Annealing and Neck Cleaning

[mbeavers1]

In another recent thread there was a discussion over carbon being baked on the ID if the case neck during annealing. This was new info for me but I have always noticed that my expander buttons got black gunk on them and came out of the case kind of rough.

Today while sizing some brass I paid attention specifically to this. I am finding that the ID of the brass gets axial scratching while sizing. See below

I confirmed that this was caused by the sizing process. Is this normal or how do I fix it?

Prior to sizing, the case was tumbled with SS media, dawn dish soap, and a bit of Frankford Arsenal Brass Polish for 2 hr, dried in a dehydrator, then annealed with an Amp in Aztec mode. The brass was lubed usimg a plastic tub and lanolin/alcohol. Nothing was done to the ID of the case.

 

[straightshooter1]

In another recent thread there was a discussion over carbon being baked on the ID if the case neck during annealing. This was new info for me but I have always noticed that my expander buttons got black gunk on them and came out of the case kind of rough.

Today while sizing some brass I paid attention specifically to this. I am finding that the ID of the brass gets axial scratching while sizing. See below
View attachment 7419244
I confirmed that this was caused by the sizing process. Is this normal or how do I fix it?

Prior to sizing, the case was tumbled with SS media, dawn dish soap, and a bit of Frankford Arsenal Brass Polish for 2 hr, dried in a dehydrator, then annealed with an Amp in Aztec mode. The brass was lubed usimg a plastic tub and lanolin/alcohol. Nothing was done to the ID of the case.

It's not so much the carbon being baked on, but just as much its about any residue (like any film left on the surface face from cleaning or polishing solutions or the minerals just from plain water or particularly hard water) will get burnt on leaving a surface that produces a lot of friction. This is why annealing is best done before cleaning. Note too that wet tumbling with SS pins/media will clean the carbon off of the neck surface making the surface such that it will not be as smooth running as when the carbon is left on, but not as bad as when annealed.

In order to keep from getting the inside of the case necks galled by the expander button, you need to make sure you lube inside the neck. That should take care of the galling, and. . . it should help keep your necks concentric.

I don't use n expander button in my sizing die. When the die sizes the neck down, I then used an expander mandrel to expand the neck to the diameter that gives me the neck tension I'm after. And I'm leaving the carbon coating in the neck by cleaning my brass with a vibrator tumbler with medium grain rise, which cleaning the outside of the brass very nicely, AND. . . the rice adds a little bit of coating that adds a little additional lubrication.

 

[mbeavers1]

So sounds like 2 options then:

1) take expander button out of die then tumble w SS again to remove residue, then mandrel, or
2) tumble w SS after annealing and use the button/mandrel.
I'll try it. Thanks!

 

[whatsupdoc]

A little confused here, you say " Nothing was done to the ID of the case " and " my expander buttons got black gunk on them"
Are you expanding the neck?

Also the edges are peened over from the steel pins you need to chamfer the neck.

 

[straightshooter1]

So sounds like 2 options then:

1) take expander button out of die then tumble w SS again to remove residue, then mandrel, or
2) tumble w SS after annealing and use the button/mandrel.
I'll try it. Thanks!

Any time you remove the carbon coating that's left inside after firing, it's a good idea to lube the inside of the neck. Though if your expander mandrel is made of carbide instead of the usual steel, it's probably not necessary.

 

[mbeavers1]

A little confused here, you say " Nothing was done to the ID of the case " and " my expander buttons got black gunk on them"
Are you expanding the neck?

Also the edges are peened over from the steel pins you need to chamfer the neck.

Sorry for the confusion.

I mean I am not lubing or brushing the neck ID after annealing. I lube the case with lanolin and size with the expander button in. Then I would wipe off excess lube and chamfer.

 

[mbeavers1]

Any time you remove the carbon coating that's left inside after firing, it's a good idea to lube the inside of the neck. Though if your expander mandrel is made of carbide instead of the usual steel, it's probably not necessary.

Here is my current workflow:

1. Shoot 6CM and pick up brass
2. Decap
3. Tumble w SS, dish soap, and polish - I also have a vib tumbler that could be used if better.
4. Anneal
5. Lube cases with Lanolin/alcohol spray (no lube inside necks besides overspray)
6. FL size - Up to this point, I have had good luck with the expander buttons on the dies but do have all mandrels (0.2435, 0.243, 0.242, 0.241)
7. Wipe lube off all cases
8. OD/ID chamfer
9. Prime brass
10. Lube case necks with Imperial dry lube using application media
11. Charge
12. Seat bullets
13. Wipe excess neck lube off

I started using the dry lube for seating bullets because they seemed to seat rough. I suppose this is because of the same issues I am seeing with sizing. What would y'all recommend changing? I have almost all gadgets to do about anything.

