Ammo price gouging

[Seed tick]

WTT-1000 rounds of Hornady 147 ELDM factory ammo for beach front home in Hawaii. FIRM no lowballs!!!

 

[Jefe's Dope]

*Creedmoor*

I've got 7,700 rounds of those 143's that I paid just over $1/round for according to that auction it's worth $31,000 more than I paid for it so stereotype away.

This is a perfect example of why "gouging" is good. It brings otherwise unavailable product to market. *Not saying you're looking to sell but you would certainly consider it more at these prices than say a few cents under what you paid. Which then floods the market driving the price back down. Or at least stabilizing it.

 

[mkollman74]

So rtB,
Is that hypothetical?
Or are you in the ammo supply chain business and know this to be true?
I’m like theGerman and would really like to know who is and who isn’t making the extreme markups at the retail level.

So what percentage markup should be acceptable, and who gets to decide?

 

[vinniedelpino]

The problem is partially due to the amount of ammo a lot of us shoot. We go through a lot more than the average joe due to training matches etc. We need a fairly regular supply so as not to get into the “stash” so to speak. Hell most LRP matches require 250-300 rounds. Training for carbine or handgun can easily be twice that.

It pains me to calculate how much ammo I've sent down range in the last 12 months at todays prices.

If I would've known what was coming I'd have shot a lot more .22lr and saved my primers. My mistake. I'll own it.

 

[JbBooks]

My point is simply that even though I have no control over how ammo is priced, I do have a choice where I spend my money.
I’ve run my own business for 44 years and there have been times when I could have taken advantage of supply issues. There was never a possibility there wouldn’t be anymore of that item. It was just a matter of time. I’d call my clients and let them know there was a shortage and give everyone a chance to buy equitable portions at “normal” prices. Personally, my hats off to those that price their ammo “fairly” even though I don’t get there in time.
I’ll just choose to purchase ammo from them in the future. A bit of loyalty. That’s all

Let me tell you about pricing “fairly”, my wife and I run a little gun shop, since all this shit has went down and ammo is a motherfucker to get from any of our distributors, yes cost of ammo has went up, so have our prices, but we’ve kept them what you call “fair”, but that fair only seems to go one way, we haven’t taken a pay check in months, just so we could keep our prices where some fuckin cocksucker wouldn’t get on the internet and bad mouth the fuck out of us, so when this shit is all through, we’ll still have customers. I understand we’re just a 2 1/2 person operation, and the big box stores are mainly the ones y’all are bitching about, but they also have mouths to feed, sometimes hundreds of them, so think about some shit before you go running someone down because their ammo is to high and your sad cause you can’t buy it all up, maybe just 1 person is happy that ctd has 1 box of 50 dollar 9mm left so he can protect his family.

 

[Davidu]

Classy rebuttal. Well done
10 Bullying Debate Techniques From Ben Shapiro

• #1. Get Under Your Opponent's Skin.
• #2. Strike When They Overreact (ie.: Gaslighting)
• #3. Convey Authority by Talking Like You're Gospel.
• #4. Ridicule Your Opponent.
• #5. Use (Or bend) Data & Statistics to Increase Your authority.
• #6. Play The Victim.
• #7. Hide Your Power Source.
• #8. Accuse Your Opponent of Your Own Faults.

You may have used them all

 

[Steve_In_29]

Who says Im not?

Hell, I had to put a TA50 cabinet into a seperate room just for ammo a few years back.

My point was, people who shoot 3-4 times a week generally use their ammo and then replenish so they're not up against a hard number to run out against.

For example, for 5.56, I'd buy cheaper 223 steel for training. Both for round count and the malfunctions it would give. If I shot 500 rounds of it that week, I'd replace it with another 500 round case, usually a second 500 round case and then my normal 1k of legit M193 that got stacked in a room. Rinse/repeat. Now I can't, and have to make a decision on, do I still shoot (I do) and eventually run into the possibility of hitting an 'end', or let everything diminish and sit around waiting on ammo.

I also have guys willing to put in alot of work to get capable and now are running into, where the fuck do they get ammo to train with? There are some workarounds I'm looking into and when we do train its generally low round counts and focusing on movement, technique and situational 'what do you do' kind of things, but this is just absurd.

I have another 'padded' feature in that I can reload a metric ton of 5.56 right now with whats on hand to stave off from me dipping into the M193 for training. But, people buying anything they can get their hands on, yet most not being able to even manipulate the weapon before I'd come and take it out of their hand, are a big part of the problem.

