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Ammo issue in AIAX. Is the gun okay? Why did this happen?

Coloradocop

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 17, 2010
164
1
45
Front Range of Colorado
I'll start with the picture, then give the longer explanation. I'll also say that I really don't think it was an issue of sloppy loading on my part, and I'm wondering if it was simply a bad primer, but more on that later:




So, here's the deal:

I took 50 rounds worth of my normal load for my AIAX 260 out to the range today, and round #47 performed as shown above. Prior to this shot I had no signs of pressure, and things were shooting just great. I was shooting at a 5.5" plate at 500 yards when this failure occurred, and this shot was a hit, along with the previous two shots (which makes me think it wasn't moving at any kind of substantially different velocity). The failure cut an etch into the bolt face of the rifle that is roughly the same shape as the area where the gas escaped.

I've used this particular load for about 250-300 rounds so far, and I'm pretty meticulous about my loading technique. I'm guessing that this may have been a bad primer issue, but I'm not certain I know how to avoid this kind of thing in the future. Moreover, I'm worried that this VERY expensive rifle is damaged… if it is merely cosmetic I can deal with it, but I'm definitely concerned about accuracy and function.

Any thoughts on why this happened? Is the damage to the bolt face merely cosmetic, or should I expect accuracy problems, etc?



Here's what I can tell you about the load that was being shot at the time of the failure (and again, only one shot out of these fifty had a problem):

1) Lapua brass… this was its 4th firing. It had been full-length sized, then trimmed to 2.025", and the primer pockets were cleaned with a hand held tool.

2) Winchester large rifle primers. This happened about 850 primers into a box of 1,000

3) Lapua 139gr Scenar bullet, seated to a depth that put the bullet 0.042" off of the lands.

4) 41.4 grains of H4350 powder. I've run hotter before in this gun without pressure signs, and this is below the published book max. These days my powder is almost always from a newer lot, as I buy cans as I can find them, often 1 pound at a time (the obvious powder supply issue). But, I had already fired probably 70 shots from this can, so it wasn't just freshly opened. I weigh each charge on an RCBS Chargemaster Combo, and double check the pan weight before putting it into the case. There's no chance I overcharged the case, unless the scale is simply not working correctly.

5) This load previously went over the chronograph at 2,704 fps, on a colder day when the rifle was new, at the same elevation, using a slightly deeper bullet seating depth.

6) Today was a 73 degree day at the range, at 5,800 feet elevation. I've previously fired this load, from this rifle, on a 92 degree day.


Any insight?



Here are a couple more pictures:




The rest of today's ammo (no obvious pressure signs, no extractor marks, nothing other than the one problem shot):




The bolt face (sorry, it was tough to photograph):

 
Barrett Rifles Discussion Forum ? View topic - >.308 bad round bolt damage

Same thing happened to a guy on the Barret forum. His picture looks exactly like yours.
Gonrcng said:
Called one of the techs at Barrett this morning and was told it should be fine and just shoot on. I think I will stay away from the SSA stuff from now on. Not terribly happy having a pit in my bolt face but I guess as long as its safe and still shoots fine then so be it.
 
Hey guys, this has been covered before. Apparently the skirts of winchester primers have an increased failure rate in EXACTLY this manner. I do not remember exactly where the info came from. I have had around 90 rounds of M118LR do something similar on a smaller scale in my AIAX and the bolt face has an etched ring in the bolt face but it does not hurt anything, even checked out by AINA they said I was good to go.

Rule of thumb, AI rifles can be primer sensitive due to the firing pin size in 6mm and 6.5mm chamberings. Look to primer hardness charts to choose a stronger primer. I.e. CCI BR2s use magnum cup for durability under high pressure spikes which is normal (doesnt mean you have a hot load either).
 
Hey guys, this has been covered before. Apparently the skirts of winchester primers have an increased failure rate in EXACTLY this manner. I do not remember exactly where the info came from. I have had around 90 rounds of M118LR do something similar on a smaller scale in my AIAX and the bolt face has an etched ring in the bolt face but it does not hurt anything, even checked out by AINA they said I was good to go.

Rule of thumb, AI rifles can be primer sensitive due to the firing pin size in 6mm and 6.5mm chamberings. Look to primer hardness charts to choose a stronger primer. I.e. CCI BR2s use magnum cup for durability under high pressure spikes which is normal (doesnt mean you have a hot load either).
Matt, given that tho photo the op provided clearly shows that the primer failed near the edge quite far from the firing pin indentation, how do you feel that the " firing pin size" contributed to this?
 
