Hunting & Fishing Annealing bullets?

[HOOFER]

Just read an article about a plethora of different 7mm projectiles. On game animals. And for the newer 180 hunting VLD and the 162 Amax, the author mentioned annealing the ogive of the bullet with a torch till discoloration in water much like brass to increase expansion at slower impact velocities that are associated with long range killing. Then also comments on the 162 amax annealed with a candle offer more expansion and uniform pity for deeper penetration. I know they don't NEED it and they kill just fine without. I just have never heard of that before and wonder if anybody has done this and seen any better expansion?

Here's the link, lots of good knowledge on the site about cartridges and bullet selection.


7mm Remington Magnum

 

[RTH1800]

Writers always need to have a new line of BS to sell...

 

[AKONA]

Annealing does work to prevent pin hole potential due to the lack of speed and/or mass/bone structure to accelerate expansion.
This is something very popular overseas (Europe, Australia, NZ...) when hunting mountain goats at long range.
Thousands of heads of game have been harvested using this method. 7rem mag is super popular but there are others.
Now, since the whole concept is to soften the tip of the jacket one needs to do this very carefully to avoid compromising
the integrity of the bullet and its accuracy potential.
The best solution for most might be to skip annealing and to stick to manufactures specs regarding impact speeds for optimal
terminal performance. If bonded and solid bullet is too hard for a given game weight/distance then look for a softer one
(ie: nosler SP vs. accubond) and to choose bullets that retain more speed and momentum. Plenty of good options for
anything one might think. Amaxes are great performers.
Whenever possible if one is concerned about impact speeds one should try to go for a quartering shot and see if one can
catch the fore bones to induce accelerated expansion. This might ruin some precious meat but it is better than loosing the
animal due to poor wounding. When this is not possible or in doubt better skip the shot and move closer for a cleaner kill.

 

[LWILLIAMS]

If I researched correctly 800 decrees to anneal copper and lead melts at 621. Does this effect things later down range? Guessing plastic melts even sooner.

 

[shoot4fun]

I have enough to worry about without worrying about annealing bullets. The countless kills I have seen documented on this site with Amax bullets say it is not a big deal.

 

[Graham]

It's not about the bullet.

 

[Engine 22]

With all the options for bullets, I can't see why anyone would waste the time and $ to anneal bullets.....???. Like others have said in this thread, normal A-maxes, VLDs, TTSXs, Accubonds, etc. take game just fine for me. K.I.S.S. principle for me I guess...

 

[LWILLIAMS]

I'm guessing it's just smoke someone's blowing. I've never had a bullet placed properly fail on me yet.

 

[HOOFER]

Yeah I'm not saying its required. I've had no problems with Amax, SMK, and VLD killing. Just thought it was interesting. Shot placement is of course king.

 

[AKONA]

Shot placement in the trajectory of vitals of course but overall terminal performance is dictated by very simple factors.
This is more of a consideration when bullets go well below the known threshold recommended for optimal function like expansion, fragmentation,
tumbling or whatever the projectile is designed to do.
-Terminal design. It can be tuned by annealing, swagging, tip modification, etc.. Specialty equipment like dies, meplat, custom tips, etc... might be necessary. (not for everyone)
-Speed on impact. It can also be tuned to a degree by choosing bullets that might extend the range.
-Media including density and size. Everyone knows, taking small dear or goat is very different than taking a large hog or a large bull or a bear.
Amax in 155gr and up (168gr and up even better) is a great performer at a wide range of impact speeds. No need to anneal.
We cannot say the same from the small calibers and depending on game weight obviously.

 

[AKONA]

If I researched correctly 800 decrees to anneal copper and lead melts at 621. Does this effect things later down range? Guessing plastic melts even sooner.

Thats the thing... one must get the metal hot but not melt anything.
BTW I have done it for curiosity and testing but don't really have the time too keep it up nor want to risk a mistake.
But some folks use this technique and successfully.

This is an old video form Nathan from ballistic studies. One of the many ways of doing this I guess...

[video=youtube;mG-HbKeDKm0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG-HbKeDKm0[/video]

 

[coldboremiracle]

I anneal all my bullets, it makes all the difference in the world. I use a different process than described above though. I use a friction method to heat the jackets, I find a long tight fitting sleeve to drive the bullets down. The friction, heat, and other forms of energy generated are tremendous. Sure its tedious, but Im dedicated to my sport man. But it works every time.

 

[HOOFER]

I anneal all my bullets, it makes all the difference in the world. I use a different process than described above though. I use a friction method to heat the jackets, I find a long tight fitting sleeve to drive the bullets down. The friction, heat, and other forms of energy generated are tremendous. Sure its tedious, but Im dedicated to my sport man. But it works every time.

Haha. Nice.

 

[DirtyDave]

I heard if you stick them up your butt for 30min your body heat and the toxins in your butt causes a chemical reaction that softens the jacket. Sort of like how a suppository dissolves. Tie them all together with a string so you dont lose them though.........
I've worked my way up to shotgun slugs......

 

[RTH1800]

Dave,
You sure are going to be busy with all those 6MM bullets I have headed your way!

I think heating bullets would cause micro or even macro changes in dimensions.

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

That ass-hat in the video doesn't know what annealing is. All he is doing is warming up his bullets. Those bullets almost certainly become hotter traveling down the barrel. The copper needs to start glowing dull red to be annealed. As someone else said, the lead and plastic would melt before annealing took place. Besides even if the bullet was annealed, the instant it was forced into the rifling it would become work hardened again.

