Advanced Marksmanship Alternatives to prone for long range - Disabled shooter

[Danco411]

Hey guys I hope this is in the right place to post this. My shooting partner had back surgery for degenerative spine disease. He has a ton of metal on his back and has limited mobility. He's a good shooter and we shoot out to 1k at an UKD steel range. He is also hard headed and insists on shooting prone but pays dearly for it for days after a couple hours on the range. Any suggestions about an alternative shooting position for him where he can improve skills and fundamentals? I have a manfrotto tripod with a hog saddle. We also have one of those take down swivel contraptions he uses for Coyotes. I think anything that keeps him vertical will help. Any advice, especially coming from the hide will help...especially with his head since he is kinda hard core. tips, tricks things to work on. Thanks.

 

[Dan Newberry]

What we have done with several shooters who have back/neck issues is this:

Have them lay down more in the "L" shape to the rifle (not straight behind it like the ankle-kickers want you to)...

This allows the shooter to get onto the scope without as much rearward bending of the neck.

Caveats: Make sure the rifle's butt plate is planted in a sturdy place at the shoulder. Rifles which recoil less will be easier to handle this way. Get a muzzle brake... this will cut half the recoil off the rifle. Even if he says it's not recoiling much now, cutting the recoil even more will help him keep the glass on the target after the shot lets go... spotting your ground impacts for missed shots is pretty important (and often overlooked by many folks).

We had a match last year and one of the better shooters was laying in the "L" pattern behind his rifle. Every time he'd come to the line, two other shooters from the tacti-cool crowd were making the "L" sign for "loser" on their foreheads... it was pretty rude, actually. But guess what? The "L" shooter won the doggone match, and easily trounced the ankle-kickers.

So where there's a will, there's a way. If he doesen't have a threaded muzzle, I can highly recommend these clamp on brakes. Muzzle Brakes by Kahntrol Solutions | No Gunsmithing Muzzle Brakes, Clamp On or Threaded Tell Jeremy that Dan at bangsteel sent you.

 

[catswithguns]

Danco,

Tell your buddy I can sympathize with him completely. I cannot lay on my stomach at all. It really pisses you off, when the things that you used to be able to do without a thought are now impossible. I shoot off my 4 wheeler with a tripod or off a bench. I can shoot sitting, but it takes me a while to get into that position. Hope your friend can find a way to deal with his hardheadedness, it is hard for me. Mr. Newberry, thanks for the kind words for those of us who have to surrender to the effects of time.

 

[George63]

Danco,

I shoot off my 4 wheeler with a tripod or off a bench. .

may want to check on the legality of this with the DNR - they do not distinguish between range shooting / hunting and that is shooting from a motor vehicle - a hard ass warden may take the 4 wheeler and gun regardless your condition and it would be your problem to get the judge to give them back - a 2 foot move onto a folding chair completely changes the legality

 

[kraigWY]

In HP setting rapid if my best position. That doesn't only apply to HP, it works in Hunting and sighting in rifles. I just plain shoot better in the setting positions. There are three types depending on your build, cross legged, cross ankle, and opened legged. You need with each to see what works best for you. Few times while hunting have I been able to get a prone position and still able to see the critter. Setting gets you higher, kneeling higher yet.

Having said that, my wife is in the same condition. She broke her back while deployed, she has three rods between her shoulder blades. She can't lay on her stomach, let alone shoot prone.

So she thought. I like the cocked leg method of prone, but I use a sling, not bipods or rest. I figured I could work my wife into such a position and I did. We expanded on the cocked leg position a bit, she is actually shooting on her side.

What your friend needs is a good coach who understands disabilities. As Cpt Edward Crossman says, there are few disabilities in shooting that cant be overcome by a good coach.

Might want to look into a CMP GSM Clinic taught by a CMP Master Instructor. Explain your problem and see what happens. I'd be willing to bet I could do it if your friend was in Wyoming, but I can't without watching him in his position.

Again Cpt Edward Crossman says, there are few disabilities in shooting that cant be overcome, and as Gary Anderson says, there are no hopeless shooter.

