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Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

G

Glennp

Private
Minuteman
Oct 5, 2009
32
0
35
Peoples Democratic Republic of New Germany (NJ)
#1
Just starting reloading for my STOCK remington 700 varmint in .308. Its only mod is an H-S precision stock. I have a 18x buschnell scope with burris rings and an EGW 20moa picatinny rail.

Anyways, I mostly shoot at 100 yards. I so far with a 5 round group acheived .18MOA but only ONCE... so far. At 600 a got .45moa in the wind with factory hornady TAP ammo.

Anyways, lately I have been playing around with loads. Im averaging .6moa or so, maybe a bit less, around .5 but I have broken below that on a very few occasion (all with 5 round groups).

So, here I am driving myself crazy trying to replicate another .18MOA group at 100 yards...
Am I being retarded? What should be my standard? I know I sound silly asking this but what should I be happy with?


Thanks,
Glenn
 
#2
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glennp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So, here I am driving myself crazy trying to replicate another .18MOA group at 100 yards...
Am I being retarded? What should be my standard? I know I sound silly asking this but what should I be happy with?

Thanks,
Glenn </div></div>

Just keep giving yourself words of encouragement and I'm sure you will get it again. Set your standard to .1MOA and settle for nothing less.
 
#4
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

Words of wisdom. If you set your goal at .10 and are not happy with anything more, you are destined to be unhappy a whole bunch. As I have stated many times before, there are a lot more sub-half rifles and shooters on the inter-net than there are on the range.
 
#5
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Words of wisdom. If you set your goal at .10 and are not happy with anything more, you are destined to be unhappy a whole bunch. As I have stated many times before, <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">there are a lot more sub-half rifles and shooters on the inter-net than there are on the range.</span></span> </div></div>

1000+. Right on. Somtimes you have to stop and look to see if you are chasing your own tail....
 
#6
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

i'd settle for .6 moa from a bone stock factory rig any day of the week. .10 moa consistently out to 400+? only with a rail gun or a cozy bench mounted shooting rest. if that's the game you want to play, head over to benchrest central for info. here on the hide we stick to real world marksmanship (at least some of us do).
 
#7
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

Thanks for the good words guys. Making me feel a little less crazy
laugh.gif


I'm not really frustrated (although it may seem as if I am). I think its just that I have nothing to compare to (the only people around here that shoot "high power" shoot AR15s....)
 
#8
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Words of wisdom. If you set your goal at .10 and are not happy with anything more, you are destined to be unhappy a whole bunch. As I have stated many times before, <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">there are a lot more sub-half rifles and shooters on the inter-net than there are on the range.</span></span> </div></div>

1000+. Right on. Somtimes you have to stop and look to see if you are chasing your own tail.... </div></div>


Can you get that on a T-shirt for me.... Well said
 
#9
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

If you're shooting benchrest, you need to do better than .25 MOA and that isn't gonna happen consistently enough with your stock rifle. For tactical shooting, consistent .5-.75 MOA from a stock rifle will get the job done. It's fun to keep trying for better, but don't get stressed about it.
 
#10
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

"Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?"

With a factory barrel, a non-trued action in a factory stock shooting off-the-shelf bullets? Yeah. That would be nice but it ain't gonna happen.
 
#13
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

If I get a factory gun that will shoot a minute every time I take it out for a ride I am a happy camper.

I shot bench rest years ago, I understand how it is to shoot .250s "all day long" and "any day"
 
#14
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

Yes I'd be much happier to shoot .5 moa from 100y to 1000y than to shoot .18 moa at 100y. I do shot at 100y from time to time mostly with my .22lr, or my 30-30 at a deer. I do fell good when there all touching at any distance.
 
#15
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 81STFACP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I get a factory gun that will shoot a minute every time I take it out for a ride I am a happy camper.

I shot bench rest years ago, I understand how it is to shoot .250s "all day long" and "any day" </div></div>


This man speaks the truth! +1 <span style="text-decoration: underline">Everytime is the key word here.</span>
Once I started counting every round fired from the rifle things changed. Here and elsewhere it makes me chuckle when there is a pic of a 5 rd group and they discount a flyer and only count 4 holes and call it good. If the bullet exited the rifle in which you shot, it ought to count.
 
