Amazing trajectory calculations QTU INFO UPDATE

JL

JL

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Minuteman
Jun 18, 2005
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#1
Saturday, we were shooting at 2000meters army artillery test range.
At saturday friend calculated trajectory for my 26" SS OA-10M2 (308 AR10).
Buddy used hes own program, based on modifyed Pejsa equations.
Zeroed to 300meters, then shooted one 500meter reference group for calculations.
Based to only that test, got calculated elevations from 400 to 1000meters.
Starting from 600, I shooted first round hits at reactive targets up to 1000m. (600-700-800-900-1000)
Velocity at 1000m is 315mps/1033fps, subsonic. Bullet 185gr Lapua SilverScenar, MV 2648fps.

Shooting continued next day, I left sat evening.
Friend tested hes 338Lapua. Bullet Lapua 250gr Scenar. MV 2970fps. Scope S&B 5-25. Rifle TRG-42

He shooted same torso-size reactive targets at 1600, 1800 and 2000meters.
1600 meters hit at first shot. 1800meters: elevation correct, 19" right. Hit at second.
Last 2000meters (2187yds/1,24miles) target: elevation correct, 27" right. Hit at second shot...
20 guys behind were dead silent...including spotter...
smile.gif

Bullet velocity @2000m is about 705fps.
If I remember correctly, elevation 33.5mrad, coriolis correction 0.2mrad/16" (shooting to north), bullet spin correction 1.6mrad and then some for wind. Flight time 4.5sec.

Trajectory for 338Lapua Magnum was calculated with QuickTarget Unlimited. Seems that it calculates correctly, <span style="text-decoration: underline">as long
as one has radar data for bullet</span>. Unfortunately I dont have it, not sure if f.e. Sierra gives such information to civils.


BTW, shooter write here too.
 
#2
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Well, the range was actually 2008meters (abou 1.25 miles) - wanted to make sure nobydy claims it was 1 meter or so short of 2k. :) And rifle TRG-42.

I was lucky to have 20 people testify the shots.

.338LM and 250gr Scenar just rules.

MSA
 
#5
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Oh, only your 6.5x284 is custom Jalonen then.
blush.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fredo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Care to share the loads?
</div></div>

I think he´s using VihtaVuori N570.
Should be available in US too.

IMHO getting accurate calculated trajectory far,far beyond subsonic barrier is something incredible.

Another noteworthy thing is that Lapua 250gr Scenar can maintain its stability at least
down to 2000meters if shooted from 12" twist barrell.
 
#6
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Rifle:
TRG42 .338LM
100% standard
1/12 Twist 690mm barrel
SB PMII 5-25x56mm P4 with 30MOA Sako 3-ring Tactical base.

LOAD: 16,2g Scenar moly, VVN570 97,0gr, Fed215, Lapua case 115.2gr H20 volume, COL 93.60mm. Vo=905m/s with 20C powder. Accuracy 0.6-0.7MOA.

2008-04-28%20338LM%202008m_tn.jpg
 
#8
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO getting accurate calculated trajectory far,far beyond subsonic barrier is something incredible. </div></div>


I think the incredible part is not the method of prediction, it's finding a round that makes the transition predictably.

Any round that makes the transition smoothly & predictably...will be predictable; any round that goes to ratshit when transitioning won't.


(PS ...I spent some time at Rovajärvi several years back; great fun, although it was some time before I could look at vodka again!)
 
#9
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Mike25: 0.6-0.7MOA is the 200-300m average accuracy.

I've been calculating trajetories using several softwares. Starting from G1-function programs, to self built modified Pejsa-formula based software. To my understanding Quick Load Unlimited is by far the most accurate software provided that you have bullet specific CD(v) (coefficient of drag - not the same than BC). Before the 1600, 1800 and 2000 meter shots I'd only shot up to 1400m. With QTU I was able to calculate exact corrections to elevation and windage without any prior results nor references. That IS quite remarkable.

From physics perspective methods using Ballistic Coefficient (BC) are fundamentally wrong for predicting trajectories. QTU uses bullet specific coefficient of drag information and therefore is able to this super accuracy.

 
#12
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

man you gotta watch it, some of these guys around here wont believe you when you tell them what can be done with a standard barrel. I got in a hell of a fight earlier over what a standard barrel can do.
 
#14
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Torfinn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, .338 is badass.
How big was the target you guys were shooting out? Thanks for the picture btw.
</div></div>

Standard Finnish Army reactive target aluminium plate, 45cm x 90cm or 17.7" wide, 35" high.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackstone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where might I find "Quick Load Unlimited"?
Tried Google and got unrelated info.
</div></div>

At least with newer versions, It comes automatically in same CD with normal QT/QL.
Got latest version (3.4?), QTU was included.
Alltough i think I had to install it separately- but it was there.

