Amsec, Fort Knox, Superior, others?

Genius.

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Jun 4, 2012
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I would have never thought picking out a safe would be as hard as it is. Much harder than picking out a firearm, at least I can test drive firearms....

I need a gun safe, the pelican cases stacked up and the glass door gun cabinet don't cut it anymore, especially with a 3&5 year old. So the past month I have been pulling my hair out looking for a safe.

My big requirements are it needs to have a mechanical lock, I'm looking at 60 min minimum fire rating and it needs to be USA made.

This weekend I went to various stores to look at the safes first hand and would like opinions on what you feel is the best.

One dealer who I'd really like to give my business to (spent alot of time with me, even stayed after hours on a Saturday because I couldn't get there during normal hours). He carries Amsec, Fort Knox and Herritage.

The Amsec series I am interested in is the BF series
The Fort Knox series was the Defender series
I forget the Heratige model line up.

Then another store I went to carries Liberty, Superior and Champion safes. Now, unless any of these safes are far better than the prior ones, I'd rather not give them my business, they would not give me the time of day, I had to ask for a salesman and his sales pitch was "here are the brochures, and the prices are on the safes".....


Them one website I found seems to have great prices on safes, almost to good to be true...
http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/features.htm
Anyone have any experience with theirs?

I guess one bonus of ordering online is no sales tax, and that can add up on a safe.
 
Check out the Browning safes while you're at it. They make some of the best but they aren't cheap. Many levels of security and fireproofing. There's no comparison with the quality of Browning's interiors with the stuff I see at local dealers. Many dealers who don't carry them in stock can order them for you at a substantial discount on the prices listed on the Browning website, i.e. Gander Mountain. The safe can be drop shipped to the dealer who will then bring it out for installation. Also, Browning's site can list dealers in your area.

And take my word for it, if they say it will hold X number of long guns, they'll all have to be lever guns to get that many in there. Scopes, bolt knobs, bipods, etc all reduce the number of guns you can get in there. Buy room for expansion or you'll regret it down the road.
 
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Check out the Browning safes while you're at it. They make some of the best but they aren't cheap. Many levels of security and fireproofing. There's no comparison with the quality of Browning's interiors with the stuff I see at local dealers. Many dealers who don't carry them in stock can order them for you at a substantial discount on the prices listed on the Browning website, i.e. Gander Mountain. The safe can be drop shipped to the dealer who will then bring it out for installation. Also, Browning's site can list dealers in your area.

.

Are Browning safes American made?

I assumed they were Chinese offerings.

every browning marked knife, flashlight and whatnot that I see I the shelf all have Made in china stamped on the package.
 
I went through this 3 years ago. I settled on the AMSEC. their poured lining is the tits. The fort knox corner bolts look cool, but dont be fooled by them. They provide no more security than doors without corner bolts. I have an AMSEC BF series, and wouldnt hesitate to buy another one. Buy the biggest one you can fit in your desired location. I wish I would of got one2 sizes bigger.
 
I know this isn't in your question but if you have money to spend you could always have a machine/welding shop fabricate one for you. It would be much more expensive but it is the only way to get good thick solid stainless steel that won't be cut with a torch easily. Yes you can get stainless in some safes even solid sheets but none that are very thick. If you go the welding shop way make sure you ask about weight because you might ended up with something only a forklift can move and can only be set on concrete.
 
I've been there! Yes the research is exhausting, but worth it.
Half the battle is stripping away all the fancy advertising and comparing what really matters... steel thickness/layers and fireproofing. Thats all that really matters. Remember your "investing in a safe, not "buying" one. I recommend Visalia, Sturdy gun safes, Ft. Knox, Amsec. Stay away from "composite" doors. And don't forget BOLT IT TO THE FOUNDATION!!!
 
Buying a safe is a pain in the ass. Make sure you research the definitions of: residential security container, the UL ratings of TL,TR,TX and the break in times, and the Class A,B,C,ect safes. It is confusing and more than one could write here. It has been said over and over, buy bigger than you need...but remember contingencies. I have a Ft Knox. I really like it. It is a 7241? or something like that. It weighs a little over a ton. Moving that thing is an act of congress. If I had a Graf the same size it would be 5000lbs or better. If you ever move it, can you put up with the cost/ ass pain of moving it, do you have a place structurally sound to put it?

If I was looking for a safe right now I would go with the Amsec HS safes. They are twice as secure as my FT Knox at the same price. My Ft Knox has doubled in price since I bought it. On another note, keep in mind the finish. If it is something that has to be in a living room or the like, do you want to be looking at a big rock looking square or something more pleasing to the eye. Big safes kinda dominate the room.
 
Is it recommended getting someone in to move a safe upstairs?

We decided the safe will be going in our master bedroom.

I called our local rental shops and the largest carts they have are only rated for 750 lbs. I'm Dutch, and if I can do something myself to safe money ill do it, but I'm thinking moving a 1000+ pound safe could be potentionaly dangerous.
 
I've have been thinking of getting a larger safe too. Presently have a Liberty safe and it's been fine but I'm outgrowing it. Looking at all the safe vids and sites and I'm considering a Sturdy safe http://www.sturdysafe.com/ I like the idea of making/upgrading the safe, extra steel, insulation etc, so I know how it's made and what's in the construction. Any thoughts on this ?
As an aside I thought the Zanotti take down is a good idea for those who move a lot http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/10/the-zanotti-take-down-safe/
Thanks
 
if moving it yourself, like upstairs...you could always take the door off to save some weight on your dolly. In my next house, when I pour the foundation, I plan on pouring a vault room, with concrete / rebar walls and ceilings, and buying a vault door. Its only cost effective if you do it when the foundation is poured though. I would vomit at the cost of doing it after the fact.
 
If you plan on putting it upstairs double check your measurements to ensure you can get it up there, including the turning radius in the hall, bedroom door, and landing if you have one. Also make sure your floor will support the weight, 1000 lbs is alot for 12 sq ft.
 
Genius,
Shopping for a safe is a major pain. I finally pulled the trigger on a BF6636, AMSEC. I'd been looking for so long I just got tired of shopping. I've had it for a month now.

It was as much of a safety issue as security.

The one I got came standard with a mechanical dial combination lock. It is a Chinese clone of an S&G. There is probably nothing wrong with it. AMSEC offers an electronic lock upgrade, not that I wanted one. I called around and talked to a few different locksmiths, who didn't have a dog in the fight, and they all recommended the S&G combination lock. IIRC it is a model 6730. So, I had the safe dealer swap the locks out for me.

I guess it's OK. I mean it's here now and paid for so I'd better like it!
The inside is nice, put together well. The door storage is nice to have too. I do wonder about the Velcro pistol holsters letting go. I'd be pissed if something fell. I can tell right now that I'm going to have to come up with something more secure.

I don't regret my decision to purchase this safe one bit.

B
 
Think long and hard about putting a large safe upstairs in a stick framed house. Fires burn much hotter on the second floor. If the house burns down your very heavy safe with all the stuff you consider valuable has to endure very high temperatures, then a two story fall, ruining your stuff. If your house is not completely burnt down and it is structurally damaged then you have a deadfall trap of your own making. Firemen really don't like heavy steel objects falling on them either.
 
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We have two safes currently, a 35 sf Liberty Lincoln and a 55 sf Superior Supreme. Absolute high end safe would be a Graffunder but you'll also pay top dollar for it. I'd say Browning, Liberty, and Superior are pretty much a tie depending on the model and are the ones I've recommended to others. Superior was started by former Liberty employees and is probably the best bang for the buck. Always go for S&G mechanical vs electronic, decide if you want the door to swing 90 or 180, and the rest of the info folks above already mentioned and you'll be well-served.
 
Is it recommended getting someone in to move a safe upstairs?

Please don't move a safe yourself. Any decent one is going to be heavy and if they get away from you on a flight of stairs, etc. you can be injured or killed. I am a registered safe tech as a hobby of mine and even I don't go about moving safes myself. I know other safe techs with permanent injuries from falling safes, etc. Get people with the right rigging gear, experience and insurance to do it. It's just not worth the risk. If you have a 750+lbs. safe get away from you on a flight of stairs it is going to be bad business. Assuming you don't get crushed to death, the thing could go through the wall at the bottom. You will have nowhere to run when it happens either.

Again, for a value safe the Amsec BF is almost impossible to beat. It has a real 1/2" plate steel door, 2 inches of a lightweight poured cement barrier material that is very fire resistant, but also resists burglar attacks. They also have I believe a 10 Gauge interior wall as well for the last defense. They are a real safe. Many gun safes are not very good. They take drywall and wrap thin sheet metal around it to make it look thicker. Then they give them a nice paint job. The Amsec is not as pretty, but when you have a couple meth tweekers beating on it you won't care (and the paint will be ruined anyway). For fire protection, the BF series safe is leaps ahead of the competitors. The poured material forms a very strong heat barrier.

I recommend Graffunder and the Amsec BF series as the two top choices. Graffunders are expensive, but very strong. The BF though is a very good safe and I'd feel just about as good having that as I would a B-Rate Graffunder holding my valuables. And that's saying something because the Graffunder is a really good safe that is 3X the cost of the BF series safe.

If you need more protection, then you need to consider the Amsec HS series that are UL listed burglar safes. Or you can move up to a heavier Graffunder C-Rate or even E-Rate. They are beasts, but I see almost no chance a typical burglar is going to get into one. The will need specialized tools and knowledge to pull it off. Even the B-Rate Graffunder is going to be extremely difficult to enter without power tools and tons of time (both of which a burglar doesn't have).

Lastly, get the S&G mechanical lock. They almost never fail. Electronic locks are convenient, but tend to have more lockout problems.
 
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I also posted about this topic in the past here:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/showthread.php?t=26665&p=384528&viewfull=1#post384528

This is what I said and I still stand by it almost four years later:

XOR said:
I am in the safe business so let me add a few things here.

The best gun safe when price is no object are from Graffunder. I've seen a lot of gun safes and I don't think anything compares to them. They start at a insurance "B" rating (1/2" plate steel door and 1/4" walls) and go up to E Rate which is 1 1/2" plate steel door with 1" walls as well as custom options. They use a poured concrete-like fire liner giving even their 1/4" wall safes about 2" of thickness and a good burglary and fire resistance. Thicker safes offer even better protection:

http://www.graffundersafes.com

The best gun safe for people on a budget are the Amsec BF Series Safes. They have an honest 1/2" plate steel door and also have a poured light concrete fire liner and inner steel wall giving the safes also almost 2" of protection from fire and burglars. Their HS series safes are even heavier and feature a true UL listed burglary rating from a TL-15 to TL-30 (Tool resistant ratings):

BF Series safes start at around the mid-1000s and go up from there:

http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-BF-main.htm

The HS series are higher priced, but much heavier safes:

http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm

Amsec is a true safe company. What I mean by that is they make commercial safes for their primary business. The BF series Amsec safe is FAR more secure than even the best major brand gun safe you commonly see.

The Graffunder can be had for the price of the high-end mainstream safes you see and completely blows them out of the water in terms of fit, finish and security. There is no comparison.

Electronic locks vs. Mechanical. Honestly there isn't much difference in overall security for most applications. Burglars don't manipulate locks open. They tend to attack them with hand or power tools. I've never seen a safe professionally drilled open by a burglar to bypass the lock. It takes many thousands of dollars in specialized equipment, drill bits, bore scopes and knowledge to do this and the average meth tweaker just doesn't have these things.

What they do have though are those power tools you left in your garage next to your safe and that big crow bar you left leaning up against the wall next to the sledgehammer. So worry more about how much steel your safe has on the door and walls and not whether they are going to bypass the lock. Make sure the safe you have in your home can withstand the power tools you also have there because they can, and often are, used to attack safes.

With that said, my personal opinion are mechanical Group I type locks (manipulation resistant) are the most secure and also the least likely to break (no motors and solenoids to go bad). HOWEVER, they are not as fast to get into either. If you want a reliable electronic lock I'd lean towards the LaGard brand and would avoid the Sargent and Greenleaf electronic locks (although their mechanical locks are great). Other electronic lock brands fall between these two extremes for reliability. IMO. In short: Electronic locks = convenience. Mechanical locks = reliability. You have to pick one or the other. Mechanical locks can fail and cause a lockout, but this is far more common with electronic locks.

Bolt down your safe. I don't really care how heavy it is unless it's something more than a couple thousand pounds. I've seen very large safes stolen. It happens all the time. If someone got the safe into your house, then it can be gotten out. One man with an appliance dolly can remove a typical gun safe if you think about it. So go to the hardware store and spend 10 bucks on some anchor bolts and tie that thing down to your foundation. Any safe, no matter how strong, is going to be opened if the crooks get it back to their own shop and have time to work on it.

Safes are lightening rods for burglars and you can be sure that if they come across your safe when in your home it's going to draw more than casual attention. So that means you need it to be able to withstand protracted and perhaps brutal attacks for many minutes, or perhaps longer. The only way to make sure this can happen is for the safe to have lots of steel in it and perhaps some concrete of some type. The Graffunder and Amsec safes do this. Other safe brands you commonly see do not. Be sure to bolt these other safes down as that will increase their protection.

You should also place your safe out of obvious view (for instance I wouldn't put it in a garage where someone could see it from the street). I also would tend to put it in a corner with perhaps the opening edge closer to the wall (so door opens away from the wall and not towards it). Why? Because by doing so you make it harder for someone to get pry tools to work on the opening edge with the wall in the way. It's much harder for them to get leverage as they will hit the wall when putting the biting edge of a crow bar on the opening side.

Bolt Work: Honestly this is just a marketing gimmick. More bolts does not mean a safe is more secure necessarily. It may just mean it's more prone to failure as there are more linkages to go bad. I've worked on very large high security Jeweler's safes with just eight bolts (insured to hold $1,000,000+ in jewels). There is no way that these gun safes with 32+ bolts on them are more secure than those jeweler's safes. So don't worry about number of bolts. Worry about how much steel that thing has in the walls and door.

Other things in a safe to avoid are people claiming that internal hinges are "more secure." This is a myth. Hinges on a properly designed safe just keep the door from falling on your foot when it opens. They shouldn't affect security if cut off. I'm also leery of putting in those electric dehumidifiers just in case they have a problem and ignite everything inside your safe. I also wouldn't store my ammo in the safe as it could cause problems during a fire.

In closing, gun safe companies put out a lot of hyperbole. The thing that matters most is whether the safe has lots of steel in the door and walls and whether they are using a poured insulating layer for fire protection and not drywall. Most gun safes do not have these features. The Graffunder and Amsec BF and higher series safes do.
 
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Hate to say this but unless you are looking at the pinnacle series Browning safes they aren't that great. Just like most things Browning you are paying for the name. Thier website states that the pinnacel series has a 3/8" body which is pretty good, but every other series of thier safes state 10 guage at best and drywall fire insulation. If you do your homework you'll soon find out that browning safes aren't really a great value.

That being said, listen to the guys that sell safes (but arean't trying to sell you a safe). If you have a $10k to spend you can really get yourself into something nice. If your are on a budget AMSEC BF series is a great value as well as Sturdy. Anything that is sold in a big box store is going to leave you wanted more.
 
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As a Locksmith/Safetech I can tell you you won't go wrong with AMSEC. They have excellent warrenty and there service is outstanding. Liberty is also good depending on the model selected. I do warranty and service work on most manufacturers in my area. Always remember, "You get what you PAY for".

Also stay with the mechanical locks. Like I tell my customers, "I love Electronic Locks, they make me loads of money... I'll never own one though."

If you have any questions drop me a PM and I'll answer best I can.
 
As a Locksmith/Safetech I can tell you you won't go wrong with AMSEC. They have excellent warrenty and there service is outstanding. Liberty is also good depending on the model selected. I do warranty and service work on most manufacturers in my area. Always remember, "You get what you PAY for".

Also stay with the mechanical locks. Like I tell my customers, "I love Electronic Locks, they make me loads of money... I'll never own one though."

If you have any questions drop me a PM and I'll answer best I can.

Well John the thing with electronic locks is that I can open them in about 1/10 the time it takes me to open a mechanical lock. I can open them in the dark by feel. I can open them while I am watching the door. Some day, if I have a problem I may need to have you come to my house and help me. But in the meantime, I would not want anything I might need quickly behind a mechanical lock.
 
Well John the thing with electronic locks is that I can open them in about 1/10 the time it takes me to open a mechanical lock. I can open them in the dark by feel. I can open them while I am watching the door. Some day, if I have a problem I may need to have you come to my house and help me. But in the meantime, I would not want anything I might need quickly behind a mechanical lock.

That is the biggest selling point for the electronic locks, easy to use. Alot of owners never have a problem throughout the life of the safe.

Best advice I can give to a electronic lock owner. When you have a problem, change the battery first, it fixes 95% of the problems. Use Duracell or Energizers only.
 
I have seen that Ft.Knox offers what they call a "redundant lock" system. The safe has both an electronic lock and mechanical lock. If the electronic lock fails then you can use the mechanical and still get in. I called AMSEC today and they no longer offer this option I was told.
 