#16
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

You can tune the trigger on your own. If you can bed the action you'll get a little more out of it. Handloading and finding a good load will probably help more than any one thing. Try shooting the lightest bullet you can for the range you are shooting. With the things I have mentioned 1/4" at 100 is possible 90% of the time.

Good luck
 
#17
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glennp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just starting reloading for my STOCK remington 700 varmint in .308. Its only mod is an H-S precision stock. I have a 18x buschnell scope with burris rings and an EGW 20moa picatinny rail.

Anyways, I mostly shoot at 100 yards. I so far with a 5 round group acheived .18MOA but only ONCE... so far. At 600 a got .45moa in the wind with factory hornady TAP ammo.

Anyways, lately I have been playing around with loads. Im averaging .6moa or so, maybe a bit less, around .5 but I have broken below that on a very few occasion (all with 5 round groups).

So, here I am driving myself crazy trying to replicate another .18MOA group at 100 yards...
Am I being retarded? What should be my standard? I know I sound silly asking this but what should I be happy with?


Thanks,
Glenn </div></div>


I've never heard of anyone getting groups like that from a factory Remingtion. I would just leave it alone and shoot it.
 
#19
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glennp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just starting reloading for my STOCK remington 700 varmint in .308. Its only mod is an H-S precision stock. I have a 18x buschnell scope with burris rings and an EGW 20moa picatinny rail.

Anyways, I mostly shoot at 100 yards. I so far with a 5 round group acheived .18MOA but only ONCE... so far. At 600 a got .45moa in the wind with factory hornady TAP ammo.

Anyways, lately I have been playing around with loads. Im averaging .6moa or so, maybe a bit less, around .5 but I have broken below that on a very few occasion (all with 5 round groups).

So, here I am driving myself crazy trying to replicate another .18MOA group at 100 yards...
Am I being retarded? What should be my standard? I know I sound silly asking this but what should I be happy with?


Thanks,
Glenn </div></div>


I've never heard of anyone getting groups like that from a factory Remingtion. I would just leave it alone and shoot it. </div></div>

Im sure they would suprise a lot of people when placed in capable hands
 
#20
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

I go to the range and on a superb day I shoot .25 MOA.

ON a crappy day I shoot 1MOA - which is generally 10-15x better than 99% of the people on the range that day.

Then I shoot at 600 yards and I shoot a 3.25" group, that's .5MOA at 600 yards - I am pleased.

Don't overdrive yourself, go for first shot placement now, forget the groups - that just proves the rifle and you together can do it.

IT validates your load is good at 100 yards, but how will it perform at 600 yards?

Get a first shot within 6" at 600 yards - challenge yourself.:)
 
#21
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

This is an interesting topic that I've been struggling with a lot lately. I've been in the midst of a heinous load development session to work up an accurate LR load for my REM 700 SPS-T and I feel like I've been chasing my tail for two weeks now trying to get that perfect one-hole group. I've flirted with it at times and if I could count just 4 shots instead of 5, I'd have a lot of them already. But that one flyer is still <span style="text-decoration: line-through">probably </span>me and not the load or the rifle.

Anyway, I had an epiphany before my last range session yesterday. I was getting frustrated that all I was doing was load development and not shooting to become a better shooter. I had to re-evaluate what my ultimate goal was and that really refocused what I was doing. I remembered my ultimate goal for my handloads and my rifle was to be able to accurately shoot steel at long range and compete in the occasional Tactical or F-class match, and some occasional big game hunting - and overall have fun doing it. Chasing that sub .5 MOA group just wasn't all that much fun anymore. However, I found some loads that are fairly consistantly hitting around .6-.75 inches at 100 yds. And in some very limited trials, have held that <3/4 MOA out to 400 yds.

If I can hold 3/4 MOA or less out to 1000 yds - I should be able to hit a steel siloheutte. Is that good enough? HELL YEAH!

So I think I will be more productive shooting my .6 MOA factory rifle at range under actual field conditions rather than continuing to chase that elusive .25 inch group on the bench at 100yds. I have no aspirations to be a BR or NRA Hi-power competitor (not that there's anything wrong with those disciplines). If the Mil spec accuracy the $7000 M24 system is supposed to be .5 MOA with M118LR ammo - I'm tickled shitless that I'm getting as close as I am to that with a <$1000 rifle and scope together.
 
