Night Vision Another F.N.G. polling the professionals

[PlinkIt]

So I've finally gotten an ATN PVS 14 gen 3 set up. With Head mount / weapon mount
now...

Plan is to set up a coyote rig using a Tavor

I'm under the impression the best method here is to head mount and use IR laser for most shooting. Also under the impression rifle mounting will wear down my units life a little faster so I'm not wanting to do any of that.

Now my question for those of you that have been through this, is there any benefit to getting an entry level NV optic to put on the Tavor, or will the PVS with IR laser be more useful than the cheaper scopes anyway? What's the best compliment for the PVS to mount on the rifle?

Also looking for insight on best weapon mounted IR laser / illuminator for whatever system you suggest. Thanks

 

[deersniper]

What is your budget. Get a Peq2. Get a used thermal scope out of the for sale sections.

 

[TheGerman]

So I've finally gotten an ATN PVS 14 gen 3 set up. With Head mount / weapon mount
now...

Plan is to set up a coyote rig using a Tavor

I'm under the impression the best method here is to head mount and use IR laser for most shooting. Also under the impression rifle mounting will wear down my units life a little faster so I'm not wanting to do any of that.

Now my question for those of you that have been through this, is there any benefit to getting an entry level NV optic to put on the Tavor, or will the PVS with IR laser be more useful than the cheaper scopes anyway? What's the best compliment for the PVS to mount on the rifle?

Also looking for insight on best weapon mounted IR laser / illuminator for whatever system you suggest. Thanks

Quick crash course:

- Stay away from the line of products most vendors have now that they tout as 'civilian legal' and is usually more than what you can find a real PEQ2A or PEQ15 for in the wild. There are legal ways to obtain them. Feel free to PM me if you would like to be filled in on this.

- Depending on your budget, PEQ2A or PEQ15 weapon mounted. The laser and illumination you will get from either will blow anything else away.

- You're also going to be much better of getting a PVS14 and mounting it on a helmet. You can get a NV scope or put your PVS14 in a mount behind a scope/RDS but its kind of a retarded in that you are required to look through the site, attached to the rifle, to basically see anything at night unless you are going to use white light as well (which is also stupid, and in some places illegal)

- Coyote hunting at night where you are going to be moving between stands at night as well as manipulating calls and other equipment will vastly benefit from helmet mounted NV. Helmet mounted NV also has great benefits outside of hunting.

I suggest:

- Find a used PVS14 that uses a quality tube and isn't fucked up with all sorts of blemishes or has been dropped out of an airplane
- Bump helmet (doubt you need a ballistic helmet) that needs a shroud, or you can get the Ops Core FAST but it has a molded shroud which I think is a negative thing
- USGI RHINO II mount until you want to spend money on a Wilcox or Norotos
- PEQ2A or PEQ15 on rifle with a thumb switch
- White light weapon light on weapon

If you want to get fancier you can then put a high lumen white light / IR light on the helmet. Get an IFF as well if you will be out at night with others with nightvision while hunting.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Quick crash course:

- Stay away from the line of products most vendors have now that they tout as 'civilian legal' and is usually more than what you can find a real PEQ2A or PEQ15 for in the wild. There are legal ways to obtain them. Feel free to PM me if you would like to be filled in on this.

- Depending on your budget, PEQ2A or PEQ15 weapon mounted. The laser and illumination you will get from either will blow anything else away.

- You're also going to be much better of getting a PVS14 and mounting it on a helmet. You can get a NV scope or put your PVS14 in a mount behind a scope/RDS but its kind of a retarded in that you are required to look through the site, attached to the rifle, to basically see anything at night unless you are going to use white light as well (which is also stupid, and in some places illegal)

- Coyote hunting at night where you are going to be moving between stands at night as well as manipulating calls and other equipment will vastly benefit from helmet mounted NV. Helmet mounted NV also has great benefits outside of hunting.

I suggest:

- Find a used PVS14 that uses a quality tube and isn't fucked up with all sorts of blemishes or has been dropped out of an airplane
- Bump helmet (doubt you need a ballistic helmet) that needs a shroud, or you can get the Ops Core FAST but it has a molded shroud which I think is a negative thing
- USGI RHINO II mount until you want to spend money on a Wilcox or Norotos
- PEQ2A or PEQ15 on rifle with a thumb switch
- White light weapon light on weapon

If you want to get fancier you can then put a high lumen white light / IR light on the helmet. Get an IFF as well if you will be out at night with others with nightvision while hunting.