 

[Danco411]

Thanks so very much for the advice gentleman. All good tips and exactly what we are looking for. Appreciate it greatly!

 

[AZ.noob]

What we have done with several shooters who have back/neck issues is this:

Have them lay down more in the "L" shape to the rifle (not straight behind it like the ankle-kickers want you to)...

This allows the shooter to get onto the scope without as much rearward bending of the neck.

Caveats: Make sure the rifle's butt plate is planted in a sturdy place at the shoulder. Rifles which recoil less will be easier to handle this way. Get a muzzle brake...

Thanks for the tips Dan
I've had back surgeries very similar to Danco's friend, and I too pay dearly for it.
I'm soon to compete in my first F/TR match (was nudged into it, long story... ask me about it some other time LOL)... no brakes in F-class of course. Beyond what you've recommended in your above post, is there anything else I can do to manage recoil in the 'L' position? Shooting a 13# rifle in 308, so I know I can ballast it some (18# is max IIRC)

 

[Dan Newberry]

Thanks for the tips Dan
I've had back surgeries very similar to Danco's friend, and I too pay dearly for it.
I'm soon to compete in my first F/TR match (was nudged into it, long story... ask me about it some other time LOL)... no brakes in F-class of course. Beyond what you've recommended in your above post, is there anything else I can do to manage recoil in the 'L' position? Shooting a 13# rifle in 308, so I know I can ballast it some (18# is max IIRC)

Installing a muzzle brake, if permitted in the comps you'll be shooting in, can be a real asset to mitigating recoil. I've used the clamp on brakes from Kahntrol solutions with great results. I think the web address is kahntrol.com

 

[Northman623]

How about the old supine positions.Redirect Notice

 

[majohnson2]

It's unfortunate that there are those of of that can't get into a prone position. My neck doesn't have enough range of motion. Plus by placing my upper body weight on my arms causes muscle spasms because of nerve damage from being impinged for so long. I find the only way I can get through a day of shooting is using a chair. I've thought about trying the tripod with a hog saddle, but it's expensive and might not work.

If you other shooter are recoil sensitive brakes are great. I have them on my 6.5CM and 308, without one my day would be very short. Not all brakes are as effective, so do some research before making a choice.

 

[Bluejazz]

Stoney Point stick with polecat kicker.
Took my mule deer last fall at 841 yards while sitting on 30 degree rock slide.
Very stable platform for shooting.
Use a sling on the rifle and grab the front of sling and the point where the rifle rests in the sticks and squeeze to get even more stable.

 

[Lafayette]

I think in all practical applications the tripod / saddle combination will be the most appropriate aid. The tripod can also be used as a crutch to help him move into and out of the firing position.

 

[medic727]

I shot with someone at a match who also had a "surgically repaired" back. One of the things that worked really well was a firm, foam wedge. It ran length-wise, from midline out almost to the armpit on his triggee side. By being able to relax and letting the foam support his upper body he was not straining to hold position. As flat as we try to get, there is always a "roll" to our upper body. There's where that foam support shines.

 

[lath]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, for this discussion. I have a condition in my neck and upper back that won't let me lay prone...If I do I just watch the ants go by... I have a table with folding legs that I made but it's almost like a "ball and chain"...I'm looking for alternatives and stumbled on this. Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Unknown]

My one handed jujutsu instructor taught me early on that there are few disabilities that can't be dealt with in some fashion. I used to get a real kick out of watching newbies thinking they would best the one handed guy after he bounced them off the mat 2-3 times. Rather than grab the lapel and sleeve of the opponent, he would grab the lapel, and stick the stub of the arm without a hand up the sleeve of the newbie.

The newbie would be trying to figure how to get my instructors stub out of his sleeve, and by the time he realized the stub wasn't coming out, he was already being launched toward the mat. Every damned time! And this was even AFTER I warned them to NOT think of him as disabled, or give him any slack.

And when he would punch you with the stub, it was like being stabbed with the end of a broomstick...geezus I used to hate that.

My point is that determination can help overcome many disabilities very effectively.