AI v. DT v. MPA v. MDT v. Cadex

[Xeoh]

I am looking to buy or build a bolt gun that is good for PRS, but also bombproof enough for end times. This would be my first, and likely only, bolt gun. I will likely want to stick to a .308 bolt face and have the ability to readily change between .308 and 6.5 creedmoor barrels.

If money were no object, what would you get? I am currently looking at the following:

• AI AT-X
• DT SRS M2
• MPA BA ESR
• MDT ACC
• MDT ESS
• Cadex Strike Pro
• Cadex Field Competition

For the MPA / MDT / Cadex options, what action would you choose? I am leaning toward Impact 737.

TYIA.

 

[Krob95]

AI forsure.

 

[canezach]

Of the rifles you listed, I have an AI AX short action and DT SRS, in addition to other rifles, like a Bighorn TL3 in an MPA comp chassis that serves as my primary match rifle. Between the AI and DT, I love them both for different reasons. I find accuracy and precision between the two are nearly identical, maybe just a very slight advantage to the AI due to it having a better trigger. The DT trigger is nice, for a bullpup, while the AI trigger is just nice, period (if that makes sense).

Fit and finish goes to the AI. For either rifle, I can go from one caliber to another in a matter of minutes, although the barrel change on the DT is faster, if that matters to you. Just loosen four bolts, pull out the old barrel, insert the new barrel, torque the bolts, and you're done.

What I love about the DT is how compact it is. With a 26" barrel and suppressor, I'm still significantly more compact than the AI. The downside is you either love or hate the bolt position on the DT. There doesn't seem to be any "in between". You have to get behind one to see if it's something you can tolerate, and that ignores if you have a stage requiring off-hand shooting. It's doable, just not ideal.

The other downside is DT mags don't lend themselves to the typical match stages. The 10 round DT mag is long, since it's a single stack, and considerably longer than even a 10 round AI mag.

 

[Xeoh]

Of the rifles you listed, I have an AI AX short action and DT SRS, in addition to other rifles, like a Bighorn TL3 in an MPA comp chassis that serves as my primary match rifle. Between the AI and DT, I love them both for different reasons. I find accuracy and precision between the two are nearly identical, maybe just a very slight advantage to the AI due to it having a better trigger. The DT trigger is nice, for a bullpup, while the AI trigger is just nice, period (if that makes sense).

Fit and finish goes to the AI. For either rifle, I can go from one caliber to another in a matter of minutes, although the barrel change on the DT is faster, if that matters to you. Just loosen four bolts, pull out the old barrel, insert the new barrel, torque the bolts, and you're done.

What I love about the DT is how compact it is. With a 26" barrel and suppressor, I'm still significantly more compact than the AI. The downside is you either love or hate the bolt position on the DT. There doesn't seem to be any "in between". You have to get behind one to see if it's something you can tolerate, and that ignores if you have a stage requiring off-hand shooting. It's doable, just not ideal.

The other downside is DT mags don't lend themselves to the typical match stages. The 10 round DT mag is long, since it's a single stack, and considerably longer than even a 10 round AI mag.

I agree the DT single stack mags are a huge downside, offset only by the upside of DT's shorter OAL.

 

[Eric32]

AI AX or AT. End of times and PRS enough stay away from the AI comp trigger

 

[st1650]

The DTA mag is its weakest point. The magwell is kinda just 2 plastic skins sandwiched together. The mags are expensive, single stack. Otherwise it’s a great platform but unlimited money Id get an AT-X. On a budget ? You can find an older A1 which is superior to the A2/M2 IMO.

The DTA is compact but harder to balance on barricade because of the weight distribution but from the bench or tripod it’s nice.

For a R700 build I’d do an TL3, Archimedes or a Terminus.

 

[st1650]

AI AX or AT. End of times and PRS enough stay away from the AI comp trigger

Isn’t the AI comp trigger on the AT-X ?

 

[Eric32]

Yea they are a little less than reliable in the long term without consistent cleaning very couple of hundred rounds. End of time aspect I would go with the regular trigger. Strictly comp I would do the ATX.

 

[Xeoh]

AI AX or AT. End of times and PRS enough stay away from the AI comp trigger

Are you saying you don't like the AT-X trigger? If so, can you please elaborate? Thx.

 

[Eric32]

They are finicky that's all I am saying

 

[canezach]

I agree the DT single stack mags are a huge downside, offset only by the upside of DT's shorter OAL.