Im sorry I was not very clear there. I mean to say the above failure is the primer cup skirt failure BUT to also watch out, a few see pierced primers in 6mm and 6.5mm chamberings in these rifles. My suggestion to the above is to choose another primer brand. FYI the Federal 210Ms are also a bit soft. I liked CCI 200s BR2s, Tula KVB7s etc.
 
While none were that bad, I have seen a disturbing number of Winchester large rifle primers leak gas and cut holes into the bolt face. A high enough percentage that I would never run Winchesters in my own rifle. Funnily enough, it seems like everyone else feels that way, because the only primers I can find are Winchesters, and everyone still seems to have stock of them.

The failures I saw were pinhole leaks from the edge of the primer cup, like yours but smaller. These were all from very mild .308 loads, nowhere near max.
 
Good call on the primers from Winchester, I didn’t know that… I suspect the cup of the brass may have developed a small crease from the seating operation giving the gas a path of least resistance.

At least mechanically that seems like a plausible way of getting into a situation like that.

Sorry to hear about the bolt face OP, let us know how the rifle continues to shoot. I suspect it’s only cosmetic.
 
It is the very famous Winchester primer blowout, that seems to be becoming more and more "famouser" all the time.

I don't know what to say about the bolt, except that if it was mine I'd be mighty pissed!

Believe me, I am! I've been irritated about it since 2pm when it happened (and it's now 3:15am here).

I ran Winchester primers for a lot of years, often because they were the only thing I could reliably find in stores. As you know, components have been hard to come by (on and off) ever since 2008. Anyway, I never had any issues with the Win primers while running my .308, and this is the first time with the .260. But, it sure wouldn't take very many of these incidents to chew up a bolt pretty badly!

I've got one single box of GMM primers here at the house, so it might be time to work up some loads with those. I just hate having to start over again, when I'm sitting on about 8,000 Win primers!
 
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Contact Winchester, send them the pictures and your lot #'s, They are getting used to it and may replace your primers or otherwise give you some relief.

I always used Win. primers when they were "Staynless" but no more.
 
Thanks, everyone. Apparently the Winchester primer issue was known to a lot of folks, but not known to me. I've fired thousands of Winchester primers in the past, and never had a problem until now. But, the answers to this question have been pretty much they same on this forum, and another forum that I posted the question on… the majority of folks are pointing toward a primer failure, and the majority of folks seem to think that this happens too often with Winchester primers.

For me that is both good and bad news. Good news: there's a reasonable explanation for this failure. Bad news: I have about 6K Winchester LR primers left (a few thousand more in other varieties), and only 1K of another brand. Plus, Win primers are all I'm finding on store shelves right now.

For those who were wondering, my problem primer came from LOT # CLL563G
 
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Before I even read the post I could already tell where your issue was coming from just from your pictures, running those Winchester primers = no bueno. Sounds like you've figured that out as many others have commented on it. Your gun will be fine, but change your primer (even though you have 4k of them). I've had one and it sucks, just add them on your list of components to steer clear of and move on. Worst case is you can unload them on someone locally who likes the Winchester primers and not take too big of a hit.
 
I've had that happen. For me it was loose tension when seating the primer. I had several of my 260 loads this summer I was loading for a match. I figured they would be good enough since I would prob lose the brass anyway. Blew just like that. Now if they go in loose I toss the case. FYI, if you run a jewel trigger that pressure will break your trigger. Trust me. They see it all the time. And it'll cost you 50 bucks to fix!
 
Contact Winchester, send them the pictures and your lot #'s, They are getting used to it and may replace your primers or otherwise give you some relief.

I always used Win. primers when they were "Staynless" but no more.

They will want any loaded ammo, every primer of that lot number and they even wanted my rifle so they could see if it was an issue on their part or loading too hot. I checked into it and said fuck it when they wanted my rifle.
 
I've had that happen. For me it was loose tension when seating the primer. I had several of my 260 loads this summer I was loading for a match. I figured they would be good enough since I would prob lose the brass anyway. Blew just like that. Now if they go in loose I toss the case. FYI, if you run a jewel trigger that pressure will break your trigger. Trust me. They see it all the time. And it'll cost you 50 bucks to fix!

You were blowing little pinholes through the side of the primers?

From loose primer pockets?

Please explain...
 