#22
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

I think you're just going to drive yourself nuts trying to get a stock rifle to shoot 1/4 moa time after time. I prefer to set myself realistic goals that are achievable. After you meet a goal, then you can step it up another notch. 1/4moa 5 shot groups on a stock rifle are VERY difficult. I myself have gotten the occasional .1moa group from a stock Savage, and even with that same Savage that's been worked on now. Consistently I can hover in the 1/2-3/4moa range. The loads i'm working on now (208gr Amax @ ~2600fps) shoot ok at 100, but start to shine from there. This past Sunday I was at a match where I shot a 1.1" 300 yard group, 4" 400 yard, lousy 500 (something about the berm there, can't get a good position), 6" 600yard, and 4.75" 700 yard group.

I think you need to settle on a good load, and then just start to shoot. I would set your goal at shooting 3/4 or 1/2 (if you want to go that low), and just worry about shooting, and having a good time. If you aren't having a good time because you're beating yourself up about group size, then you are going to get frustrated, and go crazy.

If you judge your shooting based off groups that are posted on the net, don't worry yourself silly, I can guarantee you that most of the tiny shot groups that are posted are seldom, if ever, repeated by the owner. Granted there are some shooters on here that'll post a 5x5 that'll knock your socks off, but a greater majority can't. I have to admit i've been guilty of the "look at my tiny group, aren't I great" crowd.

One more thing to remember, group shooting doesn't mean anything when you are hunting. That first, and likely ONLY shot, is the one that counts. Having a rifle that'll consistently shoot closely to the point of aim is the name of the game that merely extends your maximum range. Currently, I know my dope and hit probability to 700 yards, that's my maximum effective range for this coming deer season. Around here, if I see a deer that far away, i'll be surprised, but if I do, you bet your backside i'm going to shoot it. And my 208 amax's will have more than enough steam to knock the life out of it at that range.

Branden
 
#23
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

I think you should be content with that MOA accuracy, just work on repeatibility of that accuracy and you are good to go. What are you exactly trying to accomplish, new to reloading and shooting why complain?

Dan
 
#24
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

.25MOA is possible, even likely, once or twice in the lifetime of the rifle.

It is a statistically possible fluke that will haunt and mock you far beyond its importance. You will basically go nutz attempting to repeat it, and may even do that once or twice. But it will be luck, pretty much all of it. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.

Be practical, be reasonable, make your ammo with integrity, shoot your rifle like your life depended on every shot. What happens, happens; and you have a right to the confidence that brings.

Groups sizes are for BR shooters, we hit what we shoot at.

Greg
 
#25
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

I think you would be well served to spend some time looking at your load data and the results on the target. Find one load that gives you the best CONSISTENT group size. Load all that you have to that spec and never shoot another group.

Shoot for the center of a 1 MOA target.

One round per target.

If you are shooting steel, go for location of the round

Location, Location, Location - Center

Not trying to sound like a jerk but folks get waaaaayyyy to wrapped up in shooting groups with tactical rifles.

Judge each shot on its own merits, you will learn more.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#26
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glennp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, here I am driving myself crazy trying to replicate another .18MOA group at 100 yards...</div></div>

There is a high liklihood that the 0.18" group was statistics getting to you. A 0.75 MoA gun+ammo+shooter with a standard deviation of 0.25 MoA will shoot around 4% of its groups down in the 0.25 MoA range, and around 4% of its groups up in the 1.25 MoA range; without any change in the inputs from the shooter.
 
#27
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a high liklihood that the 0.18" group was statistics getting to you. <span style="font-weight: bold">A 0.75 MoA gun+ammo+shooter with a standard deviation of 0.25 MoA will shoot around 4% of its groups down in the 0.25 MoA range, and around 4% of its groups up in the 1.25 MoA range; without any change in the inputs from the shooter.</span> </div></div>

Mitch,

Now that is an interesting statement! I understand the math behind it, but I would question it's legitimacy for our application. Here's why, a 3/4 MOA shooter - stick combo should be able to hit 15 of 15 1/2" dots at 100 yards. Based on what you are saying, a 3/4 MOA combo can only be expect some shots in the center of the dots and others missing them completely.

Please don't miss read my "tone'. It's posts like yours that inspire positive dialog!

-Chris
 
#28
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.5 to .6 MOA stock rifle is freakin' awesome. You can try to improve on it, but you may begin to chase your tail. I'd load up your best load, and shoot the heck out of it now. </div></div>

Give me a stock rifle that does 1/2 MOA, I'm done. I'm gonna wear the barrel out from that point forward, and maybe drop it in a stock if the original one doesn't suit my fancy.
 
#30
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

bless it and shoot out the barrel, you got a good one.

download the practical target created by lowlight and shoot it. post the results. to me the dots appear to be 3/4 inch.
 
#32
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Words of wisdom. If you set your goal at .10 and are not happy with anything more, you are destined to be unhappy a whole bunch. As I have stated many times before, there are a lot more sub-half rifles and shooters on the inter-net than there are on the range. </div></div>

You have 32 posts, how many times could you have said it? LOL
 
#33
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOSTIL1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like to shoot 3 groups of 5 then average them. Should I be doing something different?

P1010163.jpg
</div></div>

IMO you have nothing to worry about, that's a fine shooting rifle, and trigger squeezer there!

Branden
 
#34
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

I have the same setup and I got a .55" group at 100 yards with 175SMKs and 44.4 of Varget. They were FL resized and loaded to magazine length. I was very happy with that result.
 
#35
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a high liklihood that the 0.18" group was statistics getting to you. <span style="font-weight: bold">A 0.75 MoA gun+ammo+shooter with a standard deviation of 0.25 MoA will shoot around 4% of its groups down in the 0.25 MoA range, and around 4% of its groups up in the 1.25 MoA range; without any change in the inputs from the shooter.</span> </div></div>

Mitch,

Now that is an interesting statement! I understand the math behind it, but I would question it's legitimacy for our application. Here's why, a 3/4 MOA shooter - stick combo should be able to hit 15 of 15 1/2" dots at 100 yards. Based on what you are saying, a 3/4 MOA combo can only be expect some shots in the center of the dots and others missing them completely.

Please don't miss read my "tone'. It's posts like yours that inspire positive dialog!

-Chris
</div></div>

Chriss: all I did was to take 2 sigma above and below the mean. At 2 sigma we have a 96% confidence level.

However, now that I think about it, I suspect its 2% down near 0.25" and 2% up near 1.25" (instead of the 4% previously mentioned.)

The typical shooter who does not understand statistics overreads most changes in the size of this groups. One small group makes him think he is a genius and goes to repeat a subtle change in his process or even make a larger change in the same direction. One large group makes him think its was all fliers, or a bad day, or the change in his process was in the wrong direction.

The shooter who does understand statistics, waits for the change to rise above the noise level (confidence > 50%) before accepting that the change was towards the better or towards the worse.
 
#36
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

I am with Gordo. How many groups do you see with a flyer? Ha it only 'doesn't count' 'cos it was paper.

I have a 308 Sako 75 varmint out the box. IT will shoot about .5 moa with pretty much any handload, pretty much all the time. The bald geezer behind it is another matter!!

I read on here that I shouldn't expect any better than about .4 moa out of a factory rifle, so I stopped chasing the impossible and started looking at the quality of my reloads and my technique.

I learned that once I got to a certain consistency in my reloading the variations didn't make any difference (I suspect because at that point my chamber/barrel etc becomes the dominant link)but what i did was the key.

So I now have a rig whose capabilities I understand and the challenge is now to consistently deliver them

Andy
 
#37
Re: Am I being too optomistic looking for .25MOA?

What caliber ammunition are you shooting?

Figuring to put 5 rounds of anything bigger than a 6mm into a quater-inch group is not going to be possible...

I have fired 5rd groups at 100yds that measured under .37", and that did NOT include subtracting bullet diameter. Subtract .308 from that and group size was well under .25" Shooting off the bags, consistently grouping 5 rds from .35-.39". At 200yds consistently grouping .67 to .70 bullet diameter not deducted; measured with Mitutoyo .oo1 dial caliper.

Use a square as your aiming mark. Align crosshair on corner point angle of square every time, manage your trigger and let rifle freely recoil, no grip on rifle; you will see what it can do.

Shoot the same groups sitting or standing with only a sling; then you have a skill that is usable.
 
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