But program itself is more or less useless without bullet specific data- and its not public.
For some reason manufacturers dont want to share that info.

 
#15
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> self built modified Pejsa-formula based software.</div></div>

Share!
laugh.gif


Yes the powder is available, i have a bit.
 
#16
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fredo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Share!
laugh.gif

</div></div>

Quick Target Unlimited (QTU) comes with Hartmut Broemel's QuickLoad 3.4 version. Get that. That has already following bullets specific drag coefficient files:
- 9mmLugerVMR
- 190grSierraMK
- .50 cal FMJ Ball M33
- 5.6mmGP90
- L110-Tracer
- M193-FMJ
- M855
- M856-Tracer
- S-109
- M-80
- M-188-Match
- 168grSierraMK(M852)

====

For Pejsa method get this Excel-file.
http://www.jacksonrifles.com/files/pejsa%20ballistics.xls
It has Pejsa formulas implemented.

For 250gr Scenar hit following values:
BC=0,665 K=0,511
(these hold exactly true only when MV=2950fps, temp 20C and pressure 1000hbar). When going colder and lower velocities K changes downwards.

It will get you out to 1500m within about 0.05mil error. (I've finetuned the values against doppler radar test shooting results AND shot them.) Only QTU estimates better than this. Also Patagonian Ballistics offers pejsa formulas implemented in LoadBase PC and PDA softwares.
 
#17
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">man you gotta watch it, some of these guys around here wont believe you when you tell them what can be done with a standard barrel. I got in a hell of a fight earlier over what a standard barrel can do. </div></div>

Well, I'm a Finn and we tend to give rat's ass when other people say something is impossible. Hell, if our grand fathers had "believed" that the 1:10 odds agains Russian invasion in WWII is just too much, I'd be writing on Russian forums. Luckily they didn't but fought and humiliated "The Red Army".
grin.gif


About the barrel. It is not 100% factory. I should add also that I've "ruined" it with ammonia left in barrel over night. With a boroscope you can see big craters in the rifling... Sure, it probably affected the accuracy, but it still seems to be enough.

When talking about barrels. I tend to take a close look at the barrel dimensions to avoid any carbon/moly/other fouling. I have a lapping lead insert to check the dimensions of the barrel regularly.
 
#19
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

kiitoksia!
smile.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've "ruined" it with ammonia left in barrel over night. With a boroscope you can see big craters in the rifling.</div></div>

I have also done this with a .50 barrel, the groups were better then before it was pitted. Maybe i was shooting better. I can't imagine pitting being helpful, but it didn't seem to be a problem for 40 rounds. I would guess the pitting wears the barrel more quickly and builds uneven copper deposits after extended use without cleaning.
 
#20
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will get you out to 1500m within about 0.05mil error. (I've finetuned the values against doppler radar test shooting results AND shot them.) </div></div>

You seriously believe you that you can identify a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">7.5cm </span></span>elevation error between predicted data and a doppler trace at <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">1.5km </span></span> and put that "error" down to the prediction method????!!

 
#21
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild Bill C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TCoD is referring to his claims of sub 1/4 MOA (1.67") groups, consistently, at 800 yards with a stock Savage in a Choate US stock... with factory ammo... prone off a bipod... Seems to think this kind of grouping is normal for his rifle & ammo.... See the Precision Rifles Show Em thread in the Field Sketch section for more... I happen to like the Savages, not the Choates, but if I could consistently group sub 1/4 moa with a factory Savage & ammo I'd be out winning some matches instead of talking up my ego on the internet.... Mike (of TIS fame), as a member of the F/TR National Team, could you please reply with what kind of accuracy is competitive for this range in National competition? Thanks! </div></div>

Don’t forget, his rifle also defies the laws of physics. States that spin drift doesn’t come into play with his rifle until "Way Out There".
 
#22
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh ya, they also tried to tell me that you have to adjust for spin drift and coriolis at 400 yards. </div></div>

Only spin drift would have an effect. Coriolis is only a concern if you’re an Artillery Crew Member since it deals with the rotational effect the earth has on long range Artillery shots as the earth rotates out from under the projectile as it's in flight. I doubt even your magical rifle would need to worry about the Coriolis Effect.

A Savage in a Choate Ultimate Sniper Stock shooting sub .250 moa as a norm with factory ammo at 800 yards. Yea, right. You called the disscussion earlier a big fight???
 