And, in my opinion, as a downside, it ranges from mildly irritating to significant, depending on your use. I also forgot about its balance on a barricade, as someone else mentioned. It's certainly doable, just not, as I said about offhand shooting, ideal. I've used my DT in PRS matches and done well, but I would've done better with my TL3/MPA chassis, especially when you consider some stages have 10+ targets at a stage. In field matches, where I don't have barricade constraints, my DT has performed just as well as any of my other rifles. I regularly shoot the Sporting Rifle Match at Whittington Center and have used my DT several times. Each stage only has 6 targets, so my DT mags aren't an issue.

 

[PB&J.]

I lurv my Desert Tech, once you get used to the compactness and the rearward weight bias for offhand or supported positional shooting it is hard to go back to a traditional, front heavy configuration rifle, the DTA is absurdly compact and easy to manouevre with the shorter barrels.

Traditional configuration rifles definitely balance better on tripods/barricades.

The bullpup bolt feels a little awkward for me in the prone, but better than a traditional action in any other position.

Mags are the biggest weakness in the DTA.

The fit and finish on the metal components of the DTA is quite good, but the large plastic skins never join together perfectly and have dags around the edges which detracts a lot from the overall presentation. Even though the skins don't effect the function of the rifle, they can make the rifle look a bit messy if you get a poorly fitting set.

Mechanical accuracy I think you would be hard pressed to consistently pick which rifle shoots tighter groups. The DTA has a huge amount of clamped barrel shank and that has to account for something though. It is certainly extremely consistent with returning to previous POI when swapping barrels though. Both the DTA and AI are factory fitted with Lothar walther barrels.

The DTA is not light, but the A2 feels like a hunting rifle after lugging around the tank of an Accuracy International for a while.

For the things a DTA does well, no other rifle can do it. For the things a DTA doesn't do well, there are many viable alternatives out there to choose from.

I knew everything going in, but the compactness and ease and consistency of barrel changes is what sold me as no other available platform came close in this regard. I do not regret my decision at all.

 

[deersniper]

gun that is good for PRS, but also bombproof enough for end times

AI AT-X for sure

I have AI and 2 DTs

Love both. Desert tech has superior accuracy and barrel system

 

[deersniper]

Yea they are a little less than reliable in the long term without consistent cleaning very couple of hundred rounds. End of time aspect I would go with the regular trigger. Strictly comp I would do the ATX.

I have over 1000 on mine no issues yet

 

[hafejd30]

AIAT

 

[Kopfjager1]

AI AT-X for sure

I have AI and 2 DTs

Love both. Desert tech has superior accuracy and barrel system

Please elaborate, I've had my DT for 5 years now, and agree the repeatability and ease of caliber swaps is fantastic. I am 99% going to be selling my DT for an AXSR, but haven't read a whole lot of the repeatability of the AXSR. I haven't changed my zero for my 308 in 3 years, despite constantly swapping between it and the 6.5CM, and this is a large determining factor for me.

But the mag issues, only really seeing the issues with the 10 round SA mags, definitely inhibit the whole system. I really wish they would have gone with a double stack mag, really annoying having the mag bottom out and being restricted to 10 rounds (I sent a mag into MKM, to get a 2 round extension, and was told it couldn't be reliably done).

Though, running a truck axle of a barrel (1.25" straight, 26"-28" or longer) seriously increases the effectiveness of the system, something you can't do with other actions. Forget addon weights, add the weight to the barrel, it's only going to help with harmonics. My 28" suppressed DT is nearly the same length as an unsuppressed 26" conventional rifle. The weight of a heavy barrel like that (7-9 lbs) increases the balance exponentially. However, getting a 1.25" straight barrel spun up takes that much longer for a smith to order unless you find a blank, and DT barrels are 900-1400 compared to the 600-900 barrels of the AI AXSR/AXMC large tenon.

The action isn't terrible, it may take getting used to, but if you run it deliberately, it's great. There are certain situations where the placement of the bolt can impede operating it, such as non-shooting side shooting, low supported seating, or other awkward positions. Also manipulating the bolt can lead to coming off-target because of the mechanical advantage of the location (rear vs center), and the force to overcome the bolt unlocking is more than a custom action.