My biggest issue is those faggots buying anything they can in hopes of sitting on it and selling it for 10x what they bought it for. I'd have zero issue with making their ammo, my ammo.

Again I will point out that the writing was on the wall for months and there was a window to stock up ahead of time. A person paying attention (that had lived through other frenzies) would have foreseen the fact that for the near future at least, things weren't going to be normal and they WOULDN'T be able to refill 500rds at a time as it was shot up.

Failure to see that and thus plan ahead is no ones fault but your own. It's pretty elitist of you to claim that those who are lesser shooters then yourself don't deserve to stock up for themselves.

As to the people buying ammo to flip, I agree they are a problem but that has been an issue in every frenzy and a person that planned ahead would not be affected by their actions.

 

[TheGerman]

Again I will point out that the writing was on the wall for months and there was a window to stock up ahead of time. A person paying attention (that had lived through other frenzies) would have foreseen the fact that for the near future at least, things weren't going to be normal and they WOULDN'T be able to refill 500rds at a time as it was shot up.

Failure to see that and thus plan ahead is no ones fault but your own. It's pretty elitist of you to claim that those who are lesser shooters then yourself don't deserve to stock up for themselves.

As to the people buying ammo to flip, I agree they are a problem but that has been an issue in every frenzy and a person that planned ahead would not be affected by their actions.

99% of ammo bought in the last 4-6 months will never be shot by the people that bought it. I'm also willing to bet, that within that same demographic, those people now have more ammo on hand, than they do actual pulls of the trigger if you combine any shooting theyve ever done in their life.

Let me ask you this: have you ever seen, what people who end up in combat that basically have never shot a gun before look like, and how that works out for them 99.999% of the time? It's really close to those morons I keep running into that say 'oh, Im safe, I have a gun in the house if something happens or someone breaks in', yet they've never shot it/shot like 1 mag through it, and couldn't get their shit together to hit anything or to even fire the gun correctly on a range let alone when its time to go at it at 3am in their underwear, out of a dead sleep.

I'm not saying they don't 'deserve' ammo. They're just a total fucking waste in regards to buying it and just need to stop.

 

[W54/XM-388]

99% of ammo bought in the last 4-6 months will never be shot by the people that bought it. I'm also willing to bet, that within that same demographic, those people now have more ammo on hand, than they do actual pulls of the trigger if you combine any shooting theyve ever done in their life.

Let me ask you this: have you ever seen, what people who end up in combat that basically have never shot a gun before look like, and how that works out for them 99.999% of the time? It's really close to those morons I keep running into that say 'oh, Im safe, I have a gun in the house if something happens or someone breaks in', yet they've never shot it/shot like 1 mag through it, and couldn't get their shit together to hit anything or to even fire the gun correctly on a range let alone when its time to go at it at 3am in their underwear, out of a dead sleep.

I'm not saying they don't 'deserve' ammo. They're just a total fucking waste in regards to buying it and just need to stop.

As a question,
Training aside, let's say ammunition for actually if you have to use your weapon(s) to protect your life / property / neighborhood etc.
The great masses seem to say that you should have thousands of rounds of essentially ball ammo / FMJ / greentip fmj for the SHTF.

Would you think that perhaps a much lesser amount of really high quality effective ammunition of the hunting and self defense and "special use" type might be a slightly better investment, especially considering the cost of "bulk" ammo is pretty high right now. Also that you might simply not be able to do a whole lot of moving once you go above the 500 or so rounds per outing on your person / pack etc?

(And yes, I probably need to do way more training myself).

 

[TheGerman]

As a question,
Training aside, let's say ammunition for actually if you have to use your weapon(s) to protect your life / property / neighborhood etc.
The great masses seem to say that you should have thousands of rounds of essentially ball ammo / FMJ / greentip fmj for the SHTF.

Would you think that perhaps a much lesser amount of really high quality effective ammunition of the hunting and self defense and "special use" type might be a slightly better investment, especially considering the cost of "bulk" ammo is pretty high right now. Also that you might simply not be able to do a whole lot of moving once you go above the 500 or so rounds per outing on your person / pack etc?

(And yes, I probably need to do way more training myself).

That's a few answers, and everyone's situation will be different.

What's going on? Home invasion/burglers? All out ANTIFA riot turned 'lets break into their homes'? COVID20 breakout and its 10x worse with lockdowns and economic desparity than what we saw this year?

