Has anyone tried using an inductor to anneal their brass. I have one I use for heating bolts,nuts, ect... It is an inductive heating tool that can generate heat very quickly in conductive objects without touching the object. I am asking because I have been kicking around the idea of making my own annealing machine and was trying to do some research on all available types of heatsources that could be used as well as fine tuned for consistancy.
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annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
- Thread starter maccrazy2
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Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Only the neck portion of the brass case should be annealed. The brass will be ruined if the case body and base are softened.
Only the neck portion of the brass case should be annealed. The brass will be ruined if the case body and base are softened.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
It is normally quite ok to anneal down to just past the shoulder on bottleneck cases but if you anneal regularly say after 5 to 8 reloads then annealing just the neck sometimes is ok also. Its the neck that gets the most work hardening.
I have done some experiments with heating case necks up with inductor coils using 12 volt DC current.
It can be done but by hand it is too slow and controlling the ammount of heat absorbed by the case is difficult without some kind of machine apparatus. As the battery looses power the heating ability changes .
If you had a system that worked off mains voltage and was safe to use then it could be viable.
I gave it away as I could see that it would cost a lot of money to come up with a working apparatus .
A small instant light gass torch a temp crayon and a rotary table that I already use for milling is cheap and effective.
It is normally quite ok to anneal down to just past the shoulder on bottleneck cases but if you anneal regularly say after 5 to 8 reloads then annealing just the neck sometimes is ok also. Its the neck that gets the most work hardening.
I have done some experiments with heating case necks up with inductor coils using 12 volt DC current.
It can be done but by hand it is too slow and controlling the ammount of heat absorbed by the case is difficult without some kind of machine apparatus. As the battery looses power the heating ability changes .
If you had a system that worked off mains voltage and was safe to use then it could be viable.
I gave it away as I could see that it would cost a lot of money to come up with a working apparatus .
A small instant light gass torch a temp crayon and a rotary table that I already use for milling is cheap and effective.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Hmmm... very interesting idea...
It will probably need some kind of pulse duration control, similar to a spot welder.
Hmmm... very interesting idea...
It will probably need some kind of pulse duration control, similar to a spot welder.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Like stated above. As long as you watch how much of the case you heat and keep an eye on how hot it gets each time, you should be able to do a good job with it.
While I have never actually worked WITH induction circuits, I have made parts for them. If you can make it work economical enough, you could have a great idea.
Like stated above. As long as you watch how much of the case you heat and keep an eye on how hot it gets each time, you should be able to do a good job with it.
While I have never actually worked WITH induction circuits, I have made parts for them. If you can make it work economical enough, you could have a great idea.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
I have a 110v unit already. I assume torches will be the easiest route. I was just curious if anyone has tried inductive heating before. I am ordering the heat marking pens and will do some testing when they arrive.
I have a 110v unit already. I assume torches will be the easiest route. I was just curious if anyone has tried inductive heating before. I am ordering the heat marking pens and will do some testing when they arrive.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
You mean like the one at the bottom of this link?
http://www.aeii.net/Inductor4.htm
I asked the manufacturer if it would work for this purpose and he said no.
"Thank you for your inquiry regarding our products and your application.
I have checked with our engineers and unfortunately our equipment will
not work for the application of which you are inquiring."
You mean like the one at the bottom of this link?
http://www.aeii.net/Inductor4.htm
I asked the manufacturer if it would work for this purpose and he said no.
"Thank you for your inquiry regarding our products and your application.
I have checked with our engineers and unfortunately our equipment will
not work for the application of which you are inquiring."
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Yep that is them. I have the mini at home and the max 3 at work. I mainly use them on steel but I thought they would work on brass as well. Maybe not. Oh well, I it was worth asking. Thanks everyone.
Yep that is them. I have the mini at home and the max 3 at work. I mainly use them on steel but I thought they would work on brass as well. Maybe not. Oh well, I it was worth asking. Thanks everyone.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Give it a try and see what happens.