You surely cannont be talking about this civilian legal we tout that has a full warranty and does not become a cool looking gun paper weight if it ever goes down. https://tnvc.com/shop/b-e-meyers-maw...visible-laser/

 

[TheGerman]

You gotta pay to play, and that's part of the deal as long as you know it up front.

Buying commercial grade AN/PEQs for more than what you can find actual Class III units for in the secondary market is kind of like fucking your sister.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Have you handled the MAWL and know it's capabilities?

 

[Red_SC]

For just a laser, I’ve been happy with this.

https://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-otal-class-1-ir-laser/

For kicking in doors you’ll want to have your illumination and laser on the same switch, but for most of us a stand-alone laser is fine. The class 1 laser is plenty bright enough.

 

[PlinkIt]

What is your budget. Get a Peq2. Get a used thermal scope out of the for sale sections.

I'm looking for an education here, so what does my budget have to be in order to shoot something the size of a dog at 300 - 400 yards at worst. I'm in Virginia so most of the area is wooded to hell and I'll be under 200 yards half the time. No open plains where I'm from

 

[PlinkIt]

Quick crash course:

- Stay away from the line of products most vendors have now that they tout as 'civilian legal' and is usually more than what you can find a real PEQ2A or PEQ15 for in the wild. There are legal ways to obtain them. Feel free to PM me if you would like to be filled in on this.

- Depending on your budget, PEQ2A or PEQ15 weapon mounted. The laser and illumination you will get from either will blow anything else away.

- You're also going to be much better of getting a PVS14 and mounting it on a helmet. You can get a NV scope or put your PVS14 in a mount behind a scope/RDS but its kind of a retarded in that you are required to look through the site, attached to the rifle, to basically see anything at night unless you are going to use white light as well (which is also stupid, and in some places illegal)

- Coyote hunting at night where you are going to be moving between stands at night as well as manipulating calls and other equipment will vastly benefit from helmet mounted NV. Helmet mounted NV also has great benefits outside of hunting.

I suggest:

- Find a used PVS14 that uses a quality tube and isn't fucked up with all sorts of blemishes or has been dropped out of an airplane
- Bump helmet (doubt you need a ballistic helmet) that needs a shroud, or you can get the Ops Core FAST but it has a molded shroud which I think is a negative thing
- USGI RHINO II mount until you want to spend money on a Wilcox or Norotos
- PEQ2A or PEQ15 on rifle with a thumb switch
- White light weapon light on weapon

If you want to get fancier you can then put a high lumen white light / IR light on the helmet. Get an IFF as well if you will be out at night with others with nightvision while hunting.

Thanks for the insight

I'm with you so far

I've got a PVS 14 that appears to be good to go

I currently only have the "skull crusher" type head gear, is using a helmet that much better?... I don't plan to be in a two way range and If the dogs start shooting back I may find a new hobby. Lol

I'll message you for some more insight as well, thanks

 

[PlinkIt]

You surely cannont be talking about this civilian legal we tout that has a full warranty and does not become a cool looking gun paper weight if it ever goes down. https://tnvc.com/shop/b-e-meyers-maw...visible-laser/

Just to follow up... Am I going to need that much laser to shoot a dog?.... Yikes that's almost the cost of buying another night vision set up...

 

[deersniper]

Well. Get a peq 15 or peq 2. That should handle the close in stuff. The either get a thermal spotter like a UTM and a PVS30. Or get a good thermal scope. LWTS is a great one. There is one in the classifieds. You are going to be 9-10K going this route. You could just get the Peq and a used Thor and be maybe 4-6K

 

[PlinkIt]

For just a laser, I’ve been happy with this.

https://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-otal-class-1-ir-laser/

For kicking in doors you’ll want to have your illumination and laser on the same switch, but for most of us a stand-alone laser is fine. The class 1 laser is plenty bright enough.

Thanks red, I'm certainly not kicking in doors... I'm just trying to hunt. What distances are the laser functional? I'm guessing you are using a PVS 14 as well?

 

[deersniper]

A helmet is better than the crusher. Much more comfortable believe it or not. The big benefit with the peqs is the super bright illuminator
r

 

[PlinkIt]

A helmet is better than the crusher. Much more comfortable believe it or not. The big benefit with the peqs is the super bright illuminator
r

Thanks

Seriously?... I would have thought the helmet was extra weight for nothing... Hmm ok

Anybody have suggestions for comfortable / functional bump helmet then? I'm afraid to ask how much I've got to budget for the helmet & mount now lol

Was trying to read the difference in the peq models, looks like the 15 has features I don't need like strobe rate adjustment... And the peq 2 has a high / low setting to keep from blooming on some models. Not sure I can get those models though... Either way I can't tell any benefits for the 15 at the minute

Trying to watch a bunch of YouTube to figure this stuff out sucks lol

 

[deersniper]

Post a WTB ad for a Peq you will get one. I don't really think u need one if u get a thermal scope You can probably find a cheap IR laser that will be good enough for close stuff.