M193/855 (I vastly prefer M193) has killed a lot of people without a problem. The higher cost per round premium stuff for carbines is generally because someone is after a certain end effect like hunting, they need a barrier blind or they need to supplement a deficiency like wanting a round that will have good terminal ballistics from an SBR where M193 will be on a negative threshold within 75 yards. Other than those aspects, the premium stuff from my experience is unnecessary from a carbine/battle rifle standpoint. Precision rifles are a different animal; but Ill tell you now, if you think you'll be using a precision gun a majority of the time and hitting people at 700 yards alll day, well, there's a reason I always carried a carbine in addition to a precision gun unless I had a Mk12 with a RDS on it.

The amount of ammo will be dependant on what you're plan/mission/whats going on is. From a set defensive position, you can have ammo basically staged next to you at any of your positions. If you're out and about with a reason, you and whoever is with you, are going to need to best anticipate what you could run into, and during the planning stage, determine routes to avoid unnecessery contact that eats up rounds and has the potential for casualties as well as what would be needed for the specific 'mission' end goal; (i.e. are you assaulting something with an unknown amount of people, are you going into a structure at night that you know there are only 3 people inside, etc) as well as enough ammo to be able to break contact when you don't expect it. This rolls over into alot of training for all of the things, for each individual, that I just listed, to become competant at and know 'what do I do' when X happens instead of standing around with a dumb look on your face or just mag dumping or whatever.

This all ties in with the 'you have a gun and ammo at home' isn't a response to any of this, and why all this ammo buying is a total waste of ammo for the rest of us.

 

[KevinAU]

Let me tell you about pricing “fairly”, my wife and I run a little gun shop, since all this shit has went down and ammo is a motherfucker to get from any of our distributors, yes cost of ammo has went up, so have our prices, but we’ve kept them what you call “fair”, but that fair only seems to go one way, we haven’t taken a pay check in months, just so we could keep our prices where some fuckin cocksucker wouldn’t get on the internet and bad mouth the fuck out of us, so when this shit is all through, we’ll still have customers. I understand we’re just a 2 1/2 person operation, and the big box stores are mainly the ones y’all are bitching about, but they also have mouths to feed, sometimes hundreds of them, so think about some shit before you go running someone down because their ammo is to high and your sad cause you can’t buy it all up, maybe just 1 person is happy that ctd has 1 box of 50 dollar 9mm left so he can protect his family.

Jesus, how insecure can you get over a keyboard. Read the initial post and don’t get your fucking thong too far up your ass, this isn’t about your mom and pop gun shop. The one person who could legitimately respond with an actual intelligent answer can’t use the right tense of *you’re. Fucking

 

[JbBooks]

Jesus, how insecure can you get over a keyboard. Read the initial post and don’t get your fucking thong too far up your ass, this isn’t about your mom and pop gun shop. The one person who could legitimately respond with an actual intelligent answer can’t use the right tense of *you’re. Fucking

I’m not upset, I’m just setting the record straight, everyone wants capitalism until it’s time to do capitalist shit!!

 

[mkollman74]

So what percentage markup should be acceptable, and who gets to decide?

Still waiting for a response...

 

[rtB]

I get to decide.

You must sell me your ammo at a 20% loss. Plus shipping cost, administrative fees, licensing fees, border transition fees and green energy adjustment fees, you owe me 3.85 per round.

 

[KevinAU]

Still waiting for a response...

Technically it’s the consumer’s choice. They decide if you profit at all. No sale, no profit. It also depends on how competitive the gun/ammo shop wants to be. Some places can afford to be more affordable and thus, receive more business. Isn’t that the joy of capitalism in the first place?
At the end of the fucking day, if there is an increase in expense, there should be a margin increase to compensate for the loss of revenue, HOWEVER, if there is no loss of revenue/profit, and say you sell what you would normally in 3 weeks vs. 3 months and are out of stock for the remaining 9 weeks, then there is no reason to increase prices. That is what the OP is trying to say if I’m understanding correctly. There doesn’t seem to be any available evidence that there has been any production cost increases, thus, it seems as if SOME companies and private sellers are price gouging due to the simple fact that no one can keep their shelves stocked based on the increase in rate of sales. Unless I’m fucking missing something?
Good for you if you want to raise your prices to take advantage of low stock, but don’t fucking holler when no one wants your over priced shit. If you’re truly paying more out of pocket to get the same amount of ammo you have been getting from distributors, then increase your margin to compensate, but don’t be a dick and fuck the average consumer and current shitty times if your expense hasn’t been increased. The main point of the original post was missed by a vast majority of people who are bitching on this post. “I nEeD to PuT fOOd oN tHE TaBlee”, be capitalistic and get into mask sales or fucking hand sanitizer. I don’t believe this post was targeted at people trying to make a living by adjusting price to compensate for cost. BIG difference in gouging vs adjusting.