This would not be the first time a manufacturers employee was wrong.
I was not willing to buy one just for this test, but if I already owned one I would test it.
Give it a try and see what happens.
This would not be the first time a manufacturers employee was wrong.
I was not willing to buy one just for this test, but if I already owned one I would test it.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Its just a question of power and/or signal characteristics. This is something you build, not something you buy. Its probably very cheap to make if you have the know-how.
http://www.ameritherm.com/overview_annealing.php
http://www.ameritherm.com/aboutinduction.php
http://www.ameritherm.com/PDFs/coil_design.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating
Its just a question of power and/or signal characteristics. This is something you build, not something you buy. Its probably very cheap to make if you have the know-how.
http://www.ameritherm.com/overview_annealing.php
http://www.ameritherm.com/aboutinduction.php
http://www.ameritherm.com/PDFs/coil_design.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
I agree.
Still, wasting one piece of brass to see what happens with the tool as-built is not a big investment.
I agree.
Still, wasting one piece of brass to see what happens with the tool as-built is not a big investment.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Induction heating works because of magnetism. Steel/iron/iron alloys can be induction heated.
Brass is nonmagnetic, and unless I'm very wrong, should not work.
However encasing a case neck in an iron/steel sleeve should heat the ferrous metal, and heat should be transferred by conduction to the brass.
Maybe.
Greg
Induction heating works because of magnetism. Steel/iron/iron alloys can be induction heated.
Brass is nonmagnetic, and unless I'm very wrong, should not work.
However encasing a case neck in an iron/steel sleeve should heat the ferrous metal, and heat should be transferred by conduction to the brass.
Maybe.
Greg
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
+1 Greg. We have an induction cooktop, and can only use ferrous metal pans to cook with...that means stainless steel and cast iron for the most part. We do have aluminum non-stick pans that use a mangnetic disk to transfer heat, and I imagine a similar principal would work well for annealing. Induction, in my experience, is VERY efficient....we'll never go back to cooking with gas.
Josh
+1 Greg. We have an induction cooktop, and can only use ferrous metal pans to cook with...that means stainless steel and cast iron for the most part. We do have aluminum non-stick pans that use a mangnetic disk to transfer heat, and I imagine a similar principal would work well for annealing. Induction, in my experience, is VERY efficient....we'll never go back to cooking with gas.
Josh
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Its easier to heat ferrous metals, but it does indeed work with non-ferrous metals.
Here is a vid showing copper bar being annealed:
http://www.ameritherm.com/video_annealing.html
Its easier to heat ferrous metals, but it does indeed work with non-ferrous metals.
Here is a vid showing copper bar being annealed:
http://www.ameritherm.com/video_annealing.html
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Yup, it does not have to be ferrous.
It is easier and probably cheaper to design the equipment around ferrous materials, but not an absolute.
Yup, it does not have to be ferrous.
It is easier and probably cheaper to design the equipment around ferrous materials, but not an absolute.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
OK, I learned something today; it was therefore a good day...
Greg
OK, I learned something today; it was therefore a good day...
Greg
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
I will give it a try when my heat pens arrive. I have heated brass with my tool before. I have plenty of scrap brass to practice on.
I will give it a try when my heat pens arrive. I have heated brass with my tool before. I have plenty of scrap brass to practice on.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Looks like he's aready posted them 6mmbr:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736571.0.html
Looks like he's aready posted them 6mmbr:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736571.0.html
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Awesome idea, but 360 for the little machine seems a bit much. I found this on the net:
Build your own induction heater
Induction Heater Home Brew
Josh
Awesome idea, but 360 for the little machine seems a bit much. I found this on the net:
Build your own induction heater
Induction Heater Home Brew
Josh
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
You have definitely sparked a bit of curiosity here, so let us know what you find.
And thanks. A lot.
You have definitely sparked a bit of curiosity here, so let us know what you find.
And thanks. A lot.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome idea, but 360 for the little machine seems a bit much. I found this on the net:
Build your own induction heater
Induction Heater Home Brew
Josh </div></div>
That second link is a Rick Astley video: "Never Gonna Give You Up".
Sniper's Hide: For the Sentimental Tactical Marksman... who's in touch with his feelings and emotions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome idea, but 360 for the little machine seems a bit much. I found this on the net:
Build your own induction heater
Induction Heater Home Brew
Josh </div></div>
That second link is a Rick Astley video: "Never Gonna Give You Up".
Sniper's Hide: For the Sentimental Tactical Marksman... who's in touch with his feelings and emotions.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like he's aready posted them 6mmbr:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736571.0.html </div></div>
Thats not me but that gives me hope that this may workout well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like he's aready posted them 6mmbr:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736571.0.html </div></div>
Thats not me but that gives me hope that this may workout well.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
I was chatting with CKA a while back about this idea.
Because this idea has been on my mind for quite some time, I have a few thoughts on the subject.....
The really interesting part of this method is that the only heat is coming from the case so using temp probes like an infrared thermometer would be perfectly reliable and will not give a false reading from the torch flame or other heating device. This means one can be more precise with temperature.
Another plus is that fact that the heat can be turned on and off at will, electronically if needed.
And yet another is that the case would probably heat evenly without needing to spin the case.....so long as it was centered in the inductor.
I can see someone building an annealer with these that would shut off when a precise temp is reached. A press-type would be slick....just raise the ram and the cycle starts, ending when the case has reached temp.
Another method would be to set up an infrared probe and leave the inductor running....raise the case into the inductor and watch the probe....dropping the ram when temp is reached. This could be done without the need to create a shut-off system. All I am missing is the inductor.
The only reason I did not go further was the message from the manufacturer stating he didn't think it would work.
I guess a min-ductor may be in my future.
I was chatting with CKA a while back about this idea.
Because this idea has been on my mind for quite some time, I have a few thoughts on the subject.....
The really interesting part of this method is that the only heat is coming from the case so using temp probes like an infrared thermometer would be perfectly reliable and will not give a false reading from the torch flame or other heating device. This means one can be more precise with temperature.
Another plus is that fact that the heat can be turned on and off at will, electronically if needed.
And yet another is that the case would probably heat evenly without needing to spin the case.....so long as it was centered in the inductor.
I can see someone building an annealer with these that would shut off when a precise temp is reached. A press-type would be slick....just raise the ram and the cycle starts, ending when the case has reached temp.
Another method would be to set up an infrared probe and leave the inductor running....raise the case into the inductor and watch the probe....dropping the ram when temp is reached. This could be done without the need to create a shut-off system. All I am missing is the inductor.
The only reason I did not go further was the message from the manufacturer stating he didn't think it would work.
I guess a min-ductor may be in my future.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome idea, but 360 for the little machine seems a bit much. I found this on the net:
Build your own induction heater
Induction Heater Home Brew
Josh </div></div>
That second link is a Rick Astley video: "Never Gonna Give You Up".
Sniper's Hide: For the Sentimental Tactical Marksman... who's in touch with his feelings and emotions. </div></div>
Kombayotch,
That's called getting Rick Roll'd
Josh
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awesome idea, but 360 for the little machine seems a bit much. I found this on the net:
Build your own induction heater
Induction Heater Home Brew
Josh </div></div>
That second link is a Rick Astley video: "Never Gonna Give You Up".
Sniper's Hide: For the Sentimental Tactical Marksman... who's in touch with his feelings and emotions. </div></div>
Kombayotch,
That's called getting Rick Roll'd
Josh
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
So, its like the pre-teen version of "Two girls, one cup"? I don't get it... when you use it as an adult, people just think that you like watching gay-ass music videos from the 80's and got your links crossed. Its kind of like shitting your pants to play a joke on someone. Even once you reveal it as intentional, you've still got the stigma afterwards...
Well, ok... you got me!... I guess...