#24
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

wnroscoe,
if you would have been paying attention you would have noticed that I said nothing about spin drift and my rifle. I said spin drift and coriolis doesnt come in to affect till 1500+ yards period. If you hade any sense at all you would know that a .308 doesnt have an effective range of 1500 yards. And to anyone who thinks that 2" groups cant be done at 800 yards, maybe you cant do because you suck behind a rifle and thats too bad for you. I know what can be done and everybody who knows me knows it can be done. I could give a shit less what you think and frankly I am tired of talking about it. If you guys shot your rifle as much as you like to take pictures of it, maybe you would realize its not impossible. I will shoot a video for the non beleivers abd post it on youtube and I will do it so you know there is no faking it so until then, drop the subject and move on or prove me wrong.
 
#29
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

I hate to tell you but coriolis does affect rifles.Check out the cheytac web site stupid and then you can tell me you are sorry for being stupid and not knowing anything about shooting.
 
#31
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

if coriolis doesnt affect anything, then why do they have software to correct for it?

hmmm...

maybe they are stupid like me and dont know anything about long range.
 
#32
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brown Dog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will get you out to 1500m within about 0.05mil error. (I've finetuned the values against doppler radar test shooting results AND shot them.) </div></div>

You seriously believe you that you can identify a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">7.5cm </span></span>elevation error between predicted data and a doppler trace at <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">1.5km </span></span> and put that "error" down to the prediction method????!!

</div></div>

Hmm. Not sure am I following you, my bad english...but:

dont know details of MSA:s that particular test, but if you
1. Shoot decent group to 1500meters AND measure MV and weather carefully
2. Compare it to QTU doppler data with same enviromental data
3. Compare it to another program with same weather data (and fine tune it same time as close as possible)

then, why shouldnt 0.05mrad /7.5cm / 3" difference be possible?
Its not much, but still?
 
#33
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

its hard to be humble when a man flat out calls you a liar and says that you can not do something that I know damn well I can. I get mad when someone acts like they know something but really dont, especially when I am trying to help people. I dont mean to sound like I do.
 
#34
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Welcome to the hide thecloudofdeath,

If you could you please stop posting for a moment and take a few hours to read through post's made on this forum.
What ever you think you know about LR shooting there are people here who have so much more experience and could quite possible be the very sources to the facts that you refer too.
So be humble, read and learn, and you will have a great experience here on the hide.

So please help us get this tread back on track and stop ruining my "neighbors" post.

...

JL & MSA

I'm very impressed of both your calculations and shooting! Great post! Loistava MSA!

Jo

 
#35
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
dont know details of MSA:s that particular test, but if you
1. Shoot decent group to 1500meters AND measure MV and weather carefully
2. Compare it to QTU doppler data with same enviromental data
3. Compare it to another program with same weather data (and fine tune it same time as close as possible)

then, why shouldnt 0.05mrad /7.5cm / 3" difference be possible?
Its not much, but still? </div></div>

JL,

Got to start my answer with a question: What vertical dispersion did the dopplered shots show?

Because of all the interacting and unpredictable variables between shots (minor MV changes, slightly different bullet weights, slightly different bullet shapes, a 0.1 knot tailwind change etc) or between strings of shots (the slightly warmer barrel, the different bore surface /fouling compared to the last string, a 4mB pressure change etc) to claim to define a particular ammunition's drop to an exact value at 1.5km is....err, optimistic.

Each round in a string will land differently to the last. Thinking only in vertical terms; the rounds will have a normal (Gaussian)distribution. Some will land high, some will land low; 68% will land within one standard deviation of the mean POI....and it’s likely that that mean POI will be different from string to string and, especially, occasion to occasion.

Thus to say predicted data shows an error of 7.5cm against observed at 1.5km can only be correct if it refers to an observed mean POI on a particular occasion; and only meaningful if the size of the whole distribution, or at least, the size of one standard deviation is given.

I would say that any prediction that is within one standard deviation of the mean is ‘within tolerance’ ..or ‘close enough for government work’….because you’ve predicted data that will put your shot within the zone in which 68% of all shots will hit.

..and I rather suspect that this 7.5cm ‘error’ will be well inside one SD for rifle fire at 1.5km!

...and thus, in real world terms, I suspect 7.5cm at 1.5km cannot be sensibly described as an 'error'.

smile.gif

 
#36
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if coriolis doesnt affect anything, then why do they have software to correct for it?

hmmm...

maybe they are stupid like me and dont know anything about long range. </div></div>

Your the one coming on here thumping your chest saying how good you are. Now your serfing the Cheytac site bring up info concerning their rifle, arent we talking about your magical .308. I never said Coriolis came into play, I said spin drift did. Keep up. I'm simply saying a .308 <span style="font-weight: bold">"Will Not"</span> maintain .250"moa at 800 yards with boring regualrity. Stop acting like a spoiled little brat, you brought it up and got called out on it. I do shoot my rifles, last year alone I logged over 3,000 rounds through one of them, 900 rounds through another one since November. To say I shoot a little is an understatement. I've done the testing, I know what I'm saying. I dont make up shit or talk it, I speak from the facts and my own personal observations, I have been around a rifle or two. Having owned several .308's, I know what they'll do, .250"moa to 800, on command, not.

This is day two, so far you've made 30 post, changed your name twice and insulted the members here saying they must not shoot very much except for during deer season.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont want to sound like a hard ass, but if you guys really really think that 2 inches is crazy, what the hell kind of groups are you shooting? How far away do you shoot and how often do you shoot like once a year around deer season? </div></div>


Further more, you say they act like their killing a General when they do shoot during deer season.How many times have you googled the topic so you'd know how to respond.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well damn what do you expect, you are acting like I get off on saying I can do stuff that I cant. I have no reason to lie. I could care less what you people think, I know what I can do and I know what I have seen other people do and you act like it impossible which tells me most of you are more than likely deer hunters who act like they are snipers taking aout a general at deer season. </div></div>

Please continue to tell me what a dumb ass I am, I love hearing it from people like you. It lets me know I'm getting to you as it's the only responce you can make. Heres a thought, read more type less.
 
#38
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

ooooo!
he shoots his BB gun a whole lot last year, you a big expert sniper huh?
big tough guy on the internet arent you.
I think it just pisses you off that you cant shoot worth shit. And now your the one THUMPING YOUR CHEST, talking like you did some shootin last year, WTF? who cares about last year, how much have you shot this week? Huh?
Big tough guy arent ya!
 
#39
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

I am not saying bad things about everybody on this site. only assholes like you who put people down when they say they can do something that you cant!
 
#40
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

TCOD,

You contradicted yourself in this thread. You post one three (3) shot group, say it was shot at 800 yards, and declare yourself as a Long Range Precision Rifle know-it-all.

I'm from the "Show-Me" State - make me a believer. Show up at a sanctioned 600 yd or 1000 yard BR/F-class/Tactical match, and SHOW-US. Until then, you have NO credibility....

Where do you hail?...

Cheers,

Bill
 
#41
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who cares about last year, how much have you shot this week? Huh? Big tough guy arent ya! </div></div>

This is all I've had time to shoot this week so far, been working late, it's only Wednesday though
wink.gif


fovbl.jpg


These are the emptys from November to current, I've 500 more waiting their turn to be sent down range, that'll last less than two months.

ja8ite.jpg


200 yard test target, five shots not three.

9krml0.jpg


Please continue you’re hilarious but, do check you’re spelling, it’s atrocious.
 
#43
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Holy shit is that all? You are a joke dude,
Give me a minute to dump out the emptys I have shot this week and take a pic if you think 120 rounds is a lot for 5 months. I shoot more than that in a week. You need to check the advertisement for this site,
It says for the serious tactical marksmen, not the weekend warrior.
 
#46
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy shit is that all? You are a joke dude,
Give me a minute to dump out the emptys I have shot this week and take a pic if you think 120 rounds is a lot for 5 months. I shoot more than that in a week. You need to check the advertisement for this site,
It says for the serious tactical marksmen, not the weekend warrior. </div></div>

I said this week, not 5 months and this week is'nt over.
 
#47
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

Heres some others for you.

These are reamers and go gauges, I've been known to build a rifle or two
grin.gif


2r7oxh5.jpg


These are from last September to present. The one with blue on it is from a 30 round for score 750 yard match, first place, .308 I had. I'll be awaiting your pics, laughing.

2qs9hc1.jpg

 
#48
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thecloudofdeath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you need to check your speeling dumb ass. Its "your" not "YOU ARE"! </div></div>

oops, you got me, still laughing
 
#49
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wn,

Is that 6x47Lapua? </div></div>

6XC, I've a 6.5x47L Reamer though, waiting for the XC to give it up so it can under go the sex change
wink.gif
The 6x47L would also be bad ass.
 
#50
Re: Amazing trajectory calculations

WN,

Agreed the 6x47L would be a bad mother. My 8 twist 6mmRem is a hammer, but when it dies I am wanting something that I can feed out of a Badger DBM...with room to grow. I dont really want to give up any of the performance of the 6mmRem- 105AMAXes @ 3130 is a sweet deal. Im thinking the 6x47L just may be the ticket.
 
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