Anchient 50 cal whisper

[NONAGONAGIN]

HAPPINESS IS THE BROWN TRUCK DELIVERING A MCGOWEN 50 CAL BARREL BLANK!!!!!!

Been wanting to do a 50 whisper of some kind for the past several years, so I got down to it and ordered a barrel and started checking out all the offerings. I wanted something cheep, quick to do, simple with components easy to find, cheep, available and...did I say CHEEP!

Didn't take me long to find just the thing...the 50-70 Gov...the ORIGINAL WHISPER if they had suppressors back in them days. 1.75" long, 75-77 gr H2O, plenty of cheep cases AND available...lots of cast lead bullets and the fact I have a 50-90 Quigley doesn't hurt either...I can use the same dies with a few alterations to the sizer/expander length and seater punch.

I also got a wild hair to do a pointy cast lead bullet in the 750-800 gr weight to get the highest BC possible...I designed a bullet and have Accurate Molds making the alum mold...just add a 0.750" brass tip contoured to match the bullet nose curve and I'm there...BC ~.85.

The barrel blank came today and I about caused myself great harm lifting the beast. 32" long, 1.65" OD, chrome moly and I'm afraid to weigh it.

While this was going on early this afternoon, I got to thinking...I have a Savage 110 FCP 338 Lapua and my own 50 cal Rigby wildcat build on a Ruger M77. I wanted to put a 50 cal barrel on the Lapua chambered for my 50 wildcat so I could seat the bullets out to 3.68" to work through the magazine and single load the 4.5" ones...I want to do a 50 Whisper...and I want to do another large cal wildcat/factory that will work in the slightly reworked Ruger.

So here's what's going to happen....The Savage gets the new 50 cal barrel chambered in my 50 Rigby...the barrel comes off the Ruger, gets 2" cut off the chamber end and rechambered to 50-70 which will then end up 23" long with an integral 3" muzzle brake already done and go in the NEF stub barrel setup as originally planned and later a suppressor...and the Ruger will get something else.

I'm tired of paying 200-300 for CH4D dies and waiting a year like I did for the 50 Rigby and then having to form cases etc. Whatever I do to the Ruger will be an already available cartridge if I can find a cal I like and don't already have.

Anyway I'M HAPPY AS A FROG ON A LILLY PAD...EXCEPT I can't get to my lathe because my garage isn't heated, the mold will take 5 weeks and I have to make a contour turner to turn the bullet tips...AND ITS SNOWING RIGHT NOW. lol

 

[redbullitt]

I have thought about going the same route with a 45-70 or that 50-70 you have there. It needs to go on my encore frame asap lol.

You have an excellent plan there. Keep us posted, especially on that bullet. I may have to look into it whenever mine gets going.

Planning on running a suppressor?

 

[ghostwriter247]

Tag

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Then 45-70 would work and also the encore frame, you just have to do your research. You need a small case to begin with so it tis easier to keep the velos below sonic levels. My 50-90 will do it, but with only a couple of powders like AA5744 and IMR Trailboss.

Even with the 50-70 I have to watch to keep the velo down and the load density up. I can get up into the 1400 fs plus range with the 50-70 case without a problem according to Quickload.

I looked at doing a "50-80", a 50-90 trimmed to 2.00" which has the same case capacity as SSK's 510 Whisper but ran into the powder problem again...very few to choose from...even better would be a 1.5" iteration which I will test out. 75 gr is in the '06 case size range so this toy isn't any slouch. Something in the 55-65 gr range might be even better which puts you into the faster burning powders so the pressure is a bit higher...no bullets getting stuck in the barrel due to low pressure.

This is going on a NEF Handi-rifle and with the big rim I want to keep the pressures up in the 28KPSI to 35KPSI but no higher.

I have a 45-70 I took out to 45-120...went the wrong way for doing a whisper...it makes your eyes water whenever you touch off a 700 plus grain chunk of lead in the higher velos even with the stock and forearm loaded with lead AND a muzzle brake.

There are a lot of good cartridges out there for doing a "Whisper" project, but it seems like everyone needs to do something cool or exotic nowadays.

This originated as a suppressor project and I will get into that later on...I'm researching suppressors now deciding which version would best serve, but I'm not sure I want the Batty's sticking their noses up my backside for the license.