So, its like the pre-teen version of "Two girls, one cup"? I don't get it... when you use it as an adult, people just think that you like watching gay-ass music videos from the 80's and got your links crossed. Its kind of like shitting your pants to play a joke on someone. Even once you reveal it as intentional, you've still got the stigma afterwards...
Well, ok... you got me!... I guess...
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its kind of like shitting your pants to play a joke on someone. Even once you reveal it as intentional, you've still got the stigma afterwards...
Well, ok... you got me!... I guess...
</div></div>
ROTFLMAO, priceless!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its kind of like shitting your pants to play a joke on someone. Even once you reveal it as intentional, you've still got the stigma afterwards...
Well, ok... you got me!... I guess...
ROTFLMAO, priceless!
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its kind of like shitting your pants to play a joke on someone. Even once you reveal it as intentional, you've still got the stigma afterwards... </div></div>
I can only imagine you speak from experience...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its kind of like shitting your pants to play a joke on someone. Even once you reveal it as intentional, you've still got the stigma afterwards... </div></div>
I can only imagine you speak from experience...
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Sorry for the hijack...back to inductor annealing.
Sorry for the hijack...back to inductor annealing.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry for the hijack...back to inductor annealing.</div></div>
Please.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry for the hijack...back to inductor annealing.</div></div>
Please.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Well I messed around with the inductor tonight and using an infrared temp gun it takes 9-13 seconds to reach 500deg. The blue marker on the case is just a blue sharpie. I just put it on there to watch the spread of the heat on the case neck. I tried the preformed "loop" which has aprox 1in I.D. I then switched to one with a .500 I.D. The smaller one heated faster. I still have not recieved my tempilac yet. I will use a stopwatch to find a more exact time to reach 475deg. once it gets here. The gun is a little hard to get the beam on the brass with the loop around it.
Well I messed around with the inductor tonight and using an infrared temp gun it takes 9-13 seconds to reach 500deg. The blue marker on the case is just a blue sharpie. I just put it on there to watch the spread of the heat on the case neck. I tried the preformed "loop" which has aprox 1in I.D. I then switched to one with a .500 I.D. The smaller one heated faster. I still have not recieved my tempilac yet. I will use a stopwatch to find a more exact time to reach 475deg. once it gets here. The gun is a little hard to get the beam on the brass with the loop around it.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
Rafael
Very interesting! I like your methodolgy on the press type of induction annealer I can totally visualize it. I think you should definately try it sounds like an awesome idea. I personally would choose the shut off type when the proper temp is reached but either sounds workable to me. Maybe something like a piggyback device that mounts onto your press and a adjustable shellholder that would allow you to control the amount of case to enter into the induction device.
Goodluck with your endeavor and let us know what you come up with!!!
Rafael
Very interesting! I like your methodolgy on the press type of induction annealer I can totally visualize it. I think you should definately try it sounds like an awesome idea. I personally would choose the shut off type when the proper temp is reached but either sounds workable to me. Maybe something like a piggyback device that mounts onto your press and a adjustable shellholder that would allow you to control the amount of case to enter into the induction device.
Goodluck with your endeavor and let us know what you come up with!!!
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
keep this up guys, as I am wanting an annealer, and have seen a number of good 'machines' displayed here.
I'm especially liking the electric unit, over torches. Just simply because of the 'open flame' reason. Whereas an electric 'appliance' can be so much more "IDIOT PROOF" once all the thinking has been done. And therefore it would be more effective in the end. My thoughts, anyways.
I've figured out how to do the "self-load=index=dump-cool" cycle, but the coil and it's electronics is beyond me.
keep this up guys, as I am wanting an annealer, and have seen a number of good 'machines' displayed here.
I'm especially liking the electric unit, over torches. Just simply because of the 'open flame' reason. Whereas an electric 'appliance' can be so much more "IDIOT PROOF" once all the thinking has been done. And therefore it would be more effective in the end. My thoughts, anyways.
