AI, Sako or Mausingfield for....

[Sixfivesavage]

...the strongest most durable rifle I own? I've decided I need a fail safe rifle that I never have to worry about failing to eject because it's seen a hot round or higher than normal pressure from carbon. Long story but I'm tired of replacing ejector springs when I don't clean often enough. I've always dreamed of an AI but there's none around me and I'm not sure I can live with a pistol grip. I've tried an MPA chassis, Cadex competition chassis and XLR chassis to see if I could deal with one. None worked for me, the cadex came closest but I just always seem more comfortable with say a T6 or EH1 or the like. How do the AI AT skins compare to those chassis and will the thumbhole skins be any different from the pistol grip? If it's not even worth trying then I'm assuming my next options are a TRG or build off a mausingfield. Price wise, they are probably all gonna be close to each other. I don't plan to run anything mag boltface or long action, so the swapable Bolt heads aren't much of a deal maker for me for this one. Just something that's going to feed, fire and eject no matter the situation. What's the thoughts on this one?

 

[dirthead1]

I think it's going to be difficult to say anything is more battle proven than an AI. If SHTF reliability is your number 1 thing, AI.

 

[NateVA]

If you hate the pistol grips ergonomics so much, then I'd consider using a Mausingfield so you can pick whichever stock you want. If reliability is your #1 then between the Mausingfield and Sako I think the Mausingfield's extractor and ejector definitely win there. Then again maybe I'm biased because I'm ordering a build on a Mausingfield tomorrow.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

I think the solution you are looking for is not loading a hot round, and not forgetting to do minimal cleaning on your rifle.

Of the three, the Mausingfield will probably tolerate neglect more because the extractor and ejector don't have springs to wear out. I don't think I've ever seen the ejector spring on any of the other two wear out. The AI and Sako both have a longer and more proven track record though.

 

[Ledzep]

If you know you like the T2/T4/T6/EH1 stock feel, I wouldn't mess with the AI. I'm not saying they're bad rifles, they're outstanding rifles, I just don't like the stock, and given the choice, and spending my money.... I'm going with what's comfortable. The KRG grip angle was about the only chassis I could stand, and I still ended up swapping to an EH1.

When my 6.5 SAUM barrel in my Mausingfield grows a carbon ring and smokes a case or two, I notice a tougher bolt lift, that's about it. Between this 6.5 SAUM and my .260 and 6 comp match barrels (Pushing 4000 rounds total) I've never had a failure to extract or eject. Failures to feed have only been with the SAUM cases because of trial and error bending .308 class magazines' lips. My M5's SN is in the 20's and there have been numerous changes and improvements made to the system since I got mine.

It's hard to recommend something in lieu of an AI when "reliability" comes up, but I think for what you're describing the M5 will do what you want to a T. Extractor fitting being the only thing to keep an eye on; but it's a set-it-and-forget-it thing for the smith to do.

I don't have any experience with a TRG, can't comment there.

 

[NateVA]

Extractor fitting being the only thing to keep an eye on; but it's a set-it-and-forget-it thing for the smith to do.

I've heard about that. Is that something the smith takes care of while doing a build or is it something that they only take a look at if it starts developing problems?

 

[missed]

I'm voting for the Mausingfield.

I shot an AI for a while that was a buddies. Fine rifle. I don't care for the pistol grip or thumb hole stocks, the ergonomics just didn't work for me.

I love my Mausingfield. The last trip was 3 days in West Texas, in the dirt and sand. My rifle was the only one out of a Defiant, a Surgeon, and a worked over 700 that had no issues with the sand.

I have run loads to the limit in mine, but I back off the limits. I want safe and reliable as my kids shoot this rifle also.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I think the solution you are looking for is not loading a hot round, and not forgetting to do minimal cleaning on your rifle.

Of the three, the Mausingfield will probably tolerate neglect more because the extractor and ejector don't have springs to wear out. I don't think I've ever seen the ejector spring on any of the other two wear out. The AI and Sako both have a longer and more proven track record though.

It's not a matter of neglect or abuse or minimal cleaning or loading hot. It's as simple as this particular barrel goes from no pressure to carbon ring and enough pressure to smoke an ejector spring on a TL2 in the matter of a shot or two. Never shows a sign of accuracy dropping off or any extractor swipe or anything. Very annoying. The one time it was from a hot load was hornady factory stuff. I have a TL3 to try out and see how I like it but I still find myself looking at these three rifles often. I'm thinking the mausingfield is my best option because of stock concerns. LRI is probably going to get an order from me this fall for one, just need to decide on chambering, length and if I'm going to use a mini chassis or not.

 

[BobinNC]

Both the AI and Sako TRG have been used in combat under adverse conditions. They have a track record of excellence. Mauserfield is a nice design, but it has a track record of NIL in combat and harsh conditions. Sure it's based on a great battle rifle, but it didn't come from the Oberndorf factory with tons of slop built in to assure functionality.

Over time the Mauserfield may achieve a track record equal to or better than AI or Sako TRG. But that time is not today....YMMV IMHO

 

[Ledzep]

I've heard about that. Is that something the smith takes care of while doing a build or is it something that they only take a look at if it starts developing problems?

Should be taken care of during the build process if they check function at all. It could get missed if all the smith is doing is putting a barrel on an action I suppose. Many of them work right off the bat, some may be sluggish, and some may nearly lock up about 3/4 forward in the bolt throw (especially if you run the bolt slow). It's a 15-20 minute job that requires removal of a minimal amount of material-- You're just clearancing for the rim and the chamfer just in front of the rim as the case slides up the face of the bolt. Ted makes them tight to err on the side of caution. If it was too loose from the get-go you can't really fix it and may get extraction/ejection issues.

Once they're correctly adjusted they run slicker than snot, work at any speed, can snap over a single-loaded round, and have positive extraction and ejection.

 

[NateVA]

Should be taken care of during the build process if they check function at all. It could get missed if all the smith is doing is putting a barrel on an action I suppose. Many of them work right off the bat, some may be sluggish, and some may nearly lock up about 3/4 forward in the bolt throw (especially if you run the bolt slow). It's a 15-20 minute job that requires removal of a minimal amount of material-- You're just clearancing for the rim and the chamfer just in front of the rim as the case slides up the face of the bolt. Ted makes them tight to err on the side of caution. If it was too loose from the get-go you can't really fix it and may get extraction/ejection issues.

Once they're correctly adjusted they run slicker than snot, work at any speed, can snap over a single-loaded round, and have positive extraction and ejection.

Longrifles Inc are the ones doing the build so I'm sure they do this. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[ianagos]

Is something like a win 70 not in the cards? Or does it have to be a "precision action" . I think most of the crf actions are really gonna be better for reliability and always working. Besides that for a pushfeed I like the Howa but I personally am a fan of action with integral recoil lugs as that to me just make a stronger action not a cheaper build.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

I'm not dead set against a model 70 or even a SPR action but if I go that route it's not going to be a DBM. Don't like the options out there or having to modify the action to take them. I have a TL3 sitting here doing nothing, what's the consensus on potential gains in extraction and ejection of a Mausingfield over the TL3? I'm sure the claw engages more cartridge rim than the TL3 but is it a substantial amount? I would think ejection would be similar.

 

[jbuck88]

I might get into trouble for this, but I would go with a proven action if durability and "run at all cost" was my top priority. That would be AI, mouser, or Win model 70(with a upgraded extractor). I could be way off but I look at the replaceable bolt heads as another point to fail, and the mousingfield falling under the jack of all trades, master of none, monicker.

 

[ianagos]

I guess the dbm situation is a thing but for $100 you can pickup a ptg bottom metal that takes Ai mags and while it ain't the prettiest it gets the job done. Honestly I'm just talking about what you first mentioned a strong durable will alway works extract and feed rifle but still some accuracy. Mausers are pretty good but I don't see many "precision" actions. The spr is the win 70 to me so those fall in the same boat.

 

[hypno02]

I personally don't think any action that takes a M700 style trigger should be in this conversation.

Vote= AI

 

[LastShot300]

Both the AI and Sako TRG have been used in combat under adverse conditions. They have a track record of excellence. Mauserfield is a nice design, but it has a track record of NIL in combat and harsh conditions. Sure it's based on a great battle rifle, but it didn't come from the Oberndorf factory with tons of slop built in to assure functionality.

Over time the Mauserfield may achieve a track record equal to or better than AI or Sako TRG. But that time is not today....YMMV IMHO

Good piece of advice!

 

[Ledzep]

M98 mauser or M70 over a M5 because of a pinned bolt head or "track record"? Look, do what you want, but you'd have to be in another world to take a C&R Mauser action made 50-120 years ago from unknown steel (potentially a casting...) with an unknown heat treat (Ballpark typically 30-35 HRC hardness) with an unknown number of cycles on it, with like one source for DBM, and likely modification to the receiver necessary to get DBM to fit.... When the M5 was designed to take what worked in the M98 and M1903 as a BASELINE then design above it and use newer, better materials and manufacturing processes... If the goal is strength and reliability.

Likewise with the M70. The CRF M70 is a streamlined M98 hunting rifle. Certainly a better option than a M98 in my opinion, but you're still looking at a limited aftermarket, and depending which M70 you get, potentially need modification to the action to take DBM.

The M5 is the good parts of the M700, M70, M98... but better. Better materials, better design, better execution, better aftermarket. You can argue that the M5 is relatively new but it's a pretty weak argument, and it gets weaker every day. I'm not the most active shooter in the world and I have close to 4000 live cycles on mine in a wide gamut of conditions ( hot loads, wind, sand, snow, rain, hot, cold...) over the last 2 years without failure or damage. I ran in bone dry in the first year I shot matches with it to see if I could get the lugs to gall in heat, wind, dust, etc... Didn't happen. I know there are people out there with a lot more cycles than me and I'm not a religious follower of every post on every gun board, but I have never seen nor heard of a M5 failure other than Ted's safety tests (watch the youtube videos if you think they're not up to snuff).

 

[Ledzep]

PS. Used in combat means fuckall-- I give more credence to hunting rifles taken to the weird places serious hunters go to kill sheep and goats. The Mosin Nagant PU sniper has thousands of kills on the eastern front and decades of usage by communists and guerrillas since. It's still a garbage rod. I own one, it sucks.

Consider this; the M40 and M24 are the standard sniper rifles in service by the US military, suped up M700's... 50+ years of service and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that the M5 is better than a trued M700.

 

[jbuck88]

PS. Used in combat means fuckall-- I give more credence to hunting rifles taken to the weird places serious hunters go to kill sheep and goats. The Mosin Nagant PU sniper has thousands of kills on the eastern front and decades of usage by communists and guerrillas since. It's still a garbage rod. I own one, it sucks.

Consider this; the M40 and M24 are the standard sniper rifles in service by the US military, suped up M700's... 50+ years of service and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that the M5 is better than a trued M700.

This.

I agree with just about everything you are saying. But I would look at what people are using to hunt dangerous game, not sheep. When it has to work because your life or customers life depend on it going bang every time. I would guess you are going to see a lot of m70's and K98's, along with some cz550 and doubles.

 

[BobinNC]

PS. Used in combat means fuckall-- I give more credence to hunting rifles taken to the weird places serious hunters go to kill sheep and goats. The Mosin Nagant PU sniper has thousands of kills on the eastern front and decades of usage by communists and guerrillas since. It's still a garbage rod. I own one, it sucks.

Consider this; the M40 and M24 are the standard sniper rifles in service by the US military, suped up M700's... 50+ years of service and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that the M5 is better than a trued M700.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...ations-on-gear

Not combat but indicative of the type of weather found where hunters kill sheep and goats....When you take a M5 out in weather like that come back and we'll talk, cause your opinion really means fuckall....

 

[brianf]

Only issue is that the op wants bombproof etc. since everything breaks sooner or later the most import thing is availability of spare parts. Sako and AI will be in business and there are spare part markets already in place, military contracts have this in place for possible issues of supply. They could go out of business and there will still be spare parts around.
the mausingfield while a great action (and possibly every bit as good as one of the other two), is a niche small market small supplier of distinctive pieces. Most of which you will never see at a store.
mausingfield goes out of business and we have to pray that some one makes the special lugs if not when something goes wrong we all have very expensive clubs.

 

[Sixfivesavage]

That's an awesome read. Not likely that I'll be facing that but I'd like to know my main rifle could face it. I don't know about this one, it's either stomach the magazine cost of the Sako, the pistol grip of the AI or the succeptable trigger style of the Mausingfield. I'm just not sure the TL3 could handle the same a Mausingfield could.

 

[Ledzep]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...ations-on-gear

Not combat but indicative of the type of weather found where hunters kill sheep and goats....When you take a M5 out in weather like that come back and we'll talk, cause your opinion really means fuckall....

This year I did my newest barrel's break in in 5 degree Fahrenheit weather with wind and snow. Last year's deer hunt was sitting in snow in the teens and twenties. It's South Dakota, it's cold and shitty all the time in the winter and I shoot in it and call coyotes. I can document it if you'd like... Some of it is in the range report section. Photobucket killed off my pictures though.

You can think whatever you want. I have the article in hand and I've abused it, beyond what most would take without damage, and it's ticking right along. My experience isn't exclusive either. Some of it is subjective. A lot of it is great design and execution.

