Suppressors AI AX PSR - 300 Norma Suppressed POI Comparison

[Drano]

This is re-posted from the "other" website.

Here is an impression of the Accuracy International AX PSR (300 Norma Magnum) with the following suppressors:

TBAC 338 BA
TBAC 338 BA “Hybrid” (BA modified with new Ultra core)
SureFire SOCOM2 338-TI
SilencerCo Harvester Big Bore
AAC Titan SS (stainless steel)
AAC Titan Ti
AAC Titan QD



Left to Right: AAC Titan SS, AAC Titan QD, AAC Titan Ti, TBAC BA ( & Hybrid), SureFire SOCOM2 338 Ti, SilencerCo Harvester Big Bore.



The caliber utilized was 300 Norma Magnum. The ammunition was factory from Norma (made in Sweden) with 230 grain Berger Hybrid bullet. This thread will mainly focus on the suppressed Point of Impact results from these suppressors.

I am not affiliated with any company.

As many know, the AI AX PSR kit comes with three barrels. With this kit, the owner got an additional barrel/caliber in 300 Norma Magnum. It is my understanding this additional Bartlein barrel was made by Dave Tooley from AINA specs.

The TBAC 338 BA suppressor was shot several months ago (5 shots). Weather, data, velocities were collected and the box of ammunition was put aside. The suppressor was then sent back to TBAC for the warranty modification replacing the old core with the new Ultra core. Most people have referred to the modified suppressor as a “Hybrid”. Once the Hybrid came back from TBAC with the new Ultra core, the remaining suppressors were collected. When the weather provided similar conditions, it was decided to go to the range for testing. When it came to shooting the TBAC Hybrid, the same box of ammo was used from testing the 338 BA.

The SureFire SOCOM2 338 Ti, Harvester Big Bore and TBAC Hybrid had never been used. It was the first shots through these suppressors.

For the AAC Titan QD, it was the updated version--without the plug welds. No discernible difference between the previous version except with the visible appearance of the plug welds.

For the AAC Titan SS, it was much heavier than the other suppressors. It weighed approximately 38 oz.

Although I would really like to conduct a thorough sound test, I do not have the equipment. To perform a sound test correctly, it would take very expensive equipment. I know there are alternate/inexpensive methods out there, but I sincerely believe it should be done the right way---equipment to accurately capture sound pressure level accuracy/duration/etc.

Although I can say the tone/pitch varied, it would be difficult to say one was actually quieter/louder than the other. These are some of the best suppressors out there. When you are suppressing up to .338 caliber, some serious engineering/research needs to occur. It would be tough to build a “budget/cheap” .338 suppressor. Other top shelf suppressors which I would have like to test but did not have on-hand would be: AWC THOR PSR; Elite Iron; Shark; SAS; Sig Sauer; & Crux. I hope to have access to a new TBAC 338 ULTRA soon.

There are other suppressor attributes along with sound reduction…..such as accuracy, durability, and weight. The main focus here was the accuracy/repeatability, albeit only an initial impression. Only 3 shot strings were completed. To be more complete, it would/should be enough to capture any velocity shift and group trends.

The reason why I chose 300 Norma Magnum was: 1) I see a lot of requests for sub-caliber suppressor tests; 2) the increase of popularity of 338 Norma and 300 Norma; 3) the military is researching future utilization of it; 4) it is a cool cartridge. Please make no mistake, I still believe 338 Lapua is an amazing cartridge too and love to shoot it.


Parameters/Protocol:

100yds
Temp: 73 F
Station Pressure: 29.90
Wind: 2-3 knots @ 8 o’clock
Elevation: 194’
Humidity: 41.4 %
Density Altitude: 1090 ft

Point of Aim: Center 'X'

The rifle was zeroed when unsuppressed(data at the bottom of post). During this time, there was no muzzle brake nor thread protector used since this could skew the results.
NOTE: This rifle is already well known for accuracy and quality. I removed the suppressor after EACH shot and re-attached it. I wanted to see---- not only accuracy, but also repeatability. I am not the best shot, but did my best to maintain a consistent platform. I am sure others can do better than me.
Overall: All were 3 shot groups (except for the TBAC 338 BA, it was 5 shots--there was one flyer).

