Am I just trash with an AR?

[Jackomason]

I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.

The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

 

[Top O' Texas]

Sometimes the barrel doesn't like the bullets regardless of primers and/or powders. AR's are different animals when it comes to this between ba's. What's the twist rate?

 

[Jackomason]

Sometimes the barrel doesn't like the bullets regardless of primers and/or powders. AR's are different animals when it comes to this between ba's. What's the twist rate?

It's a WOA 18" SPR 1-8" rifle length.

I had that thought and have a few different types headed my way.

I'm used to bolt guns just shooting, so that's a fair assessment. I just thought the group shape changes were telling me something.

 

[1911hombre]

On the second picture are those stickies 1" or what? No reference to size. If they are 1" then your results could be a combo of fundamental problems, as in cheekweld, follow-thru, NPA, trigger control, don't reset trigger 'till you have impact. Is that a 4-16x42 ATACR? What mag are you trying to shoot groups with? What's with the bipod stretched out so tall? I'd have to be on my hands and knees to have a bipod that tall.

 

[Top O' Texas]

Use the same breathing and trigger control like ba's. The 8 is fine for the 75's unless they're match bullets. I haven't reloaded much for the 5.56, but will be reloading 75's of Hornady 75bthp and Speer 75tmj.

 

[Jackomason]

On the second picture are those stickies 1" or what? No reference to size. If they are 1" then your results could be a combo of fundamental problems, as in cheekweld, follow-thru, NPA, trigger control. Is that a 4-16x42 ATACR? What mag are you trying to shoot groups with? What's with the bipod stretched out so tall? I's have to be on my hands and knees to have a bipod that tall.

The stickers are just under 1".

It is a 4-16 ATACR @16x. I don't have any issues seeing the target and felt good about POA throughout. The mount is a 1.54" and I generally have more contact with the stock, so cheekweld could be an issue but I'd assume parallax adjustment would solve that (?).

I pin the trigger to the rear, build a position behind the rifle and don't take my face off the gun until the group is done. I'm a midpack shooter at matches. I can't see myself though so maybe my position is jacked up? I guess I'll video myself when I go out next.

Would I be wrong in focusing on my rear bag?

 

[Old Man with Gun]

You need a class, coach, club or match. You need others to shoot your rifle / ammo to know if the problem is you or it.

If you don't know if you are the problem, you need a support network that can watch you shoot and give advice.

 

[1911hombre]

Try turning your mag down to maybe 8-10x. I learned to do this from HMFIC. Works for me.

 

[hlee]

Fundamentals are fundamentals. That’s why they are called fundamental. Position, breathing, sight alignment, trigger press. But, compared to bolt guns, AR triggers tend to suck. And, the recoil starts as soon as you break the trigger. The giant mass of metal hurtling toward you as the other tiny piece of metal hurtles away from you gives you less margin for error, even in a “low recoiling” 5.56/223 rifle. An AR will exploit gaps in your fundamentals that a bolt action doesn’t know exist. Grip pressure, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, bipod load; these all affect the shot, and they affect an AR more.

So, what trigger are you running in that thing?

 

[hafejd30]

It's a WOA 18" SPR 1-8" rifle length.

I had that thought and have a few different types headed my way.

I'm used to bolt guns just shooting, so that's a fair assessment. I just thought the group shape changes were telling me something.

I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping

 

[Jackomason]

Fundamentals are fundamentals. That’s why they are called fundamental. Position, breathing, sight alignment, trigger press. But, compared to bolt guns, AR triggers tend to suck. And, the recoil starts as soon as you break the trigger. The giant mass of metal hurtling toward you as the other tiny piece of metal hurtles away from you gives you less margin for error, even in a “low recoiling” 5.56/223 rifle. An AR will exploit gaps in your fundamentals that a bolt action doesn’t know exist. Grip pressure, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, bipod load; these all affect the shot, and they affect an AR more.

So, what trigger are you running in that thing?

I think you're right. I really try to practice my fundamentals but I don't think the bolt guns are telling the full story. Although I still shoot my 300 NM decently.

It's an SSAE, however I also have a MBT2S that seems to be a bit more crisp.

I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping

I did try both with and without a crimp. I'll get some factory ammo this next week but I'll be stuck at a conference so it'll have to wait.

I think I'll also pick up a magpul DT PR to see if it rides a bag better.

 

[Top O' Texas]

I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping

Some disagree with the crimping part, but I crimping all cartridges used for my AR's. Full auto is more if a reason to crimp than semi is. Reduce recoil and it takes away the kinetic energy which usually slows down cyclic rate.

 

[db2000]

It’s you or it’s garbage. I agree about barrels and bullet combos but jeez.

 

[hlee]

And, buy some factory “match” ammunition. It might be my own superstition, but I don’t judge a barrel based on my ability to hand load.

 

[Jackomason]

It’s you or it’s garbage. I agree about barrels and bullet combos but jeez.

Exactly. I've never shot a 4" group let alone 6"+

I haven't ruled the equipment out but I don't want to be that guy. I've been shooting and reloading for a while now and this is a new low lol. I'm all for learning though.

 

[hafejd30]

Some disagree with the crimping part, but I crimping all cartridges used for my AR's. Full auto is more if a reason to crimp than semi is. Reduce recoil and it takes away the kinetic energy which usually slows down cyclic rate.

I had a rock river LAR 8 308 I loaded for a while back. Obviously a 308 vs 556 here. But used small base rcbs dies with no crimp. The bolt slamming forward would work like a bullet puller and the bullet would slide forward .005-.010” when the round loaded

In this case there’s many things it can be. Obviously checking equipment like rings etc are first. Then ammo combo.

That stringing would lead me believe the gun wants to shoot well but equipment or fundamentals are holding it back

 

[db2000]

Exactly. I've never shot a 4" group let alone 6"+

I haven't ruled the equipment out but I don't want to be that guy. I've been shooting and reloading for a while now and this is a new low lol. I'm all for learning though.

For sure. You’ve been on here a long time and obviously hand load, so I give that a lot of respect frankly. You mentioned shooting bolt guns and building your first AR so that’s my assessment. Gas guns as you’ve read are fundamentally challenging. The groups aren’t horrible but I shoot mostly gas. Varget and anything 69-77 should be an easy work up 7-8 tw.

 

[bfoosh006]

Practice , practice.. practice... Gas guns take a longer follow through than bolt guns.

 

[M4orturnate]

Gas guns are different for sure and much harder to shoot well. Just to see chamber a round and slowly extract it and see if the bullet is all scraped up. I've seen feed lips fuck up some bullets. I also bed my barrels on precision gas guns.(Idk if it helps or not but mine shoot pretty well). I have a white oak barrel that shoots 75g bullets as well as a bolt gun at about 2650fps(20" barrel) when I speed it up the groups open up but it's still around moa. Good enough for gas gun matches.

 

[Mulepackhunter]

if it is the equipment there is so much tolerance stacking on an AR its going to be tough to find on here. A good builder could pull it apart and maybe find some issues to look into. Its nice if you have other guns to swap parts with and eliminate possibilities

 

[Joe Z]

Your first pic shows predominantly vertical errors in the group. That is breathing control and poor check weld.

Your second pic shows more horizontal error which is trigger control and body/target index error(not straight behind the rifle).

As mentioned above, the bipod is a too high and collapsible stocks are a bit loose and these will just plain open a group up.

So, add a check riser and some tape to make the stock tighter and fit you or get that PRS you mentioned. (I prefer the UBR, a little less stable but it adapts to more different positions). Get yourself straight behind the rifle. Frank has an old video here somewhere that he demonstrates this using a pencil analogy. Imagine two pencils inline lying on a desk and you have to push the second one forward by only holding the first. If they are not inline the second slides at a tangent, like the bullets. Also, draw that trigger straight back and follow through (hold it.) Semi auto exploits poor NPOA (natural point of aim) more as the internal ballistics take more time.

 

[Jackomason]

if it is the equipment there is so much tolerance stacking on an AR its going to be tough to find on here. A good builder could pull it apart and maybe find some issues to look into. Its nice if you have other guns to swap parts with and eliminate possibilities

I do have 3 ARs I can play with. This is my first precision AR. If you're right, things should sort themselves out with the full LMT build.

I'm going to see if I can figure it out before spending the money on the D.wilson conversion.

I'll report back once I change some crap and test some other bullets. I figured 3/4" was sloppy fundamentals but I guess I'll find out.

 

[weasle]

I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.
View attachment 8641126

The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

View attachment 8641132

Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

View attachment 8641138

Some other obvious things...Did you check the glass to the rings are tight...The mount to the receiver? Different glass to rule out the NF is not an issue? IS the barrel fully free floating? Nothing touching the barrel?