That is one way around lock failure, a lot of Vault doors (talking bank type here) use a similar setup where 1 of 2 or even 2 of 3 locks will open the door. When your dealing with a door of that type that costs 1000's$ of dollars to open when something fails you want a failsafe setup.

It all comes down to money, what you can spend on what you perceive the risk to be. 99.95% of people who try to break into a safe don't have a clue about how to do it and do nothing but damage the safe and fail to get in. The other .05%... nothing you can do can keep a professional out, other then deny us the time we need.
 
Thanks for the info guys

I've narrowed my choices down to 3 safes. The AMSEC BF series, the Fort Knox Defender Series and the Liberty Lincoln series.

They are all rated at 90 min fire protection, the Liberty and AMSEC are 90 min at 1200*, while the Fort Knox is 90 min at 1600*.

Which leads me to believe the Fort Knox is a better rated fire safe, or is that marketing bull shit?

My primary want in a safe is fire protection. I live in the country with the nearest volunteer fire dept 10 miles. Plus, between my wife and 2 neighbors, there is usually eyes in our area or someone in the house 24/7. And the kind of thefts that I've heard about anywhere near me are from teenagers.

The safe will be hidden too, it will be located in a place where you need to be looking for it.

So for a fire rating option, out if those three, who's safe is better?
 
Of those three the AMSEC is handsdown the best safe. No questions about it! Looking at the Fort Know website they clearly state the use of drywall as the main fireprooing material. The poured insulation of the AMSEC is a much better in that regard as well as break-in protection. Same for the Liberty, drywall fire protection. It's your money so do what you will but I promise that you'll be happy, and better protected, with the AMSEC. As a side note, when purchasing my safe I found http://www.safeandvaultstore.com and they gave me a better price delivered, than the local guy would without delivery. Good luck
 
Can someone post a few pics of their AMSEC (7250 even better). I would in particular like to see the lighting and what it looks like. Also the AR rack and shelving etc. Thanks ahead of time.
 
How many Ft Knox owners went with some of the available upgrades?

In looking through their literature it looks to me like the Defender is a fantastic option. Add to this things like internal steel liners, additional fire lining, corner bolts, body and door upgrades. Pretty much anything that is available on the top of the line Ft Knox safes can be added to the Defender as an option.

Having the ability to basically custom build a safe with options that are most important to me has really got me thinking Ft Knox is the way to go.
 
I went with a big ass Heritage delivered from them direct and I am very happy. My main goal was keeping two kids safe and what I got is probably overkill as their safe cracking skills suck. Heritage was very customer friendly and they did everything they said they would at the times the said they would. This was helpful in regards to arranging support to get the safe in my house.

Heritage was very easy to deal with. What really made the whole thing easy was hiring a real rigger to bring the thing from the end of my driveway into the house. For $300 the riggers made quick work of it (3 guys with all the necessary pallet jacks, protection plate, knowledge).

I fretted over buying my safe and researched until I was sick to death. You have to find the crossing of Price, Protection and Capacity on a X/Y graph. That is YOUR perfect safe to buy. Note that Protection reduces capacity and increases price. Each variable has an effect on the other two.

Research will tell you that only the FuhrerBunker 2000 is suitable to store a Ruger 1022 but your wallet will tell you no friggen way. Unlike in my personal relationships, size concerning a safe really matters. Mine is a 72 x 42 x 28 or something like that, rated for some astounding number of guns, and to tell you the truth at 6 rifles and 1 shotgun my long gun capacity is just about to the point I dont want to put anymore in there as my nice wood will be getting safe rash. I also like to store my guns muzzle down alternated so I am my own worst enemy when it comes to maximizing space in the safe. On the bright side I could store handguns to the max.

Hope my 2 cents helps.
 
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Also, having a home alarm will help and reduce the amount of time someone may stay in the home to work on a safe. I have a pinnacle 65 and a few others but I mostly stay at home, live in a relatively new development that includes mostly retired folks, and have a good home security system so I don't worry too much about some guy with a plasma cutter camping out in one of garages for 20-30 minutes while they try to break in. Bolt them down and that should cover 99 percent of the 20 something's and younger that are just looking to grab some quick items and get out. Many people sell safes on the premise that every thief carries a full compliment of cutting ang grindings tools with them at all times and after a full career in LE I can say that this is just not the case. Fire damage is probably the greatest threat. If just your house catches fire they may save it in time to keep the contents of the safe intact, if the whole neighborhood is up in flames pack up the contents of the safe in your vehicle and bug out.