 

[Steve_In_29]

99% of ammo bought in the last 4-6 months will never be shot by the people that bought it. I'm also willing to bet, that within that same demographic, those people now have more ammo on hand, than they do actual pulls of the trigger if you combine any shooting theyve ever done in their life.

Let me ask you this: have you ever seen, what people who end up in combat that basically have never shot a gun before look like, and how that works out for them 99.999% of the time? It's really close to those morons I keep running into that say 'oh, Im safe, I have a gun in the house if something happens or someone breaks in', yet they've never shot it/shot like 1 mag through it, and couldn't get their shit together to hit anything or to even fire the gun correctly on a range let alone when its time to go at it at 3am in their underwear, out of a dead sleep.

I'm not saying they don't 'deserve' ammo. They're just a total fucking waste in regards to buying it and just need to stop.

Not a single thing you wrote has ANY bearing on whether others should buy ammo or not. Their level of training or experience as a shooter is immaterial.

It still boils down to your elitist feeling that you are somehow more entitled to the ammo then other lesser gun owners.

That they should stop buying so that you can continue life as you have become accustomed to.

As I said, it showed poor planning on your part that you failed to stock up to meet your needs when you had a chance and are now simply whinning about the unfairness of it all.

 

[squishee]

Not a single thing you wrote has ANY bearing on whether others should buy ammo or not. Their level of training or experience as a shooter is immaterial.

It still boils down to your elitist feeling that you are somehow more entitled to the ammo then other lesser gun owners.

That they should stop buying so that you can continue life as you have become accustomed to.

As I said, it showed poor planning on your part that you failed to stock up to meet your needs when you had a chance and are now simply whinning about the unfairness of it all.

Did you really think @TheGerman didnt stock up?

 

[ToddM]

Honestly it doesn't matter why it happens, if it's right or wrong, it's reality, and with Vista already having a $1 billion ammo backorder log that will take them over a year to fill, it ain't changing anytime soon, and I'm talking 2022 if not 2025. My only regret is I didn't buy a few extra pallets to sell now. I get not wanting to support shops that jack prices up, I won't either, but over the last 20 years of reading I'm sure hundreds of posts how people will never support CTD, I also know it won't impact their business one bit, CTD is still doing fine, and they probably will be in another 20 years too.

Consumers hold all the power, but are too stupid as a group to wield it in their own favor. The only thing you can impact is mitigating the issue, a year ago people on the forums were saying this was going to happen, even ammo shops were predicting this and passing on the info to customers. The first 3 years of Trump were some of the cheapest ammo prices between sales/rebates since the early 2000's. Anyone that went through Obama knew this was coming and we had lots of time and cheap prices to prepare. Everyone has different levels of means to stock up but shooters, unless new to the gun world, literally had 3 years and dirt cheap prices to prepare as much as they could.

The funny part to me is that shooters flip their shit when ammo prices go up, but happily line up to buy $2000 chassis, $800 bipods, $500 scope mounts, $150 plastic scope covers, $400 soft rifle cases, $1500 tripods, $200 stamped magazine, $300 muzzle brakes and the list goes on. We're lucky that ammo companies didn't wake up a decade ago and go "Man shooters are paying ridiculous prices for their guns, optics and accessories these days, they're building $6k 22LR "trainers"......we need to start jacking our prices up and get in on this!"

 

[TheGerman]

Not a single thing you wrote has ANY bearing on whether others should buy ammo or not. Their level of training or experience as a shooter is immaterial.

It still boils down to your elitist feeling that you are somehow more entitled to the ammo then other lesser gun owners.

That they should stop buying so that you can continue life as you have become accustomed to.

As I said, it showed poor planning on your part that you failed to stock up to meet your needs when you had a chance and are now simply whinning about the unfairness of it all.

You're still not getting this part.

I have enough ammo to retake Paris.

It has nothing to do with my stock. I literally outlined EXACTLY why this thread exists.

 

[Sniperwannabee]

You're still not getting this part.

I have enough ammo to retake Paris.

It has nothing to do with my stock. I literally outlined EXACTLY why this thread exists.

can I borrow some, ill pay you back when the price settles out

 

[squishee]

Mox nix!

 

[Seed tick]

FNG!! Germans got more experience in this shit then you could get in 10 lifetimes!!

 

[kenny1773]

Do I need to build an addition on to the house for storage to stock up enough? Maybe park a conex box in the back yard to hold enough?

I say this as someone that did stock up, but I can't easily stock up enough to ride out 4 years. I can maybe ride out a year or so with what I consider 'stocked up'.

I cannot retake Paris with what I have, but perhaps I can secure a pound of brie and a baguette

I could live like a hoarder I guess and just have little paths through my house will ammo boxes stacked floor to ceiling. I would not consider that normal though.

I feel like I am in the minority here

I guess most posting here have 4-5 years of ammo on hand at all times? and The German has 15 to 20 years?

 

[gimpy]

You're still not getting this part.

I have enough ammo to retake Paris.

It has nothing to do with my stock. I literally outlined EXACTLY why this thread exists.

No offense to you, but I’m betting Paris could be taken with a minimal usage of ammo

 

[TheGerman]

No offense to you, but I’m betting Paris could be taken with a minimal usage of ammo

Ok, maybe its a bad example.

But I somehow always go straight to retaking Paris.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Ok, maybe its a bad example.

But I somehow always go straight to retaking Paris.

The old saying used to go something like "Enough firepower to convert Baghdad to Christ".

 

[Steve_In_29]

Did you really think @TheGerman didnt stock up?

Apparent;y not enough, as he is in here whining about all the people buying up the ammo he NEEDS.

 

[Steve_In_29]

You're still not getting this part.

I have enough ammo to retake Paris.

It has nothing to do with my stock. I literally outlined EXACTLY why this thread exists.

Yet here you are in it complaining about how you are more deserving to buy the ammo that other "lesser" shooters are preventing you from getting. That they should stop so that YOU can buy it.

If you are so stocked up then why are you even opening your mouth on the subject?

 

[DangerRanger]

Which we gonna bitch about today, ammo being out of stock everywhere or ammo being in stock but too high.

Pick one

 

[mkollman74]

Technically it’s the consumer’s choice. They decide if you profit at all. No sale, no profit. It also depends on how competitive the gun/ammo shop wants to be. Some places can afford to be more affordable and thus, receive more business. Isn’t that the joy of capitalism in the first place?
At the end of the fucking day, if there is an increase in expense, there should be a margin increase to compensate for the loss of revenue, HOWEVER, if there is no loss of revenue/profit, and say you sell what you would normally in 3 weeks vs. 3 months and are out of stock for the remaining 9 weeks, then there is no reason to increase prices. That is what the OP is trying to say if I’m understanding correctly. There doesn’t seem to be any available evidence that there has been any production cost increases, thus, it seems as if SOME companies and private sellers are price gouging due to the simple fact that no one can keep their shelves stocked based on the increase in rate of sales. Unless I’m fucking missing something?
Good for you if you want to raise your prices to take advantage of low stock, but don’t fucking holler when no one wants your over priced shit. If you’re truly paying more out of pocket to get the same amount of ammo you have been getting from distributors, then increase your margin to compensate, but don’t be a dick and fuck the average consumer and current shitty times if your expense hasn’t been increased. The main point of the original post was missed by a vast majority of people who are bitching on this post. “I nEeD to PuT fOOd oN tHE TaBlee”, be capitalistic and get into mask sales or fucking hand sanitizer. I don’t believe this post was targeted at people trying to make a living by adjusting price to compensate for cost. BIG difference in gouging vs adjusting.

My point is that gouging doesn't exist because you can't define it. If I want to charge $1,000,000/1000 .22lr that's my choice. If you don't think that's a reasonable price, then , wait for it... DON'T BUY MY STUFF...! You have no right to buy what I have. Fight me.

 

[MarshallDodge]

There isn't such a thing a price gouging in a free market. There are markets in this country that are controlled but ammo is not one of them. Do you want the government to step in and put limits on what you can sell your product for? Or how much you can buy, Komrade?

I love to shoot and have invested in supplies to keep on the shelf for times like these. My experience with gun/ammo panics started way back in the early 90's when Clinton was elected.

If Biden wins, it is going to take at least 4 years for this thing to subside. If you are patient, you will be able to find things at reasonable prices.

 

[Charger442]

There isn't such a thing a price gouging in a free market. There are markets in this country that are controlled but ammo is not one of them. Do you want the government to step in and put limits on what you can sell your product for? Or how much you can buy, Komrade?

I love to shoot and have invested in supplies to keep on the shelf for times like these. My experience with gun/ammo panics started way back in the early 90's when Clinton was elected.

If Biden wins, it is going to take at least 4 years for this thing to subside. If you are patient, you will be able to find things at reasonable prices.

or sell... sell... sell.

 

[wilson1911]

FFS peeps, either buy ammo or not. Of all things to be griping about going on atm and

 

[Davidu]

The AMMO SHORTAGE OF 2020 is kind of weird/funny unless you are shooting competitively for a living. Those folks are probably sponsored and have all they need. I got an alert at 2:47 this morning that Bass Pro had 6.5 CM 147 ELD Match so I run to get cc info and order before it’s out of stock. I just had to laugh at myself !

 

[kenny1773]

My point is that gouging doesn't exist because you can't define it.

Most states would disagree with you as they have laws named as such. The thing is, AMMO does not apply

only posting taxes because it came up first, here is an example for you

How to Spot and Report Price Gouging | Office of the Attorney General

Price gouging is illegal, and the Office of the Attorney General has authority to prosecute any business that engages in price gouging after a disaster has been declared by the governor or president. The attorney general has issued stern warnings about price gouging to businesses in times of...

www.texasattorneygeneral.gov

.

 

[kenny1773]

I think the problem is the term Price Gouging is being used incorrectly.

If I go out on the free market right now, I can find 9mm ammo for about 60 cents per round
That price RIGHT NOW is not price gouging how most think (and is 100% certainly NOT price gouging in a legal sense in any state)

Anywhere from 50 cents per round to maybe 70 cents per round is the new normal for lower end 9mm range ammo (I am not talking about anything else, 'basic simple range ammo') That price range I just posted varies by the hour

If someone like say Cheaper Than Dirt chooses to charge $1.00 + a round for basic simple 9mm range ammo, they are pricing themselves way beyond what the current market says the price should be

My point? There is the new normal price that one can find with simple research of the volume of sellers in the current market, then there are the places that are taking advantage of the uneducated.

I think taking advantage of the uneducated is a better way to word it. instead of price gouging.


New normal (for this minute today) 54 cents per round

taking advantage $1 round

 

[ToddM]

I think that's one thing that has changed since the Obama panic buying, instead of every retailer being out of stock for months with the majority selling at normal prices, we now see plenty of places with stock, but you are going to pay ~$.70 a round for factory new brass 9mm, and purchase limits. It seems many more stores this time around have stock, but they are keeping it by charging high enough prices that is limiting demand.

The average shooter walks in a store and sees 9mm for $10/box right now, they are going to wipe the store out if they can. However if they walk in and it's $30-$35 a box most are only going to buy what they really need. No one, except those with unlimited funding, are going to stockpile for months/years at those prices.

Not sure what the lesser evil is, paying higher ammo prices but at least being able to buy ammo, or paying cheap prices but having to go for months without being able to buy any. Thankfully I saw this coming years ago, but even then there's no way I can stockpile a lifetime of ammo. That would have required being independently wealthy even at ammo prices 2 years ago and having a couple climate controlled conex boxes to store it in.

 

[1moaoff]

can I borrow some, ill pay you back when the price settles out

So does this men my 5000 red cases of rhis I have stacked deep are all worth almost 15$k each... if i throw it at strippers will they make change?

 

[WaltHer]

Following the reelection of Barack Obama and the Sandyhook Shooting, the owner of my LGS provided his rationale for the increased prices he was forced to charge. He explained that once he sold off his existing stocks of ammo, firearms, magazines, etc, he was left with no short-term way to resupply his own inventory. So, he felt that each item that was sold and could not be easily replaced was going to have to help him cover his expenses for the next 90 days. In his estimation, it would take at least that 90 days for orders already in the manufacturer/shipping pipeline to arrive. Additionally, with the unknown outcome from the legislative and social initiatives being thrown around, he was also forced to look at those sales as his going-out-of-business/retirement fund all at once. In short, there are many reasons for the price 'gouging' currently going on. Some may be simply greed, but others may be more holistic. In the end, however, for now, something is only worth what someone else will pay for it. As a corollary, in the end you either have shit or you don't.

 

[Sgt47]

Not everyone is gouging. My son just scored 200 rds of 6.5 CM for $179. Not Match but AmGunner which pre apocalypse was $149. This was at a local farm supply that previously had empty shelves.

 

[BytorJr]

The AMMO SHORTAGE OF 2020 is kind of weird/funny unless you are shooting competitively for a living. Those folks are probably sponsored and have all they need. I got an alert at 2:47 this morning that Bass Pro had 6.5 CM 147 ELD Match so I run to get cc info and order before it’s out of stock. I just had to laugh at myself !