I'm OLD, live in the boonies, on dial up and not sure what the HE** the "cloud" is, so I have NO freeking clue what you mean by "TAG", there Ghostwriter. In the old days that 's what you said when you were "IT" playing tag on the school yard. You got caught and "tagged" and you were "IT". Is this the same thing????

 

[redbullitt]

Definitely a good idea to maybe start with at 50-70 or 45-70 and cut the case down. Just would have to get some custom dies done, but definitely worth it I think.

Those rimmed cartridges are the way to go in break actions, no question there.

I shoot a lot of 45-70 out of my Ruger Guide gun, and I have always wanted to get a suppressor on it. Short barreled 45-70 Encore with a suppressor would be just about the best deer rifle I can imagine around here haha.

Bowers makes a suppressor that would work for either cartridge I believe, but other than that it is slim pickings as far as I have seen. There are quite a few people running custom built cans for the big bore calibers though, so that might be an option as well. I imagine it is pricey for sure going that route.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

I'm OLD, live in the boonies, on dial up and not sure what the HE** the "cloud" is, so I have NO freeking clue what you mean by "TAG", there Ghostwriter. In the old days that 's what you said when you were "IT" playing tag on the school yard. You got caught and "tagged" and you were "IT". Is this the same thing????

It's been a long time since I heard a dial tone come out of my pooter!!!

Saying tag just means "tagging this for later". People can find threads easier if they post in the thread.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Thanks, Powerstroke...that's a neat idea, I will start using it...even an old dog can learn a new trick now and then. I did something similar but just used quote marks.

Yeah, living in the dark ages can be a total PITA except for the clean air, no noise, lots of critters running around, my own range and living in an area people pay big bucks to camp in. Hahahaha

Here's another bit....the larger cal straight walled cases have CAPACITY TO SPARE, and can be used in many ways....like the WSM and RUM cases, bouque wildcats can and have been produced. The 50-70 et al can be used in a bolt gun just by turning the rim down and adding a extractor groove...takes longer to describe than to do...just grind a tool bit to the specific profile and turn away. I did it on 45-70 cases when I was doing some wildcatting on that case.

I wanted a 45-70 bolt gun, but that huge rim just caused all kinds of feeding problems. I decided to do a 458 American instead using an SMLE Lee Enfield Ishapore 2a 308. Very easy conversion, the 10 rnd 308 mage holds 6 458 Am down, feeds like greased catschat AND I can also shoot 45-70, 90 and 100 single load. No one believes me even though I did post pictures...doesn't matter to me, that. You can use the cheap 45-70 dies rather than going high dollar and long wait time.

The 50-** base dia falls in between the mags/WSM/RUM and the Rigby and other REALLY large cases...no different than turning the rim off 0r turning the belt off on a large Weatherby case.

FWIW a 50-70 x 1.5 has ~66-68 gr H2O...anything smaller doesn't leave much room for powder when the bullet is seated.

For those interested...#175, June 1995, Handloader mag, page 18, has an excellent article on the 50-70-750 Contender. You couldn't get me to shoot it. I have several Contenders and Encores, so I know what the construction is. Encore yes...Contender DEFINITELY NO.


Personally I like the Rigby and 404 Jeff cases...I fell in love with the Jeff case way back when P.O. Ackley published his first book back in '62. That case just jumped out at me. Kinda strange tho', I never used it for a wildcat or built a rifle for it...now we have the same thing under different names...WSM and RUM and how many other "new" cases.

Like the 50 Beowulf, what you can do to a case is only limited by your imagination and a niché to fill.

Now the "cans"...I have priced several for the larger bores and I think they are a total rip-off. Even considering the cost of CNC machines, 3-10 large is WAY MANY large too much. I can make one on my manual lathe(and will when the time comes). Even if it takes me a week that is 100% profit to a skilled operator with a better machine at one a week. With a CNC machine all you have to do is punch in the codes and feed it material. Dumb as I am, I can punch a keyboard and I've read 3 books on CNC programming and wrote a couple of simple programs just in case I want some bullets make at my local CNC machine shop. Those can sellers have snowed a lot of people, but if you don't have the skills/machines and do have the coin, then go for commercialism, I'm all for it. If I were younger I would be right in the middle of selling you whatever you desired(almost)

This will be an interesting project with a fun factor way out of proportion to the total cost. Hahahahah

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Extra deleted

 

[Randoman5]

Wouldn't cast lead bullets gunk up a suppressor really quickly?