 

[wigwamitus]

I have 5 lasers from lowest end to highest end ...

For me, standing unsupported shooting with the lasers, for hunting, I practice out to 150yds. I can hit 9 inch steel 90% of the time at 100yds standing unsupported ... At 150yds, I usually practice sitting on the 4-wheeler with support elbow on the handle bars and I can get 100% doing that.

So for me, using laser beyond that distance is just for designating targets to team mates, not shooting. If you parallel zero, then with any of my carbines and a 50/160 or 50/200 yd zero, I would be holding up around 16 inches at 300yds and I do it, but not with a laser ... I would be aiming at the sky.

And the laser max ir-laser I've had for 3.5 years still works. It cost $150. It is fine for hunting, especially with a custom kydex anti-bloom cover or a low power high focus ir illuminator on the helmet, great for bloom reduction. That's the main issue with the crapy lasers, too much beam divergence. But other wise they keep working year after year in my experience.

I realize I'm going against the grain ... but I don't think you need a zillion dollar, zillion mile laser to hunt.

 

[Red_SC]

Thanks red, I'm certainly not kicking in doors... I'm just trying to hunt. What distances are the laser functional? I'm guessing you are using a PVS 14 as well?

To give you an idea, this is the OTAL at 200 yards on the barn. It’s very easily visible in person, but beyond that range it can be hard to tell if it’s on an animal or the bush beside the animal. I don’t think a higher power laser would help.

I have a ballistic helmet, a bump helmet, and a Nightcap. The bump helmet is the most comfortable, with the nightcap being the most convenient to carry around.

 

[TheGerman]

Just to follow up... Am I going to need that much laser to shoot a dog?.... Yikes that's almost the cost of buying another night vision set up...

A PEQ2A or PEQ15 laser will be bright as hell at ranges you are going to be shooting coyotes at; so will the illuminator.

At further distances you will probably be using a clip on of some sort with an optic, so the laser wont matter as much as the illuminator will because the laser turns into more of letting people know what you are looking at/referring to (if you have friends out there looking too) and the illuminator helps turn things into daytime.

For carbine setup-

Helmet

Crye Airframe
Wilcox shroud
RQE Bridge
PVS14 with improved housing for a dovetail
(waiting on FLIR monocle for other side of RQE bridge)
Inforce weaponlight white light/IR switch
Peltor COMTACs with Unity Tactical rail mounts
CORE IR beacon
Internal helmet cover counterweight and battery rack for spares

Carbine with suppressor (depends on the carbine as far as optic/RDS, as this ranges from Aimpoint T1, ACOG, optic, but for a nighttime carbine without a clip on its usually the T1)
Surefire Scout weaponlight wire connected to a Surefire SRD-IT
PEQ15 with the other wire connected to a Surefire SRD-IT


Nighttime distance-

Helmet is the same

Gun is either a Mk12Mod1 with a PVS24 or PVS30 on it or a Barrett MRAD (all depends on how far we're shooting)
PEQ2A usually for longer distance as I swear the illuminator has a slightly higher output
For longer distances, this usually involves a spotter on a spotting scope with a clip on infront or a PVS14 behind it, also with a PEQ15 or PEQ2A on the rail as to be able to designate targets with the laser

 

[Trojan6]

Agree wholeheartedly with Wigwamitus. I've run a DBAL I2 with a torch pro for over three years killing hundreds of hogs at night. Have also used PEQ 15s and other military grade stuff. The problem I have with the more expensive lasers is the bloom effect you get on close targets. I typically stalk to within 30 yards on a sounder of pigs before engaging, and the DBAL I2 loses the precise aiming point I would prefer. Instead of a defined spot, the coarse hair of the pig typically causes the entire head to "glow". There are filters you can get to mitigate this, or find other "low-bloom" alternatives out there. My preferred setup is a second PVS 14 with a 3x magnifier on it behind and Eotech for the first shot, very precise aiming point. Once pigs start running then I transition to laser and helmet mounted PVS 14. That being said, I recently went separate direction and will use crimson trace low bloom only on rifle paired with helmet mounted PVS 14. My engagement ranges are also much closer than what you are describing, although I've gotten lucky a few times on running pigs out to 250-300. Based on what you've already purchased, I would recommend a 3x or 5x magnifier on your PVS 14 behind an Eotech (best I've found for working in conjunction with NV and having a useable sight picture), coupled with a very good illuminator for PID prior to shooting. This is assuming you are shooting 5.56/300blk or some other caliber that won't damage your PVS 14.

 

[CBDR]

Welcome aboard PlinkIt: Costs big bucks to do this gig at night. Step back and rethink how far into this hobby your willing to go.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'd get a weapon mounted laser next along with the helmet mount system. TBH with the distances that I've found the lasers to be effective I don't see a benefit to the restricted stuff, the commercial units work as intended.

As budget allows, a good thermal monocular for detection. If you get one like the M300W or SkeetIR that has a clip on mode that reduces the image size you can actually run it in a dual band setup with your PVS-14 on the other eye surprisingly well. After that I'd do a NV clip on and/or a thermal scope. If you get a M300W you can actually use it as a thermal scope since it has a reticle mode.

It gets expensive really fast but you can find some good deals. With the surplus NV clip ons available the thermal stuff will be your largest expenses.

 

[marvthehamster]

Something no one seems to have mentioned here yet is the danger that restricted lasers/illuminators pose to your vision. There’s a lot of ways to inadvertently point a powered on IR laser or illuminator at your eyes or a friends. This WILL cause almost immediate and irreparable damage to the eye. I don’t understand some folks obsession with using the restricted stuff, especially at the distances you engage targets with a weapon mounted laser. Figure around 100-150 yards in most scenarios as your max effective range. I can see my OTAL ir laser on targets over 600 yards away. Who in the hell tries to engage anything that far with a weapon mounted laser setup, especially on a 5.56 carbine? Take a look at the STEINER OTAL c for about $350 or the unimax Ir mentioned earlier for less than half.

Anyway, there’s a lot of very good LED commercial illuminators out there if you want stupid range for illumination. DBAL D2 gets good reviews (never used one myself) or even a torch pro or some other focusable beam illuminator will do what you need without great risk to your, or your hunting partners, vision. As I understand it, The commercial grade laser based illuminators don’t work very well for the most part. They’re anemic in the power department for that particular use. LED based illuminators are your best bet. You could even try a solar force ir light for a low cost option to get you up and running. Probably cost about $50.

As far as helmets, you’ll want a bump helmet designed for use with NVGs. Either team Wendy or ops core. I know everybody hates team Wendy around here but honestly their helmet comes with a better suspension system and shroud. The ops core is not terrible by any means and will work well. You can try airsoft helmets and upgrade the components but you’ll spend the same as you would on a genuine ops core by the time it’s done. For a mount, look at the norotos rhno 2. It’s got plenty of adjustability and will not dissapoint for the price. Expect to pay about $350 for a helmet/mount combo. Check the night vision equipment exchange over at arfcom for good deals on that stuff, too.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

If you don't understand why you want the good stuff then you haven't spent enough time under nods or using clip ons to get it. Laser illum is why many want restricted units. Any fucking ir laser works for carbine or pistol engagements/distance.

Vic...what's so impressive about the mawl in commercial version? Restricted power is restricted power and I remember you guys touting how great the atpial-c was when released. It sucks ass. So what's the mawl got thats so special that I'd wanna spend what I can get 2-3 peq2a for or a peq-15 and then some?

 

[deersniper]

Well they sell it. So it's great. Unless they stop selling it. Then something else is better.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

If you don't understand why you want the good stuff then you haven't spent enough time under nods or using clip ons to get it. Laser illum is why many want restricted units. Any fucking ir laser works for carbine or pistol engagements/distance.

Vic...what's so impressive about the mawl in commercial version? Restricted power is restricted power and I remember you guys touting how great the atpial-c was when released. It sucks ass. So what's the mawl got thats so special that I'd wanna spend what I can get 2-3 peq2a for or a peq-15 and then some?

Hi ya...The MAWL C1+ IR Lum is on par with the restricted units IR Lum and it has a warranty and can always be sent in for repair even if and when the warranty expires. You can never do that with any of the LE or Mil only units if they ever go down. They will never be sent back to ya due to FDA regs and they become a non-operational "look cool gadget"

As for the APTIAL-C's or any of the other Class 1/3R laser units, they don't IMHO "suck ass" as you mentioned, they just have MUCH shorter IR Lum range of 150 yards (which I think is key) vs. he MAWL-C1. Pic below of the MