I saw a video where a single piece of Lapua brass was fired and reloaded over twenty times with no change in velocity or other adverse effects. No annealing was done during this experiment. When I used Hornady brass I would anneal every third firing with the torch and socket method and it seemed to work well for me until the primer pockets loosened up. Now that I have a stash of Lapua I'd like to know how those that own them as well handle annealing. My idea is to use a batch of 100 until they wear out then open a new box. Any ideas to maximize longevity? As of now I don't shoot in matches or competitively.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Annealing Lapua brass. How often?
- Thread starter Cerwinski
- Start date
We’re they just neck sizing?
If the load is mild I can neck size a lot before brass gets tight or I get other issues.
If the load is mild I can neck size a lot before brass gets tight or I get other issues.
I got 11 firings out of my 260 rem Lapua brass before I got split necks. Also by that time a lot of the primer pockets were very loose. (LRP)
I anneal after every firing for all my brass. Since I started reloading just a few years ago, I've been firing Federal brass (which as you may know is a softer brass than Lapua). The annealing helped get my ES's and SD's low, so in terms of just velocity, I wouldn't say it made any difference other than improving consistency. I've reloaded a batch 250 of the Federal brass 11 times before there were signs of case head separation about to happen. Primer pockets were just fine for those 250, though I did have 3 or 4 cases I had to discard because the primer pocket was too loose (according to my swage I use to measure them).
As for my Lapua brass, which I use for my hotter loads, I've got 7 firings on a box of 100 and they're doing just fine so far in getting low SD's into the single digits and low ES's. Based on test reports done by AMP and METLAB, one doesn't really need to anneal after EVERY firing, but doing so does keep the brass in the necks consistent hardness. Without annealing, the necks and shoulders become harder each reloading due to the effects of cold working the brass. I've heard several reports of getting as much as 20 firings out of Lapua cases when annealing is done on a regular basis (not always after every firing).
I've heard of someone, a professional shooter and reloader, who got 100 reloads out of their Lapua brass. But I think that is largely due to having custom chambers and dies the put little stress on the cases compared to what most of us do.
As for my Lapua brass, which I use for my hotter loads, I've got 7 firings on a box of 100 and they're doing just fine so far in getting low SD's into the single digits and low ES's. Based on test reports done by AMP and METLAB, one doesn't really need to anneal after EVERY firing, but doing so does keep the brass in the necks consistent hardness. Without annealing, the necks and shoulders become harder each reloading due to the effects of cold working the brass. I've heard several reports of getting as much as 20 firings out of Lapua cases when annealing is done on a regular basis (not always after every firing).
I've heard of someone, a professional shooter and reloader, who got 100 reloads out of their Lapua brass. But I think that is largely due to having custom chambers and dies the put little stress on the cases compared to what most of us do.
Do different dies help with the brass life? In the necks specifically. After 11 loads this is what they look like
Good to know. I am just starting with 260 Lapua brass. I have been using 6.5 C SRP Lapua brass and am now on 5 firings. I am looking at annealers and will anneal before using them anymore. I am hoping to get more info on what makes sense as an interval for annealing. I hate brass prep the way it is. If primer pockets loosen at 10 or 11, maybe I'll anneal every 3 firings?
I anneal my Lapua 6.5x47L and 338LM after every firing based on the idea that true consistency comes from doing everything the same every time.
That being said, I'm only dealing with 300pcs of x47L and 100pcs of 338LM and I use my Giraud for the x47L so the extra effort required is pretty low.
That being said, I'm only dealing with 300pcs of x47L and 100pcs of 338LM and I use my Giraud for the x47L so the extra effort required is pretty low.
I anneal every time, I'm in the school of do the same thing every time to be consistent.
Some top BR shooters say they find after annealing that their 3rd, 4th and 5th fired without
annealing resulted in better groups. Brass was hardening to cause more even neck tension.
Beyond that, was becoming harder to get consistent setback and neck tension. Don't think the case is closed on this one yet.
I've gotten over 15 firings on some Lapua brass with annealing. They were still going strong. (6 creed )
Just figure what works for you.
Some top BR shooters say they find after annealing that their 3rd, 4th and 5th fired without
annealing resulted in better groups. Brass was hardening to cause more even neck tension.
Beyond that, was becoming harder to get consistent setback and neck tension. Don't think the case is closed on this one yet.
I've gotten over 15 firings on some Lapua brass with annealing. They were still going strong. (6 creed )
Just figure what works for you.
I shoot for fun, but I still anneal every reload. I have and AMP with mate and it needs to make my brass life pay for itself 
I had an Annealeez and now have an AMP. I've played around with annealing every other firing, every third, and after every firing. I've come to the conclusion that for me annealing every firing produces the most consistent results. YMMV
It is very evident with the pin gauge if the spring back is too great or too little. Size a new piece of brass to your desired neck ID. Run the closest pin gauge that fits with a slight drag. Now go do the same to some pieces of brass that you believe have annealed. If that pin gauge isn’t going in at all or isn’t going in without significant pressure your annealing isn’t adequate. If the gauge drops through on its own you’ve gone too far. Tempilaq is very helpful but dwell time is just as critical. If you are stopping at the 750F transition you aren’t annealing. You have to be in the 1000F range and the dwell time will have a tight window. The neck/shoulder junction will likely be the sticking point as you start getting closer to a proper anneal (assuming mandrel use).
An arbor press with pressure gauge is ideal but very costly. Pin gauges are inexpensive and immediately indicate if you are in the ball park or not. It’s very evident when you are not.
An arbor press with pressure gauge is ideal but very costly. Pin gauges are inexpensive and immediately indicate if you are in the ball park or not. It’s very evident when you are not.
A new piece isn't going to size like a fired piece brass. That is one of the reasons many avoid doing load development with new brass.
I have sized brand new Lapua, and their necks are always still too tight when new. I get the idea behind what you are doing, but think in practice, it wouldn't be as accurate as you think.
I have sized brand new Lapua, and their necks are always still too tight when new. I get the idea behind what you are doing, but think in practice, it wouldn't be as accurate as you think.
It has nothing to do with load development. It’s about the behavior of the brass itself. In all of my research on annealing I’ve come to the conclusion there are two tracks. The gun world that keeps regurgitating the same old 750F Tempilaq and stop approach and actual data from metallurgy reports that says 750F is in no way adequate to anneal on a time scale of seconds.
You want your fired brass to size like a piece of new brass. That’s the point of annealing... to get the grain structure as close to original as possible. It has nothing to do with your load development process. Regardless of which you decide is your starting point I bet for those of you stopping at 750F will see progressively more difficulty in passing a pin each firing which is telling you your annealing isn’t adequate.
You want your fired brass to size like a piece of new brass. That’s the point of annealing... to get the grain structure as close to original as possible. It has nothing to do with your load development process. Regardless of which you decide is your starting point I bet for those of you stopping at 750F will see progressively more difficulty in passing a pin each firing which is telling you your annealing isn’t adequate.
Last edited:
Who said that??? LOL I see some people that don’t like to be challenged.
My flow... Brass fires... neck expands... resizing die shrinks neck... mandrel expands neck. All SS tumbled new or fired.
On the 50 I just processed yesterday a 0.222 mandrel passes a 0.221 pin with light drag. How is that zero spring back? Zero springback would pass a 0.222 minus pin. If the annealing comes up short that pin won’t pass or would require excessive pressure. I’ve run brass to the point of over annealing on purpose and as I stated before you will get little to no spring back.
Last edited:
I anneal after every firing. When I first started I annealed after every other firing but then started after every firing to keep my process consistent and did notice the affects on my SD/ES numbers
You’re no challenge.
Unless every single case is exactly the same, or you’re annealing to the point of zero spring back, your pin gauge trick isn’t going to work.
I can run samples of the same brass lot for 0.2 seconds less in the annealer and the 0.221 pin won’t pass after the 0.222 mandrel. I can add 0.1 seconds and the pin will pass in the neck and get hung on the shoulder/neck boundary. Increasing another 0.1 seconds will allow the pin to pass without getting hung at that boundary. Going another 0.5 seconds and the pin passes with no pressure applied. I’m dialing my annealing time in down to the tenth of a second for a given lot of brass and you with zero data are telling me it’s worthless? That’s funny.
So I guess the arbor press with pressure gauge approach is crap too right? How could you possibly trust the gauge when you can’t guarantee each piece of brass is exactly the same as the last? The pin gauge is far less precise approach but it absolutely tells you when you are in the ballpark of consistency between firings. If your brass neck ID is being shown to be inconsistent between fittings your annealing isn’t effective.
My annealing is effective, keeps the necks from splitting. I heat them up to 650 degrees F.
Beyond that annealing doesn’t do anything for accuracy or consistency.
650F will not anneal in the time frame we are talking. Stress relieve maybe but not annealing.
Whatever you call it, the neck gets softer. It doesn’t split. I can feel the difference when sizing the neck in my LCND and again when seating the bullet.
I don’t load up close to the lands. I load mag length ammo. I get single digit SD and 100 yard groups in the .2-.3” range.
Maybe if you’re chasing lands there is some benefit, but not with mag length ammo shot out of standard chambers.
I don’t load up close to the lands. I load mag length ammo. I get single digit SD and 100 yard groups in the .2-.3” range.
Maybe if you’re chasing lands there is some benefit, but not with mag length ammo shot out of standard chambers.
I agree. I too have done a lot of research avoiding anecdotal evidence.
The scientific testing I've read supports what you're saying. I use to use the 750°F Tempilaq approach because it seemed those with experience were in the know. But I never really had seen and good precise detailed study reports. Though I've worked with sheetmetal of various types for a long time, it wasn't until I got serious to find out what was really going on with annealing of my brass cases. To my surprise, I found I needed to them to a much higher temperature than that 750° to really get the effect a change in the grain structure. Without really expensive equipment, we reloaders don't really have the capability to measure the pliability/hardness of the brass except try and measure spring back by a method like outlined with pin gauges. But, one can easily tell when the brass necks are over annealed when there's just no spring back when running an expanding mandrel through it more than one.
But. . . though 750°F doesn't put a good annealing job on the brass, I do think it helps a little, just not enough.
?
So what you’re saying is that 750 doesn’t make the brass soft enough.
What is soft enough? Is there an ideal hardness level where brass lets go of the bullet just right? How did you establish what that is?
What is soft enough? Is there an ideal hardness level where brass lets go of the bullet just right? How did you establish what that is?
AMP (Annealing Made Perfect) has info on their website you might what to read and might help answer your question(s): See here
918 knows that, he’s asking leading questions.
What he is trying to get it is that though tsloper may be correct in 1k tempilaq being required for zero spring back brass, how does it actually perform.
How does zero spring back perform compared to brass worked with a tool sized to compensate for the spring back?
Because people have found that 750 works really well where as people have found that dead brass with no spring back doesn’t do so hot.
There is an ideal range but without a metallurgy lab to directly measure the hardness of the brass and/or measure the grain size under a microscope the best you can do is measure the resultant springback after sizing with the pins. Class Z Minus pins (ie. NoGo) are spec’d to +0 to 0.0001” under. I measured mine and they were exactly 0.0001” under as spec’d. Class ZZ are +0 to 0.0002” under.
I understand this may not be intuitive if you haven’t done it but once you truly dial in the anneal you will see exactly why the pins are a viable approach to confirm your anneal. The only other tidbit I can add is that I SS tumble new and fired brass (after annealing) to ensure the neck surface is free of any oxide layer. A quick hit with a chamfer tool will also ensure no tiny burrs impact the drag on the pin. I’ve found for a given lot of brass and tightly controlled time (0.1 second increments) the behavior (pin drag) of the lot is very consistent. The oxide layer that forms on the neck will transfer to your dies you will see this relatively quickly as vertical scratches on the OD of the necks. When I was first annealing it took all of about 10 pieces to screw up my die. A quick polish took care of it and I’ve never had an issue since.
Where in the hell did I state zero spring back was the goal? Please point that out.
Here is some simple math... 0.222” mandrel and 0.221” pin. That’s ~0.001” of spring back. Bullet is 0.224”. That’s a total of 0.003” of expansion when the bullet is seated. That is springback on new LC18 brass and once fired LC18 brass that I dialed in on the anneal. If it isn’t annealed the springback is greater than 0.001”.
.224 - .221 is .003. Whip out the calculator if you can’t do it on your own. Good lord.
I understand this may not be intuitive if you haven’t done it but once you truly dial in the anneal you will see exactly why the pins are a viable approach to confirm your anneal. The only other tidbit I can add is that I SS tumble new and fired brass (after annealing) to ensure the neck surface is free of any oxide layer. A quick hit with a chamfer tool will also ensure no tiny burrs impact the drag on the pin. I’ve found for a given lot of brass and tightly controlled time (0.1 second increments) the behavior (pin drag) of the lot is very consistent. The oxide layer that forms on the neck will transfer to your dies you will see this relatively quickly as vertical scratches on the OD of the necks. When I was first annealing it took all of about 10 pieces to screw up my die. A quick polish took care of it and I’ve never had an issue since.
Where in the hell did I state zero spring back was the goal? Please point that out.
Here is some simple math... 0.222” mandrel and 0.221” pin. That’s ~0.001” of spring back. Bullet is 0.224”. That’s a total of 0.003” of expansion when the bullet is seated. That is springback on new LC18 brass and once fired LC18 brass that I dialed in on the anneal. If it isn’t annealed the springback is greater than 0.001”.
.224 - .221 is .003. Whip out the calculator if you can’t do it on your own. Good lord.
Challenged LOL, No. Just trying to help, what you are doing is what we generally call "picking fly shit out of pepper." That level of detail is not necessary for practical shooting and reloading purposes. People successfully use salt bath also. No, its not "annealing" but it is reaching the end goal they are after. Reaching a "factory annealed state" is not what they are after. They are just trying to make their brass the same every time, and looking at results on target, and over the life of brass.
Even if you have a body of work that commands attention. I.E. Show me all the stuff you have won. I still wouldn't take the time to pin gauge all my brass, because my results on target are fine, and my necks don't split. So why would I waste my time.
Stop with the dick measuring. Nothing I posted was about that but some people seem want to put words in my mouth. I was trying to bring some useful data to the thread not regurgitated crap that doesn’t work.
So are you saying that it is beneficial to only anneal brass partially at 750? Because everything I have been reading about C26000 cartridge brass says to realign grain structure you need around 1000 + F for FLASH annealing. 750 will work, but you have to hold it at that temp for longer periods of time but that will anneal the whole case and case head. Thats even whats on the AMP website like TSloper said. So, this is NOT what you want? To not fully anneal the neck / shoulder? What is our goal as a reloader with this brass type? What do we take from the industrial world?
C26000 Brass
They list a minimum of 800 F here and a max 1400F
Same here and here
More about time vs. temp Here
C26000 Brass
They list a minimum of 800 F here and a max 1400F
Same here and here
More about time vs. temp Here
Last edited:
Zero spring back is the result of heating the case to 1000 F and sizing minimally, as in using bushing dies or LCND.
Are you FL sizing in a standard die after annealing?
But you don’t have to fully realign grain structure for reloading. You just need to keep the neck from cracking.
With my current batch of FC cases I annealed after 13 firings and now I’m on 16 firings and prolly won’t have to anneal again cuz the case heads will let go before then.
I annealed them to 650 F and immediately felt the difference when sizing and expanding.
By these new standards of the noobs I shouldn’t have seen any difference because 650 is inadequate.
Again, how did you noobs determine what temp and what hardness level was ideal for accuracy?
Because all I see is you try to mimic factory brass and nobody ever set any accuracy records with factory new brass.
Yes, but the AMP machine is superb in the way it allows you to control the heat.
I anneal my 6.5x47L brass after every 4th firing using an Annie Annealer ~ 750-deg
When I miss a target, I can't blame it on the interval of annealing, nor the temp I anneal at.
When I miss a target, I can't blame it on the interval of annealing, nor the temp I anneal at.
Similar threads