 

[brianf]

PRS aside as that is personal preference, comfort, looks etc

everything goes down sooner or later, just the way it is

the ability to order a part online and get it UPS next day air if wanted is one aspect of AI becoming so popular the last 10 years or so

im done sending anything back to a smith ever again

unless its a older hunting rifle i bough before i knew better or a family heirloom etc

that said, the AI family is miles ahead of DTA pertaining to fit, finish, smoothness of bolt, mags

i bought a DTA 308 short barrel (i think its a covert A2)

they are stupid short in length, which does change the balance a little. not good or bad just a little different

BUT they are not in the same league as my AI's

it does shoot really well, so the accuracy is there but the entire experience doesnt add up

i put 100-150 rounds though it and now its in the back of the safe until someone wants to see it

unless i am going to toss it in a backpack etc, i cannot envision me taking it out over the AI's

i keep thinking of selling it but i really dont sell rifles often so it hard for my dumbass to grasp lol

just my opinion...could be wrong

 

[Long Range 338]

I'm a huge fan of the AX series of rifles. That being said, the ATX release seems like a letdown in some ways. I'm really digging the Cadex stuff lately and after fondling the ATX and the STARS at SHOT Show I was super impressed with the Cadex with its improved adjustments. The weight and balance of the Cadex just felt better - of course that is sending ZERO rounds downrange and just doing show and tell.

The MPA and MDT stuff is great but only makes sense to me in a competition sense. If you want a robust "bombproof" system, the AI and Cadex stuff is designed and tested to withstand the rigors of combat. Something pieced together may not be up to the challenge.

 

[Hondo1]

I agree with posters above that the AI fit and finish beats DT by a fair margin but when it comes to practical use the DT for me is without peers. Hunting big game with an AI? I wouldn’t dream of it, I put a ton of miles on when hunting mule deer and elk. Coyotes out of the front seat of a jeep? Try to get your AI or any long heavy rifle into action before that dog is in the next zip code.
However for a day at the range my AI’s are very enjoyable. DT and PRS you are going to have a rough time.

 

[The Durk]

AI, and the comp trigger. I've been shooting that trigger for 2 competitions seasons, without cleaning (roughly 3,000 live fire and a solid 10-15,000 dry fires) not a single issue. I however don't run the light trigger spring, which may be problematic.

The AI's get even smoother and better with use. The AT-X is driven specifically by the competition market, and I would not hesitate to buy one. My AT goes just about everywhere with me, including deer and coyote season.

I've shot Cadex and they're nice, but if I'm within $1,000 of an AI, I'd just rather save a few more paychecks up and get an AI.

MPA and MDT chassis are interesting, I've practiced with a few of my buddies setups, but they just aren't for me.

I have 0 experience with DT, and I haven't seen a single one hear in the North East.

 

[deersniper]

Please elaborate, I've had my DT for 5 years now, and agree the repeatability and ease of caliber swaps is fantastic. I am 99% going to be selling my DT for an AXSR, but haven't read a whole lot of the repeatability of the AXSR

Accuracy seems to be a tenth or 2 better with the DT IME

DT has been dead nuts for me when removing barrel and reinstalling and different barrels zero stays the same. AI hasn’t been that consistent IME

 

[deersniper]

I agree with posters above that the AI fit and finish beats DT by a fair margin but when it comes to practical use the DT for me is without peers. Hunting big game with an AI? I wouldn’t dream of it, I put a ton of miles on when hunting mule deer and elk. Coyotes out of the front seat of a jeep? Try to get your AI or any long heavy rifle into action before that dog is in the next zip code.
However for a day at the range my AI’s are very enjoyable. DT and PRS you are going to have a rough time.

All true. Long barrel AI and vehicle or equipment isn’t fun. 18” and can is definitely manageable will be better when the folder comes out.

DT is easier to shoot off hand IME. the weight is back and easier to handle for long periods.

You won’t be competitive in a PRS match with DT. Fun yes. But bottom of the pack finishes.

Not mine :

 

[Jmkjr87]

I got a impact 737R and MDT ACC. so that's my vote, AI can suck it

 

[Hondo1]

I got a impact 737R and MDT ACC. so that's my vote, AI can suck it

Impact’s are cute but they’ll never be an AI.

 

[Jmkjr87]

Impact’s are cute but they’ll never be an AI.

He asked about PRS, impact is the most commonly used action in prs where as AI not so much, I would dare to say that any man willing to run a AI would also suck a pecker. Not in all cases, but most!!

 

[Hondo1]

You sure are fixated on sucking and peckers.

 

[Hondo1]

He asked about PRS, impact is the most commonly used action in prs where as AI not so much, I would dare to say that any man willing to run a AI would also suck a pecker. Not in all cases, but most!!

Pure PRS I would tend to agree though.

 

[Jmkjr87]

My PRS rig Is for prs only. In the event of the "end times" im not humping a 22 pound rifle on my back while carrying another semi auto, so OP builds a PRS gun or a light Weight field gun, I personally think u ain't gonna do both

 

[brianf]

My PRS rig Is for prs only. In the event of the "end times" im not humping a 22 pound rifle on my back while carrying another semi auto, so OP builds a PRS gun or a light Weight field gun, I personally think u ain't gonna do both

Forgot to add…end of days rifle

A ruger 10-22 with a few bricks of ammo.

Carrying 2-3000 rounds and a 5 pound rifle thats good for small game and head shots (like the isrealies do) is much better than 20 pound rifle and 150 rounds.

 

[st1650]

The answer is obviously get both. Get a used DTA-A1 (ideally with the RRS ARCA plate) and the AI AT-X as they serve different purpose.
Is it true that the DTA will balance really well with a truck axle contour and are much easier to move with than a 26in+ barricade bench rest rifle.

 

[Long Range 338]

The answer is obviously get both.

I like your style

 

[Long Range 338]

Forgot to add…end of days rifle

A ruger 10-22 with a few bricks of ammo.

Carrying 2-3000 rounds and a 5 pound rifle thats good for small game and head shots (like the isrealies do) is much better than 20 pound rifle and 150 rounds.

I've heard this before and it always makes me ponder but in the end I would choose a 223. I'm not beating you up at all but asking in all seriousness, are you supposing you will spend more time hunting small game than engaged in exchanges of gunfire? Once any element of surprise is lost it seems like the good old 22 is going to put you at a real disadvantage... I'm very remote and assume the 22 is going to be excellent for keeping a low profile and feeding oneself. I just can't imagine being handicapped with ONLY the 22.

 

[st1650]

I like your style

Every time I think about selling my DTA to fund my future AT-X ... I just go and shoot it and even with the shitty mag, the heavier bolt lift and my hatred for the company and its service ... I love shooting this gun and it absolutely shoots. I'll never sell it.

 

[brianf]

I've heard this before and it always makes me ponder but in the end I would choose a 223. I'm not beating you up at all but asking in all seriousness, are you supposing you will spend more time hunting small game than engaged in exchanges of gunfire? Once any element of surprise is lost it seems like the good old 22 is going to put you at a real disadvantage... I'm very remote and assume the 22 is going to be excellent for keeping a low profile and feeding oneself. I just can't imagine being handicapped with ONLY the 22.

LR338 thanks for the reply but

...sorry OP i dont want to derail .. unless you want to

 

[Jmkjr87]

Everybody should have a 22 with couple thousand rounds of ammo cuz ur kid can carry it. Also I think the premise of a do it all zombie gun/ PRS rig isn't going to work. It's gonna suck for a end times rifle and suck as a PRS rig. Jack of all trades, master of none. Build 2 different guns

 

[Terry Cross]

Forgot to add…end of days rifle

A ruger 10-22 with a few bricks of ammo.

Carrying 2-3000 rounds and a 5 pound rifle thats good for small game and head shots (like the isrealies do) is much better than 20 pound rifle and 150 rounds.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
This.

Put together 2 or 3 Ruger 10-22 with suppressor on each. Add bolt lock for single shot ability. Add rugged LPVO or even ACOG. Keep one handy and cache one or two others "off property" along with 1K ammo. Especially in geography like the South and much of the East where woodlands are still the dominating landscape this is a much smarter option than a long range bolt gun.

./

 

[deersniper]

My PRS rig Is for prs only. In the event of the "end times" im not humping a 22 pound rifle on my back while carrying another semi auto, so OP builds a PRS gun or a light Weight field gun, I personally think u ain't gonna do both

If we get to walking around Im dead anyway.

End of the world rifle still nice in the house or vehicle

 

[matleez]

Every time I think about selling my DTA to fund my future AT-X ... I just go and shoot it and even with the shitty mag, the heavier bolt lift and my hatred for the company and its service ... I love shooting this gun and it absolutely shoots. I'll never sell it.

Company and service is godawful, but they make badass things.

 

[deersniper]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
This.

Put together 2 or 3 Ruger 10-22 with suppressor on each. Add bolt lock for single shot ability. Add rugged LPVO or even ACOG. Keep one handy and cache one or two others "off property" along with 1K ammo. Especially in geography like the South and much of the East where woodlands are still the dominating landscape this is a much smarter option than a long range bolt gun.

./

AR with 22 kit
Might be more versatile ?

