Although 22's are not a viable self defense round....

[AP2020]

I still would NOT want to get shot with one. In fact, if I recall correctly the "lowly" 22 has accounted for a significantly large number of deaths and murders over the years.

Back in the 1990's, I remember a work associate whose brother had accidently shot his buddy with a Ruger Mark II/III 22 pistol. They were both sitting on the couch watching TV, his brother picked up the 22 pistol, pointed at his buddy's side, pulled the trigger. His buddy was conscious for about a minute. The squad arrived within minutes, but by that time his buddy had bled internally, and succumbed to his wound before he could be transported to the hospital. Sobering indeed....

 

[Merlin O]

I am sorry that you posted this. I see no value.

Sorry.

 

[natdscott]

Sorry.

Are you?

 

[voytek198]

Wtf did I just read.

 

[b6graham]

they kill plenty of coyotes and deer every year

but yeah...wtf is this shit

 

[Gustav7]

I think it’s important to note that .22’s are not recommended for self defense because they lack stopping power, NOT because they lack lethality. Lethality and stopping power are not directly linked.

Also, while everyone is correct this is a somber post, I don’t have a problem with it. Nothing wrong with this topic lol.

 

[ThreeBravo]

I think it’s important to note that .22’s are not recommended for self defense because they lack stopping power, NOT because they lack lethality. Lethality and stopping power are not directly linked.

Also, while everyone is correct this is a somber post, I don’t have a problem with it. Nothing wrong with this topic lol.

Can I ask what unit of measurement you use to quantify stopping power?

 

[Gustav7]

Never said I used a unit of measurement.

But I guess if you were to pick one, energy ft/lbs could be used. I never said I had a specific measurement or anything, my comment was based in anecdotal theory

Anecdotally you could draw from experiences of hunting, law enforcement and ballistics gel testing to show what defines "stopping power".

I'm not trying to argue one of those .40 vs 9mm arguments... where they show that .40sw has more stopping power on paper.

But .22 obviously lacks the energy behind it to create large wound channels, "shock" the target, creating excess damage to tissue and nerves other than the actual bullet path, etc.

Personally I've witnessed the difference in "stopping power" between smaller and larger rounds many times. Shoot a fat ground hog with a hollow point .22 and often it keeps running until it bleeds out. Shoot it with a .223 varmint bullet and the fucker explodes.

Watched a dude overseas get basically cut in half with M855 cause he wouldn't stop... Not so much with 7.62...

 

[Basher]

Watched a dude overseas get basically cut in half with M855 cause he wouldn't stop... Not so much with 7.62...

Yet if you crunch the numbers, 7.62 has more energy (using ft/lb) than an M855 does. Bullet construction also plays a large role in the terminal ballistics of a specific projectile. A heavier, faster FMJ would have more energy than a lighter, slower JHP, but if the FMJ just passes right through, it didn't use much of its energy very effectively, did it? Conversely, if the lighter, slower JHP stops in the target, then it deposited all of its energy into the target. Simply stating that one projectile has more energy than another doesn't show the entire picture. How much of that energy is absorbed by the target is a much more reliable metric for judging effective "stopping power," but because every single projectile will behave differently upon striking the target, the whole "stopping power" discussion is quite difficult to have with an equal level of standardization or accuracy. Modern bullet construction strives to be as efficient as possible for it's given role, but no two projectiles are exactly alike, and no two targets (living creatures, two legs or more) will behave the same.

Anyway, back to the OP. Interesting little video, but re-using the block so many times may have had an effect on some things. Additionally, when shooting in an urban environment like what you show with multiple occupied structures around, I'm not sure I'd consider a wooden shed to be an effective backstop. I'm also positive I would have stopped (if I'd even started!) the testing when the one bullet left the block and went unaccounted for... But maybe that's just me.

 

[Gustav7]

Yet if you crunch the numbers, 7.62 has more energy (using ft/lb) than an M855 does. Bullet construction also plays a large role in the terminal ballistics of a specific projectile. A heavier, faster FMJ would have more energy than a lighter, slower JHP, but if the FMJ just passes right through, it didn't use much of its energy very effectively, did it? Conversely, if the lighter, slower JHP stops in the target, then it deposited all of its energy into the target. Simply stating that one projectile has more energy than another doesn't show the entire picture. How much of that energy is absorbed by the target is a much more reliable metric for judging effective "stopping power," but because every single projectile will behave differently upon striking the target, the whole "stopping power" discussion is quite difficult to have with an equal level of standardization or accuracy. Modern bullet construction strives to be as efficient as possible for it's given role, but no two projectiles are exactly alike, and no two targets (living creatures, two legs or more) will behave the same.

Philosophically I agree with you... but to actually argue that .22 is a good defensive round seems a tad off? And since an entire physics lesson is inefficient to people who are getting CCW's or learning about guns, it's much easy to communicate that, while lethal, a .22 is not a formidable defensive caliber. Which is all I was trying to say, about why it does not get recommended as such. That all being said, I'd still take a .22 over nothing lol.

I digress...sorry for the derail OP

 

[CountryShooter]

Lethality- the person dies at some point.
Stopping Power- the person ceased their attack against you right now.

 

[Basher]

Philosophically I agree with you... but to actually argue that .22 is a good defensive round seems a tad off? And since an entire physics lesson is inefficient to people who are getting CCW's or learning about guns, it's much easy to communicate that, while lethal, a .22 is not a formidable defensive caliber. Which is all I was trying to say, about why it does not get recommended as such. That all being said, I'd still take a .22 over nothing lol.

I digress...sorry for the derail OP

Oh, I wasn't advocating that people carry a .22LR as a defensive weapon at all, haha. Just that there are more factors to the equation of "stopping power" than meets the eye. I do agree, however, that a .22 beats a sharp stick any day of the week!

And above all: shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. A well-placed .22 will do the job far better than a glancing shot with a .50AE! And to get us somewhat back on track, I'll stop now.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Let's see what can be agreed on. The .22 is not a good self defense cartridge. The .22 can be lethal. If all you have is a .22 use it. If you are going to carry a .22 for SD, make sure the .22 is reliable with your chosen ammo. Done. No further discussion is necessary.

I've been reading this stuff for over six decades. It started with .30-06 vs .270, .30-06 vs. .308, .38 vs. .45ACP, .357 M vs. .45 ACP ad nauseam. This stuff generally appears when there is nothing interesting enough in the industry to provide good copy. Currently the .22 RF part of the industry shows no lack of innovation, participation, competition, etc. There is so much new with the rimfires that if you are away for a week its going to take some catching up. Enjoy it while you got it.

As for the OP https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1191271 Some people just don't get it.

 

[Ravenworks]

There's a lot of dead guys planted in a cemetery because of 22's.
Been killing hogs at the farm every Thanksgiving using a 22 short.

 

[JaoeyP]

I feel dumber for having read this. Are you not getting enough air breathing through your nose?

 

[Old_Red]

A 22 doesn't have much knock down power, but back in the early 60's I watched a man drop 45 head of 1,000 pound steers using a Remington Model 24 and 241 shooting 22 shorts without a miss or steer failing to fall. The shots were made form a point 8 feet above the cattle at ranges from 4 feet to 45 yards.

That's all he did 5 or 6 hours a day in Wilson's Packing Plant in Oklahoma City. Not a job I would want to do day after day. I don't have a problem killing things to eat, but a 800 a day would get old pretty soon.

If you miss a vital point on what your trying to kill a man can't carry a gun big enough to stop anything as fast as 22 short in the brain stem where the guy a Wilson was putting bullets in those steers.

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final." - Wyatt Earp

 

[Matches Malone]

A 22 doesn't have much knock down power, but back in the early 60's I watched a man drop 45 head of 1,000 pound steers using a Remington Model 24 and 241 shooting 22 shorts without a miss or steer failing to fall. The shots were made form a point 8 feet above the cattle at ranges from 4 feet to 45 yards.

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final." - Wyatt Earp

Assassinating a cow, and shooting the head of a moving target that probably also has a gun is two different things. This is why most people train to body shots.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

People will use what they are comfortable with. Many require a 45acp others a 9mm, then pockets start. It matters little what you use as long as placement is correct. The little 22LR is not considered a gun-fighting tool by many, however there are those who carry them w/o giving it a single thought.

 

[jakelly]

Why is anyone giving the OP guff? It’s an interesting piece of data. I learned something. I wouldn’t have thought stingers would still be supersonic out of a suppressed pistol. I also was surprised at how deeply some of those much weaker rounds penetrated.

Anyway, back to the OP. Interesting little video, but re-using the block so many times may have had an effect on some things. Additionally, when shooting in an urban environment like what you show with multiple occupied structures around, I'm not sure I'd consider a wooden shed to be an effective backstop. I'm also positive I would have stopped (if I'd even started!) the testing when the one bullet left the block and went unaccounted for... But maybe that's just me.

Had the same thought regarding the gel. Regarding your other thought, dude made me cringe every time he pulled the trigger.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Why is anyone giving the OP guff?

Add to that the question how many that are answering have been in a hand gun, gunfight?
Also it's interesting to see what is an what is not SS in ones own firearms vs others. I have a few 22lrs that a bud has as well. Depending temp mine will be SS with certain ammo while his shooting the same will not, an his will be while mine is not. It matters little what other guns do, or don't do,...know yours.

 

[JoshPutman]

Well, 45ACP is the Lord's caliber, so, this thread can go ahead and get locked, as nothing more needs said.