 

[straightshooter1]

Here is my current workflow:

1. Shoot 6CM and pick up brass
2. Decap
3. Tumble w SS, dish soap, and polish - I also have a vib tumbler that could be used if better.
4. Anneal
5. Lube cases with Lanolin/alcohol spray (no lube inside necks besides overspray)
6. FL size - Up to this point, I have had good luck with the expander buttons on the dies but do have all mandrels (0.2435, 0.243, 0.242, 0.241)
7. Wipe lube off all cases
8. OD/ID chamfer
9. Prime brass
10. Lube case necks with Imperial dry lube using application media
11. Charge
12. Seat bullets
13. Wipe excess neck lube off

I started using the dry lube for seating bullets because they seemed to seat rough. I suppose this is because of the same issues I am seeing with sizing. What would y'all recommend changing? I have almost all gadgets to do about anything.

Here is my my recommend:

1. Shoot 6CM and pick up brass
2. Decap
3. Anneal
4. Dry tumble (using medium grain rice there's no media power floating around and helps lubricate)
5. Clean primer pockets if the dry tumble didn't get them clean enough
6. Lube cases with Lanolin/alcohol spray (no lube inside necks besides overspray)
7. FL size - Up to this point, I have had good luck with the expander buttons on the dies but do have all mandrels (0.2435, 0.243, 0.242, 0.241)
8. Wipe lube off all cases or a quick dry tumble to get lube off
9. Trim cases to length
10. OD/ID chamfer (steps 9 & 10 can be done all in one step using a 3 way trimmer. . . saves a lot of time)
11. Prime brass
12. Charge
13. Seat bullets

No functional need to wet tumble, unless one is picking up or buying really dirty range brass to reload. Then that's only necessary the one time.

 

[mbeavers1]

Awesome! Well that knocks out a few steps by changing tumbler. Here is what I'm thinking to fix the current batch.

1. Took out button
2. Sized all brass
3. Tumble to remove lube
4. Neck lube
5. Mandrel for neck tension
6. Chamfer
7. Charge
8. Seat

 

[hollywood1981]

Maybe the expander ball needs to be polished and sanded to me. Also if there is carbon in the neck before annealing it will harden and when you run it thru your die this could happen. I always use a copper brush I had left over out of my cleaning kit, and I use it on the neck of the casing before I tumble my brass. Also if using a mandrel, always use lube. I know they make them with coating now that say you need no lube, but you really need it regardless. I also FL size without the expander in place with my Redding dies with only with the neck bushings. Then run it thru a mandrel to get proper neck tension.

 

[straightshooter1]

Awesome! Well that knocks out a few steps by changing tumbler. Here is what I'm thinking to fix the current batch.

1. Took out button
2. Sized all brass
3. Tumble to remove lube
4. Neck lube
5. Mandrel for neck tension
6. Chamfer
7. Charge
8. Seat

Sounds good.

Though, If the neck mouths are rolled too much due to the peening, there could be some interference with the mandrel. So, if that's the case, then I'd chamfer before using the mandrel.

 

[mbeavers1]

Sounds good.

Though, If the neck mouths are rolled too much due to the peening, there could be some interference with the mandrel. So, if that's the case, then I'd chamfer before using the mandrel.

If I chamfer first and the neck is not perfectly round, will that hurt anything?

 

[straightshooter1]

If I chamfer first and the neck is not perfectly round, will that hurt anything?

When you size the case (like without the expander ball) the OD will be (should be) perfectly round. Unless the necks are turned to an even thickness, the ID will not be perfectly round due to neckwall thickness variations. Those variation do effect the chamfering of the ID where you will get some irregularity in the chamfer. But, because the irregularity of the neck thickness goes all the way down the neck, the irregularity of the chamfer isn't really going to change anything (though it will be easy to see). Then when you run the mandrel through, the neck thickness irregularity will be pushed to the outside making the ID perfectly round, which will be the biggest influence on the concentricity you'll get on your seated bullet rather from a little bit of chamfer irregularity.