 

[Jmkjr87]

AR with 22 kit
Might be more versatile ?

No

 

[hafejd30]

All you guys fighting and sucking at life with your AI’s, DT and Cadex

Meanwhile I’ll be saving the world with my Papoose

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have 4 AI's and as you can tell thats my preference I have shot a DT and they are great rifles but I just don't care for them and getting barrel is more expensive then an AI.. The best advice is get what you want and don't look back!!

 

[matleez]

I have 4 AI's and as you can tell thats my preference I have shot a DT and they are great rifles but I just don't care for them and getting barrel is more expensive then an AI.. The best advice is get what you want and don't look back!!

Just a note on this. If you have a heavy varmint barrel it will work for a DT. Its a 1.25 shank for 5 inches. They are threaed the same as an R700 +/- .010 on headspace. Just had 2 spun up on HV barrels..so cost was more "normal" in relation to other stuff. Just used current extensions.

 

[WATERWALKER]

In an apocalyptic scenario, I’d much rather have a suppressed AR w/ a quality LPVO. I just can’t imagine hiding out in a bunker, burned out building, etc & obsessing over the perfect load, etc.

A quality rifle & a bunch of mags will take you a long way. Besides, 5.56 / .223 will be everywhere.

 

[The Durk]

All you guys fighting and sucking at life with your AI’s, DT and Cadex

Meanwhile I’ll be saving the world with my Papoose

Never heard of her.

Anyway, 95% of forum members couldn’t hump it 5 miles with a Glock 19, let alone an AR with combat load.

End of the world gun? Definitely AI.

End of the night at a gay night club? MDT.

 

[Terry Cross]

AR with 22 kit
Might be more versatile ?

Just my own opinion but my vote would be No.

The AR kits are rattling a 22 LR down a .224 bore. Decent enough accuracy for training close gun handling with your AR but most would not have accuracy for squirrel heads or reliable shots at distance.

The 10/22 is super light, super handy, plenty accurate, extremely simple design and parts plus can be modified to lock the bolt shut.
Any large child, adolescent, female or injury limited person can still handle one effectively because of the size and weight.

They are inexpensive enough justify standalone purchase of 1 or 2 or 3 and rig up with spare mags.
I would keep my ARs spread around and handy for doing AR shit if needed.

These preferences are going to be vary widely depending on personal abilities, beliefs and comfort zones.

Sorry about derailing the OP's thread.

./

 

[MarinePMI]

I think 10/22's in the eastern part of the country make sense. Lots of trees and rolling terrain. Ranges are fairly short, and local veg helps dampen/misdirect audible muzzle signature.

Out west...not so much. Ranges are just too long, and in a lot of places there just isn't a lot of cover. I'd opt for something a little bigger than a .22 out west unless you're in a city or suburbia.

But, this is all mental masturbation, so my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

Oh, and AI (to stay on topic).

 

[Mute]

canezach's experience with AI and DT platforms pretty much mirrors my own. I like the DT well enough, but I'd pick the AI over it every time. Bullpup is more or less a love it or hate it for most. I did well enough with the DT, but overall, the AI felt better in every way. If I were only going to get just one bolt gun, I'd opt for a AI AXMC or AXSR. If I didn't care about going up to the longer calibers, I'd be quite alright with a short action AX.

 

[_shawn_]

Ai AT in an mpa chassis. Tune the factory trigger to your liking and you have the best of all worlds. Pick up a 223 bolt and barrel from bugholes and you have hands down the best rifle available. Mine is 100% repeatable when I'm changing barrels as long as I put everything together correctly( I have indicator marks on the barrels and receiver so everything goes back exactly every time). My apps have the offsets preset in the app so all I do is change profiles for calibers. I have 308, 6.5 creed, 6 creed, 6 bra, and I'm about to order the 223 barrel. I already have the bolt

 

[MDT_Josh]

Never heard of her.

Anyway, 95% of forum members couldn’t hump it 5 miles with a Glock 19, let alone an AR with combat load.

End of the world gun? Definitely AI.

End of the night at a gay night club? MDT.

I mean, you're probably not wrong about the fitness of most people preparing for a SHTF situation, but damn dude, why do you have to call us out like that?!

To answer the original post though:
- Impact 737R (or similar)
- 6.5CM in a 22" Barrel
- MDT XRS with enclosed forend or ACC with a folder and maybe a forend trim?
- Some optic in the 3-25x range would be ideal (and the lighter the better)
- Overbuild everything else that you can (scope rings, muzzle devices, etc.)

- Josh