I've gotta say this worries me a bit. I switched to WLR's in 2009 when I couldn't find FGMM primers. I got even better ES's and SD's and never went back even when federals came available again. I've shot 15-20k of them and never had a failure like this. When the charges get up in pressure on a hot day or something I do notice gas getting by the skirt sometimes but never a failure like this. I just bought a new lot of 10k primers and have gone through a little under 2k, I've noticed a lot more with gas leaking by the skirts even in virgin Lapua brass.

I certainly don't want this to happen in one of my AI's because Winchester will probably come back with a "load at your own risk" denying responsibility for the failure.
 
I've gotta say this worries me a bit. I switched to WLR's in 2009 when I couldn't find FGMM primers. I got even better ES's and SD's and never went back even when federals came available again. I've shot 15-20k of them and never had a failure like this. When the charges get up in pressure on a hot day or something I do notice gas getting by the skirt sometimes but never a failure like this. I just bought a new lot of 10k primers and have gone through a little under 2k, I've noticed a lot more with gas leaking by the skirts even in virgin Lapua brass.

I certainly don't want this to happen in one of my AI's because Winchester will probably come back with a "load at your own risk" denying responsibility for the failure.

I'm not saying this is the case but you may want to look very closely at some of those that looks like it's getting by the skirt. I originally thought that was my problem but I had to use my wife's magnifying glass to see the pinhole on the rounded part of the primer. It still leaves a nice pit in the bolt face.
 
I had about a half dozen pits on my AI bolt face in the first month after I bought it. I caught it one night cleaning the rifle and went through about 200 pieces of brass.
 
I have a few thousand older lot (maybe 5 or 6 years) WW primers. Do you guys think they are safe? I rarely use them but I would like to.

Welcome to the 6.5 mm and Ai world , i went thru the same issues years ago till my bolt face was completely pitted on my Aw ,i used cci 250 primers ,federal 210,210m ,Winchester and Winchester magnums , remington they all seeped or punctured eventually . I sent my Aw to Chad Dixon as he was the only gunsmith that would even consider resurfacing my aw bolt face ,he rebarreled it in 308 and problem solved. Try cci 7.62 military primers (white box) as a last resort and if it continues I'd say sell off the barrel and go 308. I went with a Sako trg22 and rebarreled it in 260 and never had that issue. It's the firing pin with the Ai rifles and some do it some dont. I honestly know that it's not only winchester primers ,it's any primer with the 6.5 mm chambering in some Ai rifles.Good luck
 
[MENTION=18298]81sfo[/MENTION] I have four AI rifles and one of them is an AW in 260 Remington. I have about 500 rounds thru it now (all federal primer) and no issues at all. Even when I have gone above 44 grains of H4350 with the 142 SMK. I am simply asking at what point the wide spread WW primer issue started and not in particular to AI rifles or 260 Remington chambers. Since primers are getting harder and harder to come by I just want to be sure I can put the several thousand WW rifle primers I have on hand into service.
 
Oh I don't know about the Winchester problem ,I've never saw it with any other of my rifles but only with my 260 aw . I shot many winchesters in my M40a1 308 and never saw failures .
Here's my aw 260 rem brass , and bolt face ,it is hard to see but there was a ring that was pitted all the way around ,I should of stopped firing the 260 cartridge ASAP.

IMAG0468-1-1.jpg

bf6-1.jpg
 
Oh I don't know about the Winchester problem ,I've never saw it with any other of my rifles but only with my 260 aw . I shot many winchesters in my M40a1 308 and never saw failures .
Here's my aw 260 rem brass , and bolt face ,it is hard to see but there was a ring that was pitted all the way around ,I should of stopped firing the 260 cartridge ASAP.

Yeah, you aren't painting a pretty picture for me here.

I've also run a ton of Win LR primers in the past, mostly in my .308 Tikka. I've also run Win pistol primers exclusively for thousands of rounds, and Win SR primers for my AR-15's. This is the first time I've seen a problem like this, and it was shortly into the life of my .260 Rem.

So, is the .260 the problem? Or is the problem with this brand of primers combined with the .260 (my assumption)? I know a lot of folks shooting the .260, and I think it's a great cartridge. But, I don't want to destroy a very expensive rifle, either.
 
Oh I don't know about the Winchester problem ,I've never saw it with any other of my rifles but only with my 260 aw . I shot many winchesters in my M40a1 308 and never saw failures .
Here's my aw 260 rem brass , and bolt face ,it is hard to see but there was a ring that was pitted all the way around ,I should of stopped firing the 260 cartridge ASAP.

Then I guess the answer to primer problems with AW bolts is the 6. 5Creedmoor. I have one AW that has had a few thousand of those with no piercing issues or BF pitting.
 
Some Ai rifles in 6.5mms will do it some wont . Zack Smith from Thunderbeast Arms corp. Had some issues in his 6.5x47 I believe he went to military primers and solved the issue. And that cartridge case uses small rifle primers not large.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, you aren't painting a pretty picture for me here.

I've also run a ton of Win LR primers in the past, mostly in my .308 Tikka. I've also run Win pistol primers exclusively for thousands of rounds, and Win SR primers for my AR-15's. This is the first time I've seen a problem like this, and it was shortly into the life of my .260 Rem.

So, is the .260 the problem? Or is the problem with this brand of primers combined with the .260 (my assumption)? I know a lot of folks shooting the .260, and I think it's a great cartridge. But, I don't want to destroy a very expensive rifle, either.

It could be a combo of an AI that isn't very finicky in the 260, but before you worry too much I would try a primer switch. The issue with Winchester LR primers has been in many guns besides AIs. I've had the Winchester primers do that on two rounds out of the 200-300 primers I had used in a Remington 700. I was glad I didn't have anymore than that and thankfully on mine I saw no damage either as I don't think my pinholes were as big as some I've seen.

Shoot your AI with confidence, just try a primer swap and see if it's your primer or your gun being finicky with the 260. Based on your original pics it looks like your AI isn't going to be the issue as the AIs are more notorious for piercing primers due to the firing pin protrusion setting. My AT is shooting 260 no issues at max loadings with Federal primers in the Lapua brass for what it's worth.

And I wouldn't worry about your Winchester primers in other sizes, I haven't had issues with them nor have I seen anyone complaining about a similar issue in their other sizes. It seems to be isolated to the LR primers from what I have seen.
 
Wow, I never heard of this but it seems like the likely cause. I doubt this will hurt your rifles performance.

I use CCI or Federal for my rifle loads.

I've used 10's of thousands of Winchester primers for my pistol loads without a problem.
 
I had the same thing happen with several Federal SR primers a number of years ago, in my AR-15. Now I have a ring etched around the firing pin hole and my fired primers carry a distinctive mark on them from that ring, but it hasn't affected the rifle's shooting or led to any other pressure indications.
 
Change primers and go on with life. If you fire warmer loads for very long that's going to happen. Some of my older rifles have rings etched all the way around the firing pin holes. If it really worries you, there are several people that weld up that circle and machine down the face. I've popped primers from every manufacturer except the early copper cupped Russian "no heavy metals" primers in the green box. I don't have many of those left. But they sure did good in benchrest competition.
 
Cabelas in Lone Tree and Sportsman's Warehouse in Thornton have both been getting CCI BR2s lately bro, keep an eye peeled and you can snag some

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out… I regularly visit the Thornton Sportsman's Warehouse, so hopefully I'll find something there. I'd really like to try the Federal Match primers. I have enough on hand to develop a few loads, but less than I'd like for long term shooting.

The AI bolt heads are separate from the body and are removable. They also are case hardened and do not do well getting welded on.

That's good to know, and I was hoping they might be replaceable separately. I'll see how things shoot as it currently is, and go from there. I'm also planning to let the gunsmith at the shop I got the rifle from take a look at it to see if he thinks there are any issues with it.

However, it's my understanding that the entire gun needs to be sent back to AI for a bolt head replacement. Is there any reason for such a procedure, as opposed to the much cheaper option of just shipping the bolt assembly? Also, do you have any idea what they charge for a bolt head (I'm guessing $$$)? I know that the bolt body, bolt shroud, and action all have matching serial numbers… however, it does appear that the bolt head is numbered differently, so I assume such a repair could be done without ending up with non-matching numbers. This is probably theoretical at the moment, because if it doesn't cause any functional problems I'll likely just let it go.
 
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Mine is etched 360 degrees from shooting M118LR (.308 none the less) and having those primers fail, probably about 150 of them so my BF is scarred up and it does not hurt a thing. I wouldn't even think about spending 1,000+ to have a new matched bolt head and lock ring installed since the action has to be removed from the chassis and rebonded.

Just go shoot it.
 
When you rebarrel if the bf is real bad just have it resurfaced as any gunsmith does to a rem 700 bolt face .. then have your barrel chambered. Only downside is maybe you wont be able to screw on any pre chambered barrel from aina if your headspaced changed a lot from factory by resurfacing bf.