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

I've read some blurbs/tests on that subject that indicate the lube WILL gum up the works and also the gas check could separate...I think more testing is due. Some of my 45-50 cal bullets have enough guck on them to grease up a pigs hair shirt.

I think it will depend on what type and how much lube is used. My bullet design has 4 "tumble" grooves...0.050" wide and about the same deep, a gas check and a bore riding section. Nor much lube is required fir a 20" barrel and <1100 fs. The gas check can be left off and a fiber wad substituted to keep the base of the bullet from getting singed, or no wad, it all depends on...??? I also just read a test where a bullet without lube grooves was used with just a smidgeon of Alox. It actually was the most accurate of the three different bullets used in the test.

It definitely requires testing under controlled conditions.

I have a long list of "wonder if's" to answer during this project. The suppressor is part, but won't come into play until near the end.

I need to find a forum concerned with 50 cal's and suppressors. I can get some answers there I'm guessing...or more questions.

 

[wakajawaka]

500 Whisper

Supressor is 20" long, 1 7/8" in diameter. 7" of barrel inside supressor.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

this dial-up sukz

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Thanks Wakajawaka...NICE rig...I saw that somewhere already I think...got any more photos of internals pieces and parts? You can reach out and touch them in more ways than one with that one. I'm collecting photos, drawings, etc as fast as I can. Lots of different designs, but that one that is the one I'm more interested in making.

 

[SUIScide]

I think gas checks and wads would be dangerous in a suppressor. I would ditch the gas check. Lube shouldn't be to big of an issue. Just heat the can and let it drip out! You may want to look into powder coating your bullets, looks like it should work well for your application. I'm messing with it some but having difficulty in finding free time!

 

[sgtsmmiii]

500 Whisper

Supressor is 20" long, 1 7/8" in diameter. 7" of barrel inside supressor.

Very cool ( and nice ).

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Yeah...that's one of those thought questions asked out loud...hoping to find some actual data...I've shot a lot of GC bullet through various muzzle brakes I've made, into my sand backstop. Only a few ever came partially off...those hit small rocks just right to catch an edge. I don't want to think what might happen inside a suppressor when a bullet came unhinged.

One question come to mind immediately is HOW do you attach the ring that threads to the barrel to the inside of the suppressor, 7" down a 17/8" hole??? Through a plug hole, then turn the diameter and polish?.

I've read of powder coating, painting with various enamel/epoxy/varnishes etc. I don't expect there will be any grease that doesn't get vaporized...Alox applied with the fingers in a very thin coat leaves no residue in my 30-34" barreled "Long Toms"...a 20 bbl will have to tell it's own story.

I very much doubt I will shoot any cast lead GC bullets through the suppressor, no matter HOW much I want the data. I will nip off the GC section and not worry about any singed lead butts.

My barrel came in Thursday, 32.25" long, 1.65" od is now 20" long and 1.45" od. My tailstock is out by a bunch and I've been fiddling with it every pass trying to get both ends close to the same dia. Today I will adjust it by 0.007" again and see what happens. At least now I can stuff it all the way through the headstock hole. I ordered the reamer today so by Tuesday I should have the tailstock situated so I can thread and chamber. Sometime these next few days I will load up a few just to go bang. I will also make a MB out of a piece of the cut off barrel ala Vias design with the holes in a spiral. It's not needed with such a low velo/low gas volume case but it will look Baaadddd. Hahashhahaha

 

[wakajawaka]

Somewhere, I've got some photos of the suppressors internals. It may take me a little time to find them.
It's a very very old school design. I'd think you could do much better today.

End of the barrel.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Thanks Wakajawaka...If it works it doesn't matter if it's old school or new. It must have a BUNCH of baffles or a long expansion chamber being 20" long.

What do you use for bullets and powder?

 

[wakajawaka]

There are still a few spacers remaining in the can. The expansion chamber spacer, the baffle that locates the end of the barrel just past the built in break, and the blast chamber spacer.

 

[wakajawaka]

Thanks Wakajawaka...If it works it doesn't matter if it's old school or new. It must have a BUNCH of baffles or a long expansion chamber being 20" long.

What do you use for bullets and powder?

Groove diameter is .510 so 50BMG bullets work well if you have them. I've shot some.
Mostly, I'm shooting plain based cast bullets.
I've used IMR 4198, IMR 3031, Alliant Reloader 7 (my favorite).

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

EXCELLENT...THANKS A TON. Looks like a few cones at the muzzle end are flame cut, are those made out of aluminum? Are that many (7) of the thinner spacers needed, or would less of the thicker spacer's work just as well? What material are the cones/spacers made of?

I've looked at a few pictures of the "innards" of some and some of the cone shapes are a bit complicated for a manual lathe. Lots of different designs for the cones also. Some of yours look like they could be stamped/squeezed out of SS, while others are easily turned .

I'm progressing day by day. Have the barrel turned to 1.20" OD,(plenty of meat for weight and can threads) headspaced and fitted to the NEF receiver/stub and the muzzle turned/threaded 3/4"-20tpi x 0.750" and I thought I might do a brass muzzle brake...might look Baaaddd AND kooolll if I coat the barrel blue-black to match the receiver. I ordered a reamer from 4D reamers which should be here Tuesday.

I like your powder selection...Quickload also has AA5744, AA2015, Trailboss, RL-10 and a couple of others that will work for subsonic and up to 1500fs depending on the bullet weight. I will be ordering some CNC 650 gr BMG copies from Lehigh and some military BMG bullets if I can find them.

Have you ever used solid Zinc washers screwed onto the base of cast bullets? I remember some tests way back in the olden days using zinc washers, but I can't find any online.

Are you having any particular problems with leading or excess grease buildup? I'm gonna owe you more than a 6 pack after all these answers???

Thanks again

 

[wakajawaka]

Every part of the .50cal supressor is a non magnetic stainless.
I can't speak to the baffles efficiency or if you could do with fewer.
There is no flame cutting on the muzzle end baffles. Maybe just appearance as there is carbon.


The only other even remotely similar supressor I have is an integrally suppressed .44/77.
It has a very large expansion chamber and many of the stamped, cone shaped washer / spacer style baffles.


Never used zinc washers.

Lead can be an issue. Frequent cleaning helps.
In the .44mag, I've moved to plated bullets almost exclusively.
May try powder coating the .50s. Haven't tried that yet.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Thanks again. Still have lots of questions as time goes by. Man...that's a LONG can on that 44.

How do you keep the can from sagging? Does one of the pieces register on the end of the barrel for support?

Here's a pic...Have to drill 72 holes in the MB which will take time. Got it set up today ready to drill, but will take time to surf for more suppressor info...supposed to start raining tomorrow and for the next week so I will drill when I can't get to the boonies.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Reamer came today, chamber reamed and headspaced and it wentBANG Recoil was minimal with a 100% charge of Trailboss, 525 gr GC bullet at ~~1000fs and ~~25-27KPSI.

Chamber is generous to say the least even though it is SAAMI minimum spec. Brass life might be an issue, but only time will tell. Now for the brass MB.

Found a couple suppliers for 647 gr military BMG bullets, probably Winchester. Actually cheaper than the brass tipped bullets I will make, seeing the brass tip alone will cost 25-30 cents to make.

Several "pick-up" bits to do...make a scope mount, cut a extractor slot, make and install forend dovetail mounts, make/modify a forend, start collecting SS material and get tax stamp paperwork started...and last but not least try some other powders while waiting for the weather to clear enough to set up my chrono's.

Hahahahahahahah...LOL....I LOVE IT.

 

[wakajawaka]

Thanks again. Still have lots of questions as time goes by. Man...that's a LONG can on that 44.

How do you keep the can from sagging? Does one of the pieces register on the end of the barrel for support?

It's a combination barrel shroud, expansion chamber, supressor can.

First shot is supersonic, the rest are subs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3rsK2tv2KA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Far out...Had to go to town to run the vid...no way on dial-up. Recoil doesn't seem to change much, but the sound reduction is very apparent. Bet that's one heck of a close-in pig gun. Had a friend that had one of those Ruger semi M44's way back in the early 60's. Don't know which was faster his semi or my A-5, but my slugs did more damage.


Here's the MB...all those 1/8" holes have almost 4 times the area of a 50 cal bore so it will work for some very large case volumes. I though about going to 0.156" and I still might after I see how well the brake vents the supersonic 650-800 gr loads.



I dropped a 50 BMG bullet down the chamber and measured it...I will have to throat 0.300" to seat in the crimp groove for an OAL of 3.45"...probably do 0.500" just in case.

Weighed everything today...barrel/MB/receiver 7.8#...forend and stock off my 12 GA from He** adds another 4.5#, and scope/rings/base another 2#...this boogie will be a bit in the hefty side of ~14#. It will definitely soak up any recoil.

The stainless dealers are sure proud of their products...especially the 2.5" OD tubing...60 bucks a FOOT...I might just take a look at AL for the outside and use the smaller OD ss inside for the expansion chamber.

It's rolling along nicely but slowly.

 

[wakajawaka]

If you haven't already, spend some time here → SilencerTalk ? View forum - Silencersmithing Forum

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Thanks, Wakajawaka...I found that forum a couple days ago but haven't really perused it thoroughly yet. Tried to register but didn't quite understand what they wanted for an answer to the anti-bot question...AAC or CAA and neither worked.

Much more to a can than meets the eye initially.


Found some ss Belleville washers that might work rather than trying to form/turn complete shapes. Only slight mods required. Maybe Silencer Talk can shed some light on the pieces and parts.

Seems like total paranoia or Big Brother hanging around ANY form of noise suppressor or part thereof. What a world we live in now.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Here it is ready to start load development. I won't color the barrel until I get the suppressor in the works later toward the end of winter. My bullet mold is being made also, so things are almost there. It weighs 12.73 lbs but balances too far back so I will put the steel rod back in the stock which will put the weight right at 14#. and the balance point right at the hinge point.

 

[wakajawaka]

Here it is ready to start load development. I won't color the barrel until I get the suppressor in the works later toward the end of winter. My bullet mold is being made also, so things are almost there. It weighs 12.73 lbs but balances too far back so I will put the steel rod back in the stock which will put the weight right at 14#. and the balance point right at the hinge point.

Looking good.

What mold are you looking at?

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Accurate Molds #51-690B...you can see the bullet online, it's my design. It has a bore riding section in front of the grease grooves, a 0.400 meplate that I will drill a 0.150" hole in then insert a 3/8" OD brass pointy nose piece into that hole that has a similar size stud turned onto it or a #10 set screw inserted...I will try several designs before settling on the easiest to make one The brass point will weigh ~ 70 gr and be ~0.750" - 0.800" long. Bullet weight with point will be ~750-775 gr I'm guessing. Basically I'm yampin' a Corbin bullet point, using brass instead of steel and making it 0.375" OD instead of 0.260". but don't tell them.

I still have to make an outside radius cutting tool for my lathe cross feed so I can finish turn the bullet nose profile. My drawings indicate a 5" curve from the end of the bore riding section to the end of the bullet and I will continue that curvature to the end of the brass point. I'll be setting up my collet holder and turn out some tips and contour some bullets just for kicks until the mold arrives.

I still might recut the chamber to 50-90 or have a reamer made with a longer throat and a case length of 2.20"- 2.25". I have a nice 50 cal Beartooth 475 gr bullet with the crimp groove in the right place to give a 2.68" OAL. Of course it is easy to modify lead bullets or have a mold made to a specific design.

I have a wild hair to do a 50 cal barrel for my Marlin levergun using a shortened Lapua/Rigby case...I've been mulling that project over for a couple years now. I have modified the original 30-30 Matlin 336 into a switch barrel and I have a 356 W, 444M and 458 American barrel for it...I think a 50 cal might be a nice addition. I don't like rimmed cartridges in anything but a single shot so I will either use a 50-90 case and modify the rim to rimless or go the larger Rigby 0.586" base which should work in the 45-70 tube and also through the action. Lots of ways to go with cases and still keep the OAL to 2.68", the same as the 458 American OAL, which works through the modified action like greased owl pucky. Still doing the research on that project.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

The Great SHUSH has spoken...a tiny whisper...then a GREAT SHOUT. Tried AA5477 today just to get a sense of the pressure...26 gr-~1100 fs to---as far as I felt comfortable with.

I won't post the top powder numbers as they are WAY THE HE** up there, close to 1800 fs with a Cast Performance 525 gr WFNGC that actually weighed 532 gr. I don't want a beginner doing the dirty and getting caught. Once posted online, it's there forever. Anyone with Quick Load can work out the details if they're so inclined...OAL ~2.145", case volume ~82 gr H2O, 22" bbl.

AA5477 is a bit dirty, lots of unburned powder granules left in the barrel, and NO leading. It measures very uniformly and the pressure/velo increased uniformly...no strange jumps...~2500 psi and ~40 fs per grain increase. That is a BIG plus when fiddling powders. The only other powders that seemed to work were WW 296 and RL-10 and I had to futz around with the OAL to get them to work.

Once I get the throat taken out a bit, then there will be room to work with the OAL and other powders will begin to fit/work.

NONE of the loads showed ANY pressure indicators except a progressively larger base diameter...0.001 to 0.005" over 9 rounds in one gr increments.

Cases extracted with just a gentle touch of the screwdriver I ground to fit the extractor grooved I cut in the right side of the rim recess. Primers showed no flattening, no case sticking or action lockup.

NEF's usually get cranky when the pressure gets higher which is why I like to use the action...no surprises...the action locks up well below dangerous pressures or pops open, or the ejector just wont eject a stuck case.

My 45-120 gets positively meaner than a junk yard dog and will spit a case out right between my eyes if I mess up...AND I've adjusted and massaged the NEF lockup points to get maximum contact...the action is still no match for a bolt gun or falling action. The same goes for just about all the other switch barrel calibers I've done using the NEF receiver.

I'm a very happy camper. This turned out much better than I anticipated...I only with I had left the barrel the full 32" now.

I'm already putting the cogitation on a 50-140 or a Hornady 500 3" with a 30-34" bbl. I have a 12 ga USH that will handle a 1.20" OD barrel. Now all I need is a 12 ga USH donor barrel and it's practically done.

I have absolutely no need, even in a beautiful dream, for a shooter like this, but it's gonna happen before I'm too old to pick it up.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

You can sure loose your place in line fast on this forum!!!

Here's a few morpho-dytes using odds and end left over bullets. Got my collet holder set up and staying within about 0.0005" TIR which is better than the cast bullets themselves. Snowed a couple inches last night and made everything cold again.

I ran the bullet on the left through my Lee 0.510 sizer, then turned a 0.380" section to 0.499" to act as a bore rider when the brass section get added. The next to the right has a tip added but I also turned the nose section to match the brass profile and lost some lead weigh.

I will do a 1/2" piece of brass similar to the second from the right but cutting the round nose completely off of the lead section at 0.980" oal and add a brass tip with a bore riding section ~0.200" long that will bring the bullet to ~2.15" total length and ~775-800 gr....won't know until it done.

The 50-70 case is actually too long and has too much case volume to be really effective for a subsonic...I keep running into problems with which powder to use. Both AA5477 and Trailboss get messy trying to stay at 1050-1100 fs. I will shorten a couple cases to 1.5" and see how they work. The case volume is reduced to ~62 gr...the 657 gr round nosed bullet seated to 2.3" oal gives ~1110 fs, 21.5 gr AA5477 at ~25KPSI...not bad at all, have to try a few.

Anyway, it's still interesting.

 

[NONAGONAGIN]

Got a radius tool built and semi-working???? At least the nose profile looks like a bullet but not quite what I'm looking for. Radius is ~2" and I want something around 5" which will make it look more like a ULD profile. 820 gr, 2.18" long, brass nose weighs 310 gr.

A total PITA to make singly and not much better in multiples.

My milling collet holder isn't working quite the way I'd hoped...it is unbalanced so to get faster than ~200 rpm I will need to stick on some weight to balance it or buy a D1-4 quick change collet chuck in the $350 area. I can buy about 800 milsurp BMG bullets for that price or ~300 of the fancy factory/CNC bullets and just use 3/8 "dum-bass" pointy party hat looking 3/4" long points.

Keeps me outtadabazzz'n'sobr.