 

[matt2143]

You may not like the Ergo's but an AI will outlast pretty much everything else out there. I have been a lot of places and seen a lot of things but I have never seen any other guns that will run 100k rounds before getting serviced. Ask Jacob Bynum.....

 

[ianagos]

Well I hear what you are saying ledzep

But precision and accuracy tend to mean tight tolerances and good matching while that fn spr is loose as a goose from the factory and I can throw it in mud pull it out and it's still gonna feed while as soon as you start getting small bits of rock in that tight bolt you are gonna do damage to a very expensive action and then it's gonna start jamming up. To me it's like comparing an ar to an ak I've shot 400 rounds of 3 round burst and rapid fire from my m16 and it didn't jam but I keep it clean and soaked it in clp at all times and even then by the end it was having trouble feeding because the bolt was getting jammed up while no such thing happens in an Ak-47 I don't think we have ever cleaned our ak not than a bolt wipe down because it just works.

But that's a bit of a tangent.

In the end I don't own an m5 and I all I can put out there is my opinion and I'm just biased to that design which is sorta based off a Mauser and while it has only seen a bit of military service it's seen service in all places by hunters.

But if you want to send me an m5 to test I'll put it through its paces. I'll just take it out to the feild and after getting dropped from my hmmwve and getting the sands in 29 palms to the Camp Pendleton mud we can see. Jk about that I'd never be allowed to take anything but my lousey m16.

 

[Ledzep]

I would agree, if we were talking about a Defiance Deviant that gums up if you put a .001" thick layer of Cerakote on it (yeah yeah, I know... they offer them now optionally with more clearance than they did before). The M5 has something like .010-.015" of clearance on the bolt body diameter, with a tapered rear end that locks up tight as the bolt closes.

It's toleranced to work. Some parts are tighter than others, but there's room for dirt and dust and snow and it doesn't lock up, and the toroidal lugs allow for complete lug engagement even if there is some misalignment (There's not room for much, in any action... Some folks seem to believe you can really wiggle a bolt around in an action...). Precision is the result of a quality barrel, quality ammo, uniform lug engagement, and stock/action interface. How you get there doesn't matter; if you dress up a Mosin Nagant 91/30 the way you would a M700, you will get the same group size. Anyway, like I mentioned before, right after I got my M5 I ran it completely dry in local PRS matches, and Chad Dixon from LRI ran his doused in oil (dirt magnet). We made a point not to clean them or wipe them down and never had an issue. We ran 500 rounds as fast as we could with a fire-forming barrel that got so hot we had to water cool it. We filled the shop with dust and sand from the test-fire barrel there in the shop, it was hot, dusty, dirty, sandy with long head-space cartridges (false shoulder for fire forming). If an action was ever going to gall, that's where it would have happened. The M5 came out spotless, different surface finish where the lugs swept past in their recesses.

4340 with a proper heat treat is one of the strongest, toughest high-strength steels out there. The M5 is not just another M700 clone made to "tighter tolerances", the design work and how these are made is on another level.

ETA: I have no experience with Sakos, but I have shot a few AI's, and IMO the M5 is on a similar level. It's hard to do a direct comparison because one is a factory standard rifle, the other is just an action and is really dependent on the smith doing the work. But I was in the infantry, and I'd have no qualms being issued an M40 built on an M5. I believe it's at least on that level, and I think if the American Rifle Co. grows, I can see them producing complete packages similar to what AI puts out.

 

[W54/XM-388]

There is one rifle I'd bet my life on and the lives of many others on as well.
That is my old school AI AW rifle with the dovetail mount & a S&B scope.

 

[orenp]

Just re-read the OP's question. Durability and reliability (no failures to feed or eject) are his primary criteria. Most of the discussion has been "Ford versus Chevy". IMHO I think he should actually consider a M98 or M70. Their long history is based on their inherent durability and reliability and that's an understatement. You can argue improvements in metallurgy and manufacturing but that's just arguing if neither has been a significant problem in the past. Accuracy? The action is NOT the limiting factor in accuracy. A M98 or M70 can be made plenty accurate - it's just not as easy; real gunsmithing skills are required, not just assembly of the latest aftermarket parts. Just my opinion. Let the bashing begin....


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Covertnoob5]

My opinion may not hold as much weight because I haven't had it very long yet, but my AI is the most robust feeling, built for war, tank of a rifle I've ever had. I would bet my life in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LastShot300]

In my limited experience, I always look for: controlled round feed, mechanical extraction, 3-position safety and you are done. Of course, not necessarily the best recipe for accuracy but it works every time, all the time. Of the clones, the TL3 is of my liking too.