I've figured out how to do the "self-load=index=dump-cool" cycle, but the coil and it's electronics is beyond me.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rookie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought the last time this came up, someone pointed out that there are some health concerns associated with induction??? </div></div>
Induction cooktops are prevalent and I have not heard of any dangers there.
In searching for info on hazards of induction I am finding more information on the added safety of induction over other heating methods for all the obvious reasons.
I am not in a position to purchase or tinker with the min-ductor at this time but I do apprecaite everyones input and the results so far from the OP.
I still think this is a good idea though the 9-second and longer heating time is not promising unless coupled with a fully automated machine; auto loading and ejecting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rookie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought the last time this came up, someone pointed out that there are some health concerns associated with induction??? </div></div>
Induction cooktops are prevalent and I have not heard of any dangers there.
In searching for info on hazards of induction I am finding more information on the added safety of induction over other heating methods for all the obvious reasons.
I am not in a position to purchase or tinker with the min-ductor at this time but I do apprecaite everyones input and the results so far from the OP.
I still think this is a good idea though the 9-second and longer heating time is not promising unless coupled with a fully automated machine; auto loading and ejecting.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
The miniductor is the smallest unit available. The one I have at work is a larger unit with more power output. I would attempt to build a powerful unit for the annealing machine if I can find some design plans that I can work with. I would suspect a stronger unit would reach temp in just a few seconds on 30 cal brass.
The miniductor is the smallest unit available. The one I have at work is a larger unit with more power output. I would attempt to build a powerful unit for the annealing machine if I can find some design plans that I can work with. I would suspect a stronger unit would reach temp in just a few seconds on 30 cal brass.
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
I like this. Great concept. I'm certain it can be perfected.
For my own purposes, I don't shoot enough centerfire ammo to justify the expense of a commercially made unit.
I'd love to find a guide to making one on my own, but I have the potential added issue of electromagnetic fields and my implanted defibrillator/pacemaker.
Sounds like an excellent cottage industry, though, as a fast turnaround annealing service.
Somebody could clean up, as it were.
Greg
I like this. Great concept. I'm certain it can be perfected.
For my own purposes, I don't shoot enough centerfire ammo to justify the expense of a commercially made unit.
I'd love to find a guide to making one on my own, but I have the potential added issue of electromagnetic fields and my implanted defibrillator/pacemaker.
Sounds like an excellent cottage industry, though, as a fast turnaround annealing service.
Somebody could clean up, as it were.
Greg
Re: annealing with an inductor? Anyone ever try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Induction heating works because of magnetism. Steel/iron/iron alloys can be induction heated.
Brass is nonmagnetic, and unless I'm very wrong, should not work.
However encasing a case neck in an iron/steel sleeve should heat the ferrous metal, and heat should be transferred by conduction to the brass.
Maybe.
Greg</div></div>
Greg, you are partially correct about magnetism and induction. I don't think the actual material itself has to be paramagnetic for induction to take place; it only has to be a good electrical conductor. Copper wire is not magnetic, but it is a pretty good conductor. Induction is the creation of electric current in metal when it is placed in a magnetic field. For the phenomenon to occur, one of 2 things needs to happen: the magnetic field has to be dynamically changing in strength or pulsating on/off, or the conductor needs to be in motion in a static or changing magnetic field.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Induction heating works because of magnetism. Steel/iron/iron alloys can be induction heated.
Brass is nonmagnetic, and unless I'm very wrong, should not work.
However encasing a case neck in an iron/steel sleeve should heat the ferrous metal, and heat should be transferred by conduction to the brass.
Maybe.
Greg</div></div>
Greg, you are partially correct about magnetism and induction. I don't think the actual material itself has to be paramagnetic for induction to take place; it only has to be a good electrical conductor. Copper wire is not magnetic, but it is a pretty good conductor. Induction is the creation of electric current in metal when it is placed in a magnetic field. For the phenomenon to occur, one of 2 things needs to happen: the magnetic field has to be dynamically changing in strength or pulsating on/off, or the conductor needs to be in motion in a static or changing magnetic field.
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