If the case mouth rim is peened to where it's rolled to a thickness greater than the neckwall thickness, that can be a much bigger problem. When I first started wet tumbling that was a problem I finally figured out how to avoid. It's a time factor in that the longer you tumble the more those case mouths are going to get peened as the cases bang against each other. So, I found I could reduce the time I needed to get them bright shinny, including clean primer pockets, by using VERY hot water (the hottest I can get out of my tap, at a little over 130°F). I cut my time down from 90 minutes to 30 and whenever I wet tumble now (it not very often any more) and I still get some peening, but not much.

 

[whatsupdoc]

My sugestion.

1. Shoot 6CM and pick up brass
2. Decap
3. Tumble w SS, dish soap. ( dont need polish) tumble first then anneal as tumbling will harden the brass.
4. Anneal
5. Lube cases with Lanolin/alcohol spray.
6. LUBE INSIDE THE NECKS (this is a must)
7. FL size / Expand
8. Wipe lube off all cases
9. OD/ID chamfer
10. Prime brass

 

[mbeavers1]

My sugestion.

1. Shoot 6CM and pick up brass
2. Decap
3. Tumble w SS, dish soap. ( dont need polish) tumble first then anneal as tumbling will harden the brass.
4. Anneal
5. Lube cases with Lanolin/alcohol spray.
6. LUBE INSIDE THE NECKS (this is a must)
7. FL size / Expand
8. Wipe lube off all cases
9. OD/ID chamfer
10. Prime brass

Dont take this wrong, but Im lazy.

The way I'd likely do this is to wait to mandrel until after its primed then lube neck w dry lube, mandrel, charge, then seat. That way I only have to lube 1x.

Would there be an issue with that?

 

[Dthomas3523]

I personally:

Anneal
Wet tumble (no pins, and for like 30min)
Lube
Size/deprime
Wet tumble (no pins, 15 min)
Mandrel
Trim/chamfer/debur
Prime/powder/seat

We clean so we don’t damage our dies and chamber. So we don’t need to have clean brass to anneal (unless full of sand or something)

Cleaning after annealing helps with the issues annealing brings. Pins only get the brass shiny and pretty. They don’t do anything functional.

 

[hollywood1981]

I personally:

Anneal
Wet tumble (no pins, and for like 30min)
Lube
Size/deprime
Wet tumble (no pins, 15 min)
Mandrel
Trim/chamfer/debur
Prime/powder/seat

We clean so we don’t damage our dies and chamber. So we don’t need to have clean brass to anneal (unless full of sand or something)

Cleaning after annealing helps with the issues annealing brings. Pins only get the brass shiny and pretty. They don’t do anything functional.

I do the same exact process, but try tumble with corn cob and walnut 50 50 mix. Oh and I do not anneal yet.

 

[mbeavers1]

I personally:

Anneal
Wet tumble (no pins, and for like 30min)
Lube
Size/deprime
Wet tumble (no pins, 15 min)
Mandrel
Trim/chamfer/debur
Prime/powder/seat

We clean so we don’t damage our dies and chamber. So we don’t need to have clean brass to anneal (unless full of sand or something)

Cleaning after annealing helps with the issues annealing brings. Pins only get the brass shiny and pretty. They don’t do anything functional.

I like this a lot. Does wet tumblimg w/o pins keep the carbon inside the neck intact to help w seating? It looks like you only dryblube to mandrel. Is that right?

Guessing you don't touch primer pockets unless really nasty?

 

[patriotnation]

I personally:

Anneal
Wet tumble (no pins, and for like 30min)
Lube
Size/deprime
Wet tumble (no pins, 15 min)
Mandrel
Trim/chamfer/debur
Prime/powder/seat

We clean so we don’t damage our dies and chamber. So we don’t need to have clean brass to anneal (unless full of sand or something)

Cleaning after annealing helps with the issues annealing brings. Pins only get the brass shiny and pretty. They don’t do anything functional.

What issues are brought up by annealing? On another note, I messed up my usual order on a batch just yesterday, I deprimed,wet tumbled cleaned, then I forgot to anneal with my AMP and I sprayed One Shot on cases. So I wiped cases down with alcohol and a towel but the inside still has some lube I am sure. Can I just anneal? or do I need to tumble them again? Thanks

 

[mbeavers1]

What issues are brought up by annealing? On another note, I messed up my usual order on a batch just yesterday, I deprimed,wet tumbled cleaned, then I forgot to anneal with my AMP and I sprayed One Shot on cases. So I wiped cases down with alcohol and a towel but the inside still has some lube I am sure. Can I just anneal? or do I need to tumble them again? Thanks

The amp causes a crust to form on the ID of the neck and I was getting some galling inside the necks by the expander button on my FL sizer (see original pics).

Are you using pins or just wet tumbling?

 

[straightshooter1]

What issues are brought up by annealing? On another note, I messed up my usual order on a batch just yesterday, I deprimed,wet tumbled cleaned, then I forgot to anneal with my AMP and I sprayed One Shot on cases. So I wiped cases down with alcohol and a towel but the inside still has some lube I am sure. Can I just anneal? or do I need to tumble them again? Thanks

You can just anneal without having to tumble again, but you really should use some lube on the inside of the neck when you resize or when you go to seat your bullets.

 

[straightshooter1]

Cleaning after annealing helps with the issues annealing brings. Pins only get the brass shiny and pretty. They don’t do anything functional.

Hmmm?? I'm not so sure about that. The pins will work on the inside surface of the neck and remove not only the burnt on residue from annealing, but also the carbon layer from firing. And, the pins will do a good job of getting into the primer pockets to clean. Without pins, those areas don't get touch, though the chemicals used to clean (like Lemon Shine) help with that cleaning, as does very hot water.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hmmm?? I'm not so sure about that. The pins will work on the inside surface of the neck and remove not only the burnt on residue from annealing, but also the carbon layer from firing. And, the pins will do a good job of getting into the primer pockets to clean. Without pins, those areas don't get touch, though the chemicals used to clean (like Lemon Shine) help with that cleaning, as does very hot water.

Primer pockets being clean is 1000% cosmetic. This has been tested to death.

The residue inside the neck cleans with or without pins. And you don’t need to clean the carbon off the necks.

 

[Dthomas3523]

As long as you’re using a good scale and being meticulous about your neck tension, you can easily keep your ES at 20 or less never sorting brass, touching primer pockets, getting necks spotless inside......etc etc.

For the standard 6mm, that’s about 4” @ 1000yd or just over .1 mil. If you’re shooting of a bipod and a rear bag, you’ll almost never be able to exploit getting any better than that. It takes front rests and positive compensation to exploit any ammo you make better than that. Not to mention that’s usually using higher magnification than us used in a practical rifle. And even then, most shooters at that level stopped cleaning primer pockets long ago.

Basically, much of the shit people do like cleaning primer pockets, is a waste of time vs any benefit it might have.

 

[mbeavers1]

As long as you’re using a good scale and being meticulous about your neck tension, you can easily keep your ES at 20 or less never sorting brass, touching primer pockets, getting necks spotless inside......etc etc.

For the standard 6mm, that’s about 4” @ 1000yd or just over .1 mil. If you’re shooting of a bipod and a rear bag, you’ll almost never be able to exploit getting any better than that. It takes front rests and positive compensation to exploit any ammo you make better than that. Not to mention that’s usually using higher magnification than us used in a practical rifle. And even then, most shooters at that level stopped cleaning primer pockets long ago.

Basically, much of the shit people do like cleaning primer pockets, is a waste of time vs any benefit it might have.

I dont clean primer pockets but that has likely been because I tumbled w pins. I am goimg to switch to try the rice or just wet tumbling, then follow your procedure. I paid for the best equipment and components to try to reduce reloading time. I want to find the procedure that provides great (doesnt have to be the best cuz its likely gonna be better than me!) Accuracy and minimizes time spent.

 

[patriotnation]

The amp causes a crust to form on the ID of the neck and I was getting some galling inside the necks by the expander button on my FL sizer (see original pics).

Are you using pins or just wet tumbling?

Thanks, I brush the necks before seating

I use the pins but may try without

 

[patriotnation]

You can just anneal without having to tumble again, but you really should use some lube on the inside of the neck when you resize or when you go to seat your bullets.

OK, I do dip the bullet in Imperial dry lube before seating hoping it helps the SD and provides a barrier to ward off bonding issues that can vary neck tension. That is another reason I started using One Shot instead of Imperial sizing wax lube stuff which was a pain to wipe each case down after and did not get into necks like the spray does. Thanks

 

[straightshooter1]

OK, I do dip the bullet in Imperial dry lube before seating hoping it helps the SD and provides a barrier to ward off bonding issues that can vary neck tension. That is another reason I started using One Shot instead of Imperial sizing wax lube stuff which was a pain to wipe each case down after and did not get into necks like the spray does. Thanks

Yeah, that dry lube is a good way to go.