I had 2 boxes of 147g ELD Match from Sportsman's physically in my hand...but then I was like..WTF....2 bucks a round. Forget it. I don't need a top-off that badly.

 

[Steel head]

It’s only gouging if you buy it.

 

[BytorJr]

Not everyone is gouging. My son just scored 200 rds of 6.5 CM for $179. Not Match but AmGunner which pre apocalypse was $149. This was at a local farm supply that previously had empty shelves.

That's awesome actually. I did the math on some Norma 223 77g SMK's. 540 today, in August (yes..August) 420. Yet, I found some 308 Lake City 2 weeks ago for only slightly higher than it was in the past. Out of curiosity, I looked at 30 carbine today...pre-Obama it was cheap (240-250 IRRC for 1000) Then it jumped to about 300-350/1000. Buds had it on sale for 389. Not too terribly bad considering the state we're in. It's the Korean stuff. I think Outdoor Limited had it for 330 or 350 in August too. So it's at least Korean Mil-Spec. It gets good reviews as well.

It's going to be a LONG time before we see ammo go back down. If biden actually gets in, it may be never; but even with Trump in, I'd say 3 years is likely. Granted, the demand will almost vaporize, but since there is absolutely no supply I'd say I'm close to accurate in time estimatation.

 

[mkollman74]

Most states would disagree with you as they have laws named as such. The thing is, AMMO does not apply

only posting taxes because it came up first, here is an example for you

How to Spot and Report Price Gouging | Office of the Attorney General

Price gouging is illegal, and the Office of the Attorney General has authority to prosecute any business that engages in price gouging after a disaster has been declared by the governor or president. The attorney general has issued stern warnings about price gouging to businesses in times of...

www.texasattorneygeneral.gov

.

§17.46(b) of the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices-Consumer Protection Act provides that it is a false, misleading or deceptive act or practice to take advantage of a disaster declared by the Governor under Chapter 418, Government Code, or the President by:

1. Selling or leasing fuel, food, medicine, lodging, building materials, construction tools, or another necessity at an exorbitant or excessive price;

I remain undeterred... This doesn't define gouging in the slightest. Per the language above, I still say you cannot define "exorbitant" or "excessive" . Who gets to decide how much profit is too much? Are they the same people who get to decide what your maximum salary should be...?

 

[mkollman74]

Technically it’s the consumer’s choice. They decide if you profit at all. No sale, no profit. It also depends on how competitive the gun/ammo shop wants to be. Some places can afford to be more affordable and thus, receive more business. Isn’t that the joy of capitalism in the first place?
At the end of the fucking day, if there is an increase in expense, there should be a margin increase to compensate for the loss of revenue, HOWEVER, if there is no loss of revenue/profit, and say you sell what you would normally in 3 weeks vs. 3 months and are out of stock for the remaining 9 weeks, then there is no reason to increase prices. That is what the OP is trying to say if I’m understanding correctly. There doesn’t seem to be any available evidence that there has been any production cost increases, thus, it seems as if SOME companies and private sellers are price gouging due to the simple fact that no one can keep their shelves stocked based on the increase in rate of sales. Unless I’m fucking missing something?
Good for you if you want to raise your prices to take advantage of low stock, but don’t fucking holler when no one wants your over priced shit. If you’re truly paying more out of pocket to get the same amount of ammo you have been getting from distributors, then increase your margin to compensate, but don’t be a dick and fuck the average consumer and current shitty times if your expense hasn’t been increased. The main point of the original post was missed by a vast majority of people who are bitching on this post. “I nEeD to PuT fOOd oN tHE TaBlee”, be capitalistic and get into mask sales or fucking hand sanitizer. I don’t believe this post was targeted at people trying to make a living by adjusting price to compensate for cost. BIG difference in gouging vs adjusting.

A perfect example of an imperfect understanding. I agree with you when you say that it is the consumer's choice. That is the end of the conversation. A retailer can price their inventory however they wish. There doesn't need to be any reason for how they do so. "Available evidence" as you say is not required. If you don't like the price move on...

 

[Steve_In_29]

FNG!! Germans got more experience in this shit then you could get in 10 lifetimes!!

Take your "FNG" and shove it where the sun don't shine. I might be new to the forum but I am FAR from new to shooting or life.

61yo
Former Marine (77-95)
Disabled combat vet (Beirut/Somalia)
2 years in JSOC
Have shot competitively out to 1000yds
At one point I was shooting over 15K rds a year just for fun

 

[OldSalty2]

Ammo is still available.

Yes, its more expensive.

Think about how cheap ya was getting it last year.