Annealing projectiles is the answer to a question that was never asked.

 

[AKONA]

That ass hat in the video is Nathan foster founder of ballistics studies.
He has taken more game than all of us here combined. Give him a call and get in line for a hosted long range hunt.

I found this other method he posted too..

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

The founder of "ballistic studies" needs a basic course in metal working. There is no way on this earth that the heat of that candle, applied for a few seconds on that bullet is annealing the copper jacket.

 

[Ledzep]

The founder of "ballistic studies" needs a basic course in metal working. There is no way on this earth that the heat of that candle, applied for a few seconds on that bullet is annealing the copper jacket.

I agree. I know a bunch of old schmucks that have killed way more animals than I probably ever will. It doesn't mean they're not ignorant red necks (If you think I called Mr. Foster an ignorant red neck schmuck there, try again).

The candle method is oxidizing the surface, if anything. That torch method will probably anneal the ogive, but honestly I question the effective rigidity/strength difference between a standard and annealed ogive impacting flesh/bone @1500-2500fps that indicates more reliable expansion/fragmentation and necessitates all of the work. I also question the viability of trimming the meplat so much that you induce a .050 BC loss (in the case of the 140 VLD, bringing the 1800fps/1000fpe rule 50-75 yards closer at sea level). How much increased are the odds of expansion by doing such work?

 

[AKONA]

He must be doing something right. Lots of interesting theories out there however Nathan provides forensic evidence in his papers including detailed dissection on the taken game.
So what he is saying is proven on the field and he is giving countless well documented studies. Everyone should read his book. It is a good read and IMO with very valuable
information regarding applied terminal performance on all sort of game. Simple and transparent no BS studies on the actual game taken. I think any attempt to disproving the evidence
might involve badly wounding some animal, that would be wrong. If one has been doing LR hunting long enough, probably had some exposure to this situation and possibly could be the trigger to do more research on the subject. I just recalled there is a section where he provides information on the annealing process and results and that is why I posted the above.

 

[AKONA]

BTW.. this is his website.... Terminal Ballistics Research
Might want to shoot him a PM. He is a joy to talk to.

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

I've never met Nathan Foster, he may be the nicest guy in the world. Me calling him an ass-hat was out of line, I wouldn't have called him that in person and I shouldn't have done it on the internet, I apologize.

However the laws of physics stand.

I dug up a couple of my old manuals during lunch and CU doesn't begin to anneal until 750 degrees F. Lead melts at 600 something? Even stress relieving CU starts around 400 degrees @ 15mins. depending on the alloy.

 

[coldboremiracle]

However the laws of physics stand.

I dug up a couple of my old manuals during lunch and CU doesn't begin to anneal until 750 degrees F. Lead melts at 600 something? Even stress relieving CU starts around 400 degrees @ 15mins. depending on the alloy.

^this

 

[Spot-on]

After I finish annealing my ogives and annealing my necks, I hope to have time to anneal my crown for OCW.

 

[bigngreen]

I anneal several bullets, it can take a Berger 6.5 140 Hybrid from not expanding to opening very nice and long ranges, the 6.5 160 Matrix is a completely different animal after annealing the tip. I have a tool that just exposed the tip and I hit it with a torch, there is no lead in a good share of this type bullets till you get down into the nose of the bullet a ways so unless you just free ball it not hard to do, if you melt lead you'll know cause it pops out the tip. If done right you heat the very copper tip so fast the heat does not travel down to the lead. I also anneal the tips on my Berger 300 gr OTM's so they open better on thinner game at longer ranges, works well!!
Shot placement trumps all but all the better if your bullet opens and creates carnage!!

 

[coldboremiracle]

Do you have any pics of the trauma caused by these annealed bullets, I only ask because its seems very difficult to me to see a verifiable difference.

 

[bigngreen]

I have some picture of testing at 1027 yards on 2.5 gal water jugs prior to season but don't have any pics of game with those particular bullets. The 160 Matrix will shoot through 6 2.5 gal water jugs at 1027 yards all pin holes in the jugs, after annealing they start opening in the first jug destroy the second and end in the third, impact velocity is below 1900 fps if I recall with that rifle.
I've hit a couple coyotes with the 140 Hybrid with and without annealing and it's clear which one is annealed but again no pics, I'll see if I can dig up the pic for the 160 Matrix testing though.

 

[RTH1800]

I am highly doubtful he has taken more game than one of us at least. He may have, but I find it very unlikely.

 

[pawprint2]

There is something to be said for side by side calibrated ballistic gelatin testing. The "I'll show you a photo of the guts of the animal I shot with it" type "proof" is at best a joke. As we can no long shoot the same animal at the same range/angle/rifle/ velocity with the same bullet from same lot that was not annealed. After these "annealing" procedures are these bullets subjected to an actual 3rd party hardness testing lab? I'll bet not-it's more fun to go hunting. But when making these "scientific claims", one should be ready with some Scientific proof-not photos of their last hunt.
A man in AK had a fine Stud horse, the stud was known for fathering some very good horses, every time that his horse mounted a mare (after the owner was paid, of course) in his barn, he [the owner] would kick a red bucket that he kept in his barn. 99% of the time his stud fathered a fine colt-proof without a doubt that kicking a red bucked works.......just saying.

 

[coldboremiracle]

^this is kind if what I was getting at. I can shoot 10 different deer at the same angle, range, bullet, rifle, load, etc. And have 10 different holes and wound channels. And that does not mean there is anything wrong with any of it.