First picture: AAC Titan Ti. 3 shot group.



Second picture: AAC Titan SS. 3 shot group.



Third picture: AAC Titan QD. 3 shot group.



Fourth picture: TBAC 338 BA. 5 shot group.



Fifth picture: TBAC 338 BA “Hybrid”. 3 shot group.



Sixth picture: SilencerCo Harvester Big Bore. 3 shot group.



Seventh picture: SureFire SOCOM2 338 Ti. 3 shot group.




Below is the 100 yd zero (6 shots). The baseline accuracy’s main limiting factor (LIMFAC) is me. I am sure people can produce better groups, but this is what happened on that day. NOTE: I took 4 initial shots prior to producing the zero below. A total of 10 rounds were expended before performing the suppressor tests.

Eighth Picture: Unsuppressed. 6 shot group---no brake nor thread protector.

 

[TBACRAY]

How do they sound?

 

[02NBMFormula]

It would be interested to weigh the cans and see if there is any correlation with POI shift, i.e. can x and y both weight x oz's and had similar POI shift.

 

[Drano]

TBACRAY----IMHO--Overall, all of suppressors sounded similar to 338 Norma and/or 338 Lapua with a suppressor. They all did a good job of reducing sound signature.
1) The heavier stainless steel version of the AAC had a deeper tone/pitch then the rest of them.
2) With respect to the two versions of the TBAC (only from my memory)--- the newer “Hybrid” BA was noticeably quieter than the original BA---but the difference was not accurately measured(no sound equipment).


Also, the SilencerCo Big Bore, AAC Titan SS and Ti were direct threaded M18x1.5; the TBAC(s) were threaded over muzzle brake; the Titan QD and SureFire had their respective QD mounts.

As for the weight correlation, just by looking at the Titan SS--—the heaviest one had the most drop. But the SureFire and SilencerCo were almost identical weights and first time ever shooting them. Their POI were not the same. I agree it is a good question and should be explored further. This was just an initial impression.

 

[George from Alaska]

Nice thorough study... Thanks! I have an AWC Thor XL PSR in .30. At 100 yards there is only a slight POI shift to the left and up... about a 10:00 position and maybe 3/4 of an inch away from center on a Ruger Precision .303 I also have a GemTech Arrow (before I knew about ThunderBeast) and it does a remarkable job of suppression, is very light and POI shift on my .338 Lapua is about 4" high with the suppressor at 330 yards - the farthest our range has. I'm ordering the new Thunderbeast .338, probably when my next retirement check comes... then I will have to eat leftovers and canned food for the month.... I have plenty..

 

[jtbiv01]

Solid eval Drano! Thanks

 

[Vargmat]

Drano, you wrote:"It would be tough to build a “budget/cheap” .338 suppressor.".

For years I have found it interesting and a bit strange that suppressors are such high priced equipment in the US.
I live in Sweden, and have been into some form of shooting sports since I was 14 years old. Im 37 now and precision rifles has been my interest for the last 10 years or so. In Scandinavia most hunters and shooters use suppressors, usually made by some Scandinavian brand, such as Stalon, A-Tec, Vmac, Ase Utra, Hausken, Jaki, RCC or others. There are more than a few to choose from. They can be had in pretty much any common caliber (338 Lapua included) and you can choose from small compact versions to big heavy "whisper" versions. Pretty much none of them cost as much as you guys pay for suppressors in the US.

I am no engineer, but have been certified as a CNC-machinist so I do belive I have some insight in how to make suppressors, and really, its not all that hard. And it does not need to cost that much. Which is proven by Scandinavian manufacturers daily. Almost every brand mentioned has suppressors starting from 295$ up to 699$, with few exceptions.

It would be interesting to compare the main models offered by Scandinavian makers to the group of suppressors you rounded up for this test.
And as a bottom line, I guess US manufacturers can charge as much as they do, as long as people pay for it.

 

[Zak Smith]

The last sentence technically sums up how a free economy works for any product; however, the sentiment misses the mark when it comes to analysis of why the US suppressor market is how it is. The regulations here have implications that affect consumer behavior and preferences and go up the supply chain into how they are manufactured. I will also point out that there are some very cheap suppressors on the market (set a horizon at about 1.5x the cost of the tax stamp) yet those aren't the most popular suppressors; it is instructive to think about why.

 

[Vargmat]

Zak: Yeah, I know it is a trueism that works for anything in a free economy. It was the best way I could word it with my morning coffee as company.
I guess the expensive tax stamps and wate times plays into it. It lends it self to a "buy once, cry once" mentality and during the time it takes the form to clear, there are plenty of time to raise more cash, which probably makes people opt for more expensive suppressors. That would be my guess anyways.

In Sweden, a permit cost about 23$ in todays currency value, and it clears in 4-8 weeks. In Norway, anyone with a hunting rifle can buy a suppressor straight over the counter and I think it is the same in Finland.

With all this written. Its not that Scandinavian made suppressors are cheap shit. Far from it. But when most of the competition sells suppressors in the 300$ range, you better get in on that pricelevel or you are out of the game before it even started.

 

[generalzip]

Suppressors are more expensive (and likely higher quality construction and materials in the US) because it takes a year and $200 bucks for a tax stamp. It's not something you can get off the shelf tomorrow and toss out when it's worn out. It's a lifelong investment and thus needs to last much longer because of how difficult they are to get and the cost of the stamp.

 

[Vargmat]

Suppressors are more expensive (and likely higher quality construction and materials in the US) because it takes a year and $200 bucks for a tax stamp. It's not something you can get off the shelf tomorrow and toss out when it's worn out. It's a lifelong investment and thus needs to last much longer because of how difficult they are to get and the cost of the stamp.

CNC cut alloy, titanium and stainless steel are the same grade and some are probably from the same suppliers. If the dude next to the machine lives in the US or in Sweden makes no difference.
And any way you look at it, a suppressor is a consumable part. It will ware out, some sooner than others.

 

[generalzip]

CNC cut alloy, titanium and stainless steel are the same grade and some are probably from the same suppliers. If the dude next to the machine lives in the US or in Sweden makes no difference.
And any way you look at it, a suppressor is a consumable part. It will ware out, some sooner than others.

1. There are multiple alloys and grades of Ti and steel. No, they are not all the same. Even from supplier to supplier they can have differences in quality control and price. Trump also not long ago put additional tax on steel importation which affects many exotic steels from manufacturers overseas ie. Sanvik, Sumitomo.
2. Yes, actually it does matter where the guy lives that's next to the machine. Whats the cost of living? What is market pay for the machinist? In the US, he likely has a college degree, etc. Not all machinists are created equal. I'm not saying Swedish people can't make good machinists, but your assumption the cost of the machinist doesn't go into the product is foolish.
3. Of course a can will wear. That's my entire argument. They are made to a very high level of craftsmanship and using the highest quality materials because they must be built to last as long as possible given the difficulty in obtaining them and the cost of a tax stamp.

 

[Vargmat]

Naturally there are multiple grades of every material, but similar material should prove similar results, right? I was writing what I wrote in line of talking quality. That the orange man in the White house makes things harder are another issue and I wont digress further on that.
I would think that the cost of living is probably around the same, you guys over pay for some stuff, and we for other, but again, I was thinking in terms of quality when I wrote before. And a skilled machinist is a skilled machinist, I think we can agree on that?

A quality suppressor made of quality materials will last thousands of rounds, agree? Fitted to a quality rifle it will do its job, anytime, everytime, without issue, right?
As Zak wrote, the terms of the US market sets the price to what it is. Our terms are different, thus our price range is different. That is what this conversation showed. At least to me.

I still would find it interesting to test SiCo, AAC, Surefire and others against what I regularly see at the range here.

 

[RonA]

Naturally there are multiple grades of every material, but similar material should prove similar results, right? I was writing what I wrote in line of talking quality. That the orange man in the White house makes things harder are another issue and I wont digress further on that.
I would think that the cost of living is probably around the same, you guys over pay for some stuff, and we for other, but again, I was thinking in terms of quality when I wrote before. And a skilled machinist is a skilled machinist, I think we can agree on that?

A quality suppressor made of quality materials will last thousands of rounds, agree? Fitted to a quality rifle it will do its job, anytime, everytime, without issue, right?
As Zak wrote, the terms of the US market sets the price to what it is. Our terms are different, thus our price range is different. That is what this conversation showed. At least to me.

I still would find it interesting to test SiCo, AAC, Surefire and others against what I regularly see at the range here.

I'm not sure how one would go about getting the suppressors together, but maybe good meter data would be a start. Maybe even use the same meter and equipment? Shipping isn't that expensive.

 

[Zak Smith]

Find a LE department that has the foreign suppressors in question on a LE import letter and we'll bring the PULSE

 

[Vargmat]

RonA: getting gunparts over the Atlantic is a bitch and a half. So manufacturers data is all that is reasonable to compare. Sadly enough...

 

[RonA]

RonA: getting gunparts over the Atlantic is a bitch and a half. So manufacturers data is all that is reasonable to compare. Sadly enough...

Been there on the State Dept stuff and AES .
Over the years I've learned that manufacturers data isn't the most reliable. I've loaned my meter out several times for people to do independent testing. It's not the best, but it gives good data(B&k 2209).

 

[Zak Smith]

From here on out, we do not consider 2209 data to be good in an objective way any more. It's probably OK for A vs B comparison if they are shot immediately back to back; better than a L-D anyway. B&K pulled a dozen 2209's and tested vs their PULSE system and only I think one of them matched. Our 2209 data (over multiple calibrated units) drifted a lot over time, and you can see this in the videos. Our PULSE data from the same can metered over the last year in a variety of locations, environmental conditions, etc, is dead on. Also even with great equipment it's easy to taint a scientific measurement procedure, intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[RonA]

I agree the 2209 doesn't give the data one needs to properly test suppressors. I think doing same day testing it's close enough if you are just looking for a DB number, but if you are looking for frequency range and how fast the level drops over distance, I still like the o-scope with multiple microphones at set distances. Plus the math is kind of fun. Nobody gives a shit about this kind of stuff any more, but i find it interesting

 

[LeftyJason]

@Zak Smith how many rounds do you guys have on some of your test cans?

@Vargmat what materials have you cut as a machinist?

Also can you post a link for the website of stalon, vmac, and rcc.

From what I've seen:
Ase 300 series stainless welded

A-tec aluminum or aluminum with steel

Hausken aluminum with some steel

Jaki some stainless, titanium with aluminum.

As a comparison
Thunderbeast ultras all titanium; 22 takedown grade 9 titanium with 17-4 baffles; 556 takedown 316l tube with 17-4 baffles. No aluminum.

Silencerco omega stainless, titanium stellite; harvester aluminum stainless. No cans that are just aluminum.

Surefire titanium or stainless and inconel.

Dead air nomad 17-4 and titanium; sandman 17-4 and stellite; sandman ti titanium and stellite.

Sig srd stainless inconel 718; ti grade 5 titanium.

 

[TBACRAY]

I put 10K rounds of 338 Lapua through a 338 Ultra on a 16" barrel. Then beat it for many thousands after that before a dude at a demo didn't mount it properly and sent a bullet through it sideways. Some of my demo cans in my truck are petty old and get abused often. The rate of fire at public demos with free ammo is hard on equipment.

 

[atombomb]

This was a good read, and I was thinking that no one brought up any kind of product liability or insurance costs for the US vs.
foreign companies. I also agree that if we could buy a $200 can over the counter with a $23 dollar stamp, we wouldn't care if it only lasted a few thousand rounds before we pitched it to just grab another one when we wanted. But as I go on 10 months waiting to get my 338SR can, I myself wanted to make sure I got a product that will last me 10 years, not 2... so the piece of mind to buy an absolute top quality piece is a must and worth the price. Can machinists and fabricators all over the world do the same quality of work... probably, but there are so many more costs that must be factored into the US process, that it is the cost to for us to play... thanks @TBACRAY and all of the TBAC guys who routinely jump in here to answer questions, I appreciate that level of customer service!