Here a mental gymnastics justification i use to trick myself. i call it the circus justification.

Say someone got 1000rd of 9mm 115 fmj for 150 sometime last year Today they bought that same for 900.

Basically, 2000rds for 1050. That comes out to .52/rd (still shit, but). Now if you bought thousands and thousands of cheap then buying now might be easier to swallow, but thats a personal thing i suppose.

If you didnt buy when cheap, then buying today will feel like shit. Pretty much, but it is still available. Its like timing any durable good market.

Im of the opinion that current ammo prices are here to stay, for a variety of reasons.

People here laughed at me several months ago when i said 22LR will likely never be cheaper. Probably not much "hahaha" now. you could see by way 9mm and 223/556 was trending it was only a matter of time before every caliber was impacted...

Anyways, it is imo if you have the means it is still a good idea to buy when you see decent (relative today) deals. Yes, you may lose money if it goes back to pre-manufactured crisis levels. But, it will still hold some value. Its a risk, a gamble, sure.

Plus, if you shoot fairly frequently (not hardcore ops training) then the value is also detemined by how much enjoyment you get from it. How much is that worth to you?

Anyways. I found some 75gr bthp 223 that im putting into a cart right now.

 

[kenny1773]

I remain undeterred... This doesn't define gouging in the slightest. Per the language above, I still say you cannot define "exorbitant" or "excessive" . Who gets to decide how much profit is too much? Are they the same people who get to decide what your maximum salary should be...?

My bad, Texas was a horrible example as those dumb asses are leaving it up to opinion. Texas, shame on you, and shame on me for using the first search link without diving in too deep.

If you search this out yourself state by state you will find the answer, I think you really just don't want to know. Your kings and queens get to decide as always in government matters. Your employer decides your salary so not sure that comment has an relevance at all to the discussion.

How about Alabama (the last state I would expect to put math to it LOL)

Alabama’s price gouging law is known as the Alabama Unconscionable Pricing Act it is triggered in a state of emergency.

Here are some basic facts about the law:

• What is considered price gouging: 25% or more price increase
• When price gouging laws apply: During a state of emergency
• Products or services the law applies to: All
• Lookback period for price comparisons: 30 days prior to declared state of emergency
• Penalty: Civil penalty of $1,000 per violation; maximum $25,000

Is looking back 30 days prior to declared state of emergency (must have a declared state of emergency), find that price, add 25%, see today's price is more than 25% greater, precise enough?
Sure you could continue to question that, you can question the selection of the % used, in which case you need to go ask your governor.

Again not applicable to AMMO

 

[mkollman74]

My bad, Texas was a horrible example as those dumb asses are leaving it up to opinion. Texas, shame on you, and shame on me for using the first search link without diving in too deep.

If you search this out yourself state by state you will find the answer, I think you really just don't want to know. Your kings and queens get to decide as always in government matters. Your employer decides your salary so not sure that comment has an relevance at all to the discussion.

How about Alabama (the last state I would expect to put math to it LOL)



Is looking back 30 days prior to declared state of emergency (must have a declared state of emergency), find that price, add 25%, see today's price is more than 25% greater, precise enough?
Sure you could continue to question that, you can question the selection of the % used, in which case you need to go ask your governor.

Again not applicable to AMMO

My point about the salary is that is YOUR personal profit. The point is that nobody should be able to arbitrarily limit your salary (its between you and your employer) and nobody should be able to limit the profit somebody selling something makes (that's between a buyer and seller). I have no doubt that various states get quite precise in their definition of gouging. I say gouging does not exist because I can sell anything I want for whatever price I want.

 

[kenny1773]

My point about the salary is that is YOUR personal profit. The point is that nobody should be able to arbitrarily limit your salary (its between you and your employer) and nobody should be able to limit the profit somebody selling something makes (that's between a buyer and seller). I have no doubt that various states get quite precise in their definition of gouging. I say gouging does not exist because I can sell anything I want for whatever price I want.

FFS this isn't hard to understand at all

You own a gas station in Alabama, today (and for the last 45 days) you sell gas for $2/gallon. A Cat 4 storm rolls in and wipes out the area. The gov declares a state of emergency

Everyone is desperate for gas to run their generators and will pay anything to get it. 2 days later you decide to raise the price of gas at your gas station to $8/gallon, cause you know you can do whatever the fuck you want

Did you violate the Alabama Unconscionable Pricing Act ?
(as quoted in post #150, known as alabamas anti price gouging law)

Do not bother to reply with anything more than yes or no