Advanced Marksmanship Aerial Sniping Info

[CheechTheDon]

Hello all, I am part of a sniper section over here in eastern Afghanistan attached to an aviation unit. We are beginning to establish aerial platform sniping SOP's to compliment vehicle interdiction ground units by disabling the vehicle by precision shots to the engine block. We have already made a X harness for the aircraft door and are using our Barrett 107's topped with leupold mark 4 lrt's (backed off to 4.5x). If anyone has any experience with aerial shooting, and more so precision aerial shooting please chime in and provide some advice. Shots from the helicopters will be kept within 400m and 600 feet AGL and under 80 kts if that helps. Any suggestions on better FOV optics and reflex optics that will stand up to a bmg? All advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Try it out is the best advice. Put up a target, fly the bird and try to shoot it.

The rotor wash creates some turbulence at that can make hitting an engine block about impossible at some altitudes (the gun hopping up an down at 400M may be a 10 foot pattern. They are going to have to develop a specific set of parameters (speed, altitude etc) that make shooting the shot possible.

From what it sounds like (hitting an engine block) killing a person in the vehicle may not be OK, and if that's the case, the shot just might not be something you can take for lack of ability to guarantee that won't happen.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

We use to do some shooting from Chooppers, not with rifles but machine guns. Tried rifles (M16s) but that didn't work too well. '60s did. Our door gunners got "all tracer" belts. They were pretty easy to keep on target.

Tried all tracers in M16 Clips, they worked much better. To get rifles to work in choppers required to the aircraft to hover. Not a good idea in my opinion.

Firgured anything worth shooting was worth shooting lots. Best I've seen was full tracer belts in machine guns.

You can practice that shooting beer cans with a water hose.

 

[Emouse]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Try Bill Davison at TACPRO direct,...he was teaching this to foreign SF whilst still with the SBS. He has excellent knowledge of real world application of this technique.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To get rifles to work in choppers required to the aircraft to hover.</div></div>That was then; this is now: .223 with a dot or ACOG isn't a problem from a moving helicopter close to the ground.

OP, what kind of chopper? It makes a difference. But in my opinion there's nothing wrong with using a low power precision optic for that purpose.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

First off I have never seen the rotor wash have any effect even with a 5.56, but your mileage may vary.

A key component to shooting out of the bird is gonna be the pilot, how well he can keep you on a track that allows you to move the sights effectively to the target and keep them there.

Shooting from a bird is an alternate position, so a lot of forward leaning is necessary, so get aggressive. Low power is a must for optics, you really want to minimize the movement caused by magnification. If you plan on doing it on the move you have to practice a reverse lead on the target, it may help the shooters to practice out of a vehicle on static targets before trying the aircraft. The forward movement creates a different set of problems verses a vertical one. WIth speed the distance you are talking maybe a bit more of a challenge, that is actually a lot farther than you might realize when you are flying in the air at 80 knots.

Practice, practice, practice... is really the best advice you can be given. Use the same pilot, and talk to him, and determine which angle of attack works best for the platform, then stick to it.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

I have never seen rotor wash make a difference either, but maybe it's simply not enough of a difference to have to account for.

 

[samuraiwarrior23]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

We just did this over the summer. We used 3 different rifles at ranges from 100yds to 400yds.
1-Remy boltgun with a Leupold vari-x scope even at low power it was a bitch to get on target.
2-M1A iron sites more frequent hits then the boltgun.
3-AR15 with an eotech majority of rounds hit target.
Myself and another team member found the eotech to make hits easier.Def alot of practice is involved with moving platform you have to learn to shoot behind your target.

 

[MAT4-82]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

I would think Sniper School at Benning, or SOTIC at Bragg would have some info on this for you. Also the USCG interdiction teams do this probably more often than anyone. Have your section leader make an info request.

 

[Michaelvoigt1]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

You have a couple problems to overcome.

You will be bouncing, bumping and moving - keeping the reticle on aiming point will be difficult or impossible.

Stay focused on the target, let the aiming point come to the target and press trigger SMOOTHLY as aiming point and reticle merge.

A very aggressive offhand shooting position will allow you to absorb many of the bumps/thumps. A moving vehicle on various roads will give you a great practice platform.

Since you will be moving a reverse lead will be required for most targets. Helicopter speed in relation to the vehicle will change your leads. Stability of your shooting platform will dictate you accuracy and maximum effective distance.

MV

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Steadycam?

 

[Drifter]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Your M-107 will be money off a loosely hung strop across the door, the gun hanging in your strop will greatly reduce vibration, of course some helos vibrate more than others. A piece of 1" webbing with an adjustable buckle and a clip/caribiner on each end will give you versitility, and the ability to quickly adjust strop length for different altitudes/shooting positions and can be adjusted in seconds. This works well with the weight of the Barrett.

S&B 1x4 SD is a common piece of gear, the newer 1-8 would be great, as are eotech/aimpoint/acog type sights. Low power optic of choice, whatever you prefer. Your Mark 4s dialed down will still be a bit high on mag.

Lots of the old training material on aerial gunnery is just that, old and more geared toward machine guns, door gunners and supressive fire than precision rifle fire. Forward throw, and rotor wash won't make much difference in real world scenarios/ranges, I say this because you will likely shorten the distance some, 400m is a hell of a shot from a helo . You can work techniques for both hover fire and running fire to handle different scenarios and ranges.


I will say this, 150yds with you and target traveling at 50mph in step will make for challenging shooting. Much easier if collateral damage is not a concern . Add in the fact that the target vehicle will likely be traveling on less than perfectly flat road, and will be maneuvering agressively/evasively, then figure in the pilots, the wind...ect ect .

Personal preference will also dictate position. Some guys take a knee, some sit , some prone out, it will take practice to see what works for you and what your aricraft config will allow. Also how constrained by policy you are will also weigh in here. I will say this, if you are developing a SOP try to leave it a bit vague so there is some leeway with your set up.

 

[Jim the Plumber]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

We did this a month ago with bolt guns. It is doable, but practice is where it's at. We were engaging steal at `80-100 yards out from both hover and traveling about 20-30 knots. Learn your negative leads. I found that a slow swing through the target, as in skeet shooting, worked best for the moving helicopter. Swinging from in front to back.
I found, as LL said, be aggressive.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

PM sent dont reinvent the wheel.

 

[sinister]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Concur, don't re-invent the wheel.

First, is this a requirement or a mission-enhancing skill to keep in your kit bag?

I'd say if you were in the states to seek instruction. You may or may not get help by asking through operations net on AKO, or requesting training from the Infantry School.

It's not as easy as some make it sound. Learn the difference between "Lead" and "Lag" aiming.

Good luck.

{img]http://www.visualintel.net/Marines/Peopl...105_Rpogc-L.jpg[/img]

 

[Killer Spade 13]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Do not stop the helicopter!!! RPG's hurt!!! Ask me how I know.

Find an old Huey door gunner, he can give you some tips.

Try the Vietnam Helicopter Crew Members Association. You'll have a wealth of info to fall back on.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Old bean bag chairs absorb tons of vibrations...just sayn.

 

[375rgr]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Close the altitude and distance down as much as possible. By distance I mean less than 100m approach in a blind spot. Have a door gunner and alot of friends backing you up for when it goes bad or you will loose helos. The pilot needs the skill and confidance to match and hold the same speed as the vehicle. Good luck there. Trying longer ranges will not be very successful. Hang the gun from the roof with a strap it gives the best left to right and vertical transition. Use an Eotech for the sight it gives you the biggest field of view and at the distances you can actualy pull this off drop doesn't matter. Start in front of the vehicle and work your way back to the engine. Since shooting non combatants will be a problem. Long range vehicle interdiction from a helo is not practical in combat situations for what you are trying to do. If it is known they are all bad that is different. But then there are much better options for that.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

.

 

[Who Dat]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

As a shooter and a blade driver, the process boils down to team work between the pilot and the shooter. This is where having a large operational budget or have a wealthy background so that you can afford the helicopter time. The common method is to have a strap between an open door to take the vibration out of the system. You must know your height above the ground (AGL) and your distance from the target along with airspeed. This method there is really no math work you are just registering a miss or hit and developing your shoot data for different airspeeds, AGL and distance from target and writing it all down. Rotor wash does not effect bullet travel. You have to have a pilot who knows how to fly out of trim and knows how to keep it level. Using any old pilot is not going to help you at all, some pilots have an issue with walking the pedals for the gunner. Coasty's like the EOTECH becuase of the recticle and they know what their stand off distance is along with AGL and speed and they practice. While holding on target the gunner tells the pilot which way to move the tail of the aircraft to fly it out of trim so that he does not have to work to keep it steady on a moving target that they are tracking in parallel flight. Stationary targets are a little more difficult if you are moving and not hovering. You have to put everything into play just like you are making a high angle shot, the difference being you also have to input aircraft speed into the equation to come up with your mil-lead for a forward lead but you use that mil number for a reverse lead. All milspec aircraft have a radar altimeter so whatever pilot you work with will be able to tell you height above the ground or tell you from a chart. There is a lot of math work in the planning process prior to the flight so have your calculator. Convert feet to meters or yards, angle to the target, distance to target, target speed and lead. You have to have that working relationship with the pilot because he is part of the workup without it you might as well just use a SAW. Oh yea spent casing management is paramount spent brass through the tailrotor and everyone is going to have an arguement on how to land right side up on the way down. My hat is off to the gunner in the Robby you are a brave man.

 

[hognuts]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

We got the opportunity to do some shooting out of a chopper at ITRC two and three years ago respectively with Rock River AR's it was a blast, the first year my brother and I managed 10 hits combined out of two thirty round mags, he had 7 and I had 3. I believe the winning team had 13 combined hits. Voigt and Cooley from Team Hornaday. It was a blast though, I don't have any real advice for you as I have only attempted it twice, but it was a kick in the ass! (they did have brass catchers attached to the AR's to avoid the aforementioned brass in the tail rotor issue)

I would love to try it with the Barrett!!!

 

[Who Dat]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Turbine or nothing brother!

 

[Capt Beach]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

As a former USMC Armorer, PMI and Door Gunner (46's and 53's) Who Dat has given you the best description of what you are up against...

Learn Negative leads...

Also my first inclination might be to run an RMR with the smallest dot available vs trying to use a mildot scope with the power cranked down...the RMR is open, much like wing shooting with a shotgun. It allows you to keep everything in focus, dot, target, helo attitude and speed as well as terrain. At 400M an RMR RM01 3.25 MOA Dot will subtend approximately 13" or about 1/3 of the top surface area of an engine block.

Capt Beach

 

[BigDTexas68]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

Have been shooting about 8 months now out of Helos for DHS so I am by no means a expert but here are a few things I learned. first no helicopter is stable. Pilots have bad days and the wind always seems to be blowing from behind the bird. So "precision" is a relative term. Shooting a 107 is going to be tough. Its a beast to handle especially in the confines of a helo. (I shoot a SCAR heavy) Hanging the rifles from straps and really pushing it out the door will probably be your best bet. Free hand might be a "little" tough and going prone on the floor you still get a lot of vibration. Can a mount be fabricated and bolted to the floor of the helo? Just a thought.

Shooting comes down to practice. You want to try and avoid having to lead or lag a vehicle. That means knowing at 40kts and 100ft I need to shoot .3mils behind a stationary target to make impact. You can see how this can become a lengthy process of trying to match various speeds with altitude and stationary and moving targets. Math gets involved and I know I am terrible at math. ha! Ideally, you want to be within 100yrds of a vehicle to get that precision shot. We actually get closer. But the threat will dictate your distance. You don't want to be too high either. You want to try and give yourself a flat shot at the target. But again, the threat will also dictate this.

But the most important thing to do is communicate with the pilot. Once you get into the most stable and comfortable shooting position start talking to the pilot and directing him on what you need the bird to do. Don't try and force a position or a shot.

Good luck Sir and happy hunting. And Thank You for your service.

 

[DanGuy48]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steadycam? </div></div>

Ha! I was thinking exactly the same thing. Similar problem in each case, you'd think there'd be a way to adapt it for a rifle.

 

[hrt4me]

Re: Aerial Sniping Info

PM sent

 

[QuietShootr]

Done this a few times. I just rigged a sling across the door with tubular webbing - and as was mentioned several times already, using a bolt gun is not optimum. I used my 700 .300WM with 3.5-15x NF and was able to put hits on an engine compartment and a Pepper Popper from 200 and a B-27 from 300, but it was a LOT of work. When I switched to my SCAR 17 with Aimpoint and a Tactical Brass Recovery catcher things got a lot easier. Calling it "sniping" implies a lot more precision than you're going to be able to pull off. If/when I do it again, I'm not going to waste air time on the bolt gun.

A compilation video from one of the times we did this - it was mostly fucking around with M4s, but I did my precision thing too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Mx824rcGs