried about confiscation, but I am worried of imports being stopped or the restriction of sales for firearms with certain features. That's led me to focus on developing a DMR as opposed to getting a nice bolt action like an AI or Sako.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Hello all,

I've decided to accelerate my plans to get into long range shooting in light of the possibility of a new AWB, but I'm not sure what to go with. The big 3 I've read about are FN, KAC, and LMT. I've read up a bit on this site and some other places as well and the impression I've gotten is:

SCAR 20s: decent bang for buck, nice trigger, more accurate than the other two options, and reliable. However, I've also read that the muzzle device is a pain to remove, shooting suppressed voids the warranty, I'm not as worried about optics but it's still a consideration, and that it can shoot screws loose/feels that it bends in shooting.

SR25 build (probably PR): more reliable system, easier to work with in terms of optics and suppressors, and possibly easier to get aftermarket support. However, easily the most expensive of the 3.

LMT MWS: summed up as 80% as good as either option but at 60% the cost.

Is this an accurate assessment?

My dilemma is do I buy something basically good enough that's more in line with my current abilities, and maybe buy something nicer down the line if/when I become a better shot; or do I splurge on something that will easily outshoot me in the hopes I eventually catch up to it?

On another note, can anyone speak to the quality of Vero Beach SR25's? I've heard they don't have much compatibility with new SR25's, and I imagine quality of manufacturing has improved considerably since then so lower end companies have caught up to that level.

Any and all advice appreciated.

80% as good? LMT and KAC, by all reports, are more accurate than the SCAR and we've seen both the LMT and KAC sit right on top of one another in accuracy reviews. I wouldn't even consider the FN and go with one of the other two.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Thanks for the advice guys, I've been seeing some pretty solid points for LMT. Any idea why they aren't more money? Maybe I'm just jaded but I'm used to companies trying to overcharge

price does not define quality and it's an odd psychological view the mind takes. In fact, a psychologist won the nobel price in econ for showing exactly this; give someone something cheap and tell it's expensive and the inherit value explodes, give them something expensive and tell them it's cheap and they treat and think of it as such.

price is dependent upon many factors, quality is only a small portion of it in most instances

 

[RUTGERS95]

You're good Lol. To clarify: right now my idea of long range is being able to consistently hit 800ish meters. I'm also not worried about confiscation, but I am worried of imports being stopped or the restriction of sales for firearms with certain features. That's led me to focus on developing a DMR as opposed to getting a nice bolt action like an AI or Sako.

800 yards and the world is your oyster..lol

 

[AnotherSandman]

Thanks for the feedback, RUTGERS95. I've continued to read up and am sold on the LMT, but that is an interesting psychological phenomena. For me personally, I explain part of it as something that's cheap is easily replaceable, therefore I can afford to get a little more rough with it (though I loathe outright abusing anything I own. Can't even write in the margins of books haha) and vise versa for something that's expensive. When it comes to higher end firearm companies such as FN and HK I'm also used to seeing price reflect the pedigree. What's the functional difference between an HK SP5k as compared to a Zenith Z5k? I have no idea, but probably not an extra $1500. I also think the economics comes into play where a company might ask itself "If my product is almost if not as good as theirs, and they're selling their product for X, why should I settle on selling my product for half of that? Clearly people are willing to pay more, therefore I'll charge more"

 

[JS8588]

Since no one else said it, you know what would fulfill OPs needs nicely?

A Barrett REC10.

 

[LRRPF52]

If all you want to do is shoot out to 800yds, don’t even mess with a large frame.

AR-15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC will do that handily.

Whoever told you the SCAR 20 is more accurate than an SR-25 or LMT MWS is smoking crack.

I’ve seen SR-25s come through my courses that shoot 5rd groups at 1000yds that I won’t even quantify because people will call BS, and 1 example was after having the barrel dimpled for weight reduction with an after-market vendor. The 20” KAC ECR is a hammer, suppresses more easily, and is great with 175gr and 178gr.

I’ve also had SCAR-H/SCAR-17S rifles come through my courses. The Geissele trigger is a must with them and will tighten them up, but they won’t even hold a pattern after 800yds at 6600ft elevation (which helps retain stability) because of the 1/12 twist. Why someone would spin a modern 7.62 NATO DMR in 1/12 twist is beyond me, but the 1950s-1980s calls for its twist rate back. I’ve seen conflicting info on the twist rate on the SCAR-20, but FN’s site says 1/10, which is what you want for shooting 175gr and higher at distance.

The reason the SCAR warranty is void with a suppressor other than the ones they bless-off on is because of how short the gas system is to meet the 13” barrel CQB requirement and therefore how the handguard was set up for SOCOM. Why they use that same gas system and plug dwell length on the SCAR 20 might be driven by component commonality with the bolt carrier/piston, not optimum dwell time and gas port location. It’s basically a 20” gun with a carbine-length gas system. It’s already excessively-gassed, so they fill the carrier with tungsten powder as a rate reducer and plus-up the spring.

The LMT is a pig in terms of weight, unless you have the barrel re-profiled or spun-up for you by one of the smiths who specializes in MWS/MRP barrels.

If you like LMT, you could get an MRP small frame and have a Grendel or 6mm ARC barrel/bolt combo done. You’ll enjoy that far more than shooting the .308 or 6.5CM, especially for 800yd work.

All of the large frame AR-10-ish rifles are very hard on optics, more so than a magnum bolt gun, because of the beating that the bolt carriers dish out when they return to battery. They are massive, and are driven by much stronger action springs that slam the BCG home hard. Most optics simply can’t take this kind of abuse, and internals get trashed.

NightForce is the gold standard in taking this kind of beating, followed by Vortex HD Razor line, Vortex Viper PST Gen 2, and Leupold Mk.5 and Mk.6.

 

[AnotherSandman]

If all you want to do is shoot out to 800yds, don’t even mess with a large frame.

AR-15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC will do that handily.

Whoever told you the SCAR 20 is more accurate than an SR-25 or LMT MWS is smoking crack.

I’ve seen SR-25s come through my courses that shoot 5rd groups at 1000yds that I won’t even quantify because people will call BS, and 1 example was after having the barrel dimpled for weight reduction with an after-market vendor. The 20” KAC ECR is a hammer, suppresses more easily, and is great with 175gr and 178gr.

I’ve also had SCAR-H/SCAR-17S rifles come through my courses. The Geissele trigger is a must with them and will tighten them up, but they won’t even hold a pattern after 800yds at 6600ft elevation (which helps retain stability) because of the 1/12 twist. Why someone would spin a modern 7.62 NATO DMR in 1/12 twist is beyond me, but the 1950s-1980s calls for its twist rate back. I’ve seen conflicting info on the twist rate on the SCAR-20, but FN’s site says 1/10, which is what you want for shooting 175gr and higher at distance.

The reason the SCAR warranty is void with a suppressor other than the ones they bless-off on is because of how short the gas system is to meet the 13” barrel CQB requirement and therefore how the handguard was set up for SOCOM. Why they use that same gas system and plug dwell length on the SCAR 20 might be driven by component commonality with the bolt carrier/piston, not optimum dwell time and gas port location. It’s basically a 20” gun with a carbine-length gas system. It’s already excessively-gassed, so they fill the carrier with tungsten powder as a rate reducer and plus-up the spring.

The LMT is a pig in terms of weight, unless you have the barrel re-profiled or spun-up for you by one of the smiths who specializes in MWS/MRP barrels.

If you like LMT, you could get an MRP small frame and have a Grendel or 6mm ARC barrel/bolt combo done. You’ll enjoy that far more than shooting the .308 or 6.5CM, especially for 800yd work.

All of the large frame AR-10-ish rifles are very hard on optics, more so than a magnum bolt gun, because of the beating that the bolt carriers dish out when they return to battery. They are massive, and are driven by much stronger action springs that slam the BCG home hard. Most optics simply can’t take this kind of abuse, and internals get trashed.

NightForce is the gold standard in taking this kind of beating, followed by Vortex HD Razor line, Vortex Viper PST Gen 2, and Leupold Mk.5 and Mk.6.

Thank you for your thorough input; very informative. What are your thoughts on 6.5CM in terms of how widely it will be adopted and what effect this will have on domestic availability? I've prioritized 308 because it's what I have (which matters more than usual with ammo availability now) and I understand it to be a fairly effective round; however, I've also read that 6.5CM is likely to be the dominant round in the future.

As far as the BCG, I had heard about that for the SCAR but had not heard it was a broader issue with DMR's in general. I was planning on finding a Night Force scope anyway though at least. On that topic, would you be able to recommend an objective lens size? I was thinking a NF NXS 3.5-15x50 due to price and features , but after thinking about it that seems fairly oversized for the rifle.

 

[LRRPF52]

Thank you for your thorough input; very informative. What are your thoughts on 6.5CM in terms of how widely it will be adopted and what effect this will have on domestic availability? I've prioritized 308 because it's what I have (which matters more than usual with ammo availability now) and I understand it to be a fairly effective round; however, I've also read that 6.5CM is likely to be the dominant round in the future.

As far as the BCG, I had heard about that for the SCAR but had not heard it was a broader issue with DMR's in general. I was planning on finding a Night Force scope anyway though at least. On that topic, would you be able to recommend an objective lens size? I was thinking a NF NXS 3.5-15x50 due to price and features , but after thinking about it that seems fairly oversized for the rifle.

6.5CM is an excellent cartridge. Anytime I’m at the range nowadays and for the past several years, most people that would normally be shooting .308 Win are now shooting 6.5CM. Store shelves at all the big box stores have wide selections of 6.5CM, not only in my area but at other locations in various States that I have visited.

.308 is nice when you can find NATO 147gr battle packs for less than 1.00/round. Hornady makes a comparably-priced and far more accurate American Gunner 200rd ammo can in 6.5CM, just like they do for 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and 300BLK.

As far as platforms go, once you get away from the Stoner Internal Expansion System and step backwards in time to basically a 1920s piston design, accuracy will just not be there. Weight will increase as well, as will off-axis reciprocating mass that contributes to disrupted sight picture during the shot.

For optics, I really like the size and overall execution of the Leupold Mk5 HD and Mk6 3-18x44 scopes:

(Not mine)

Leupold has come out with a lot of different reticle options as well. I pretty much gave up on them many years ago because they didn’t have the features I was looking for when shooting LR, but they have responded to the demands of the market since then.

The optics section of the site has a lot of experience and advice. Biggest thing is to decide if the overall package will be more compact, or you don’t care and will ride a bench or the prone with it at ranges and not worry about weight/bulk. Once you decide that, it will be easier to figure out how to configure the overall rifle.

I’m more focused on rifles that I can actually carry, then get into a hasty field position or shoot off a tripod and make consistent hits with. It’s why I favor the AR-15 frame chambered in a higher performance intermediate rifle cartridge.

Here’s an example of one of the SCAR-17S rifles that has come through my courses. They’ve been effective out to 800yds:

 

[AnotherSandman]

6.5CM is an excellent cartridge. Anytime I’m at the range nowadays and for the past several years, most people that would normally be shooting .308 Win are now shooting 6.5CM. Store shelves at all the big box stores have wide selections of 6.5CM, not only in my area but at other locations in various States that I have visited.

.308 is nice when you can find NATO 147gr battle packs for less than 1.00/round. Hornady makes a comparably-priced and far more accurate American Gunner 200rd ammo can in 6.5CM, just like they do for 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and 300BLK.

As far as platforms go, once you get away from the Stoner Internal Expansion System and step backwards in time to basically a 1920s piston design, accuracy will just not be there. Weight will increase as well, as will off-axis reciprocating mass that contributes to disrupted sight picture during the shot.

For optics, I really like the size and overall execution of the Leupold Mk5 HD and Mk6 3-18x44 scopes:

(Not mine)

Leupold has come out with a lot of different reticle options as well. I pretty much gave up on them many years ago because they didn’t have the features I was looking for when shooting LR, but they have responded to the demands of the market since then.

The optics section of the site has a lot of experience and advice. Biggest thing is to decide if the overall package will be more compact, or you don’t care and will ride a bench or the prone with it at ranges and not worry about weight/bulk. Once you decide that, it will be easier to figure out how to configure the overall rifle.

I’m more focused on rifles that I can actually carry, then get into a hasty field position or shoot off a tripod and make consistent hits with. It’s why I favor the AR-15 frame chambered in a higher performance intermediate rifle cartridge.

Here’s an example of one of the SCAR-17S rifles that has come through my courses. They’ve been effective out to 800yds:

Sounds like it is getting pretty popular. I'd consider shooting it myself, but I just checked and the best price I could get for it right now is $1.75 per round. While that price and up is fine for actually trying to reach out and touch something, that's a little much to try and build a sufficient stock on top of buying a new rifle, scope, etc., though I'll be keeping an eye on it.

In terms of Stoner's design, I'll admit part of me was looking at a new rifle as getting something other than another AR; but I already have "fun guns" and the priority here is function so I shouldn't be surprised that an AR design comes out on top there.

I'm also thinking this project will turn into something less mobile, partly because I already have other options I can "run and gun" with so to speak.

That also looks like a pretty fun time, I'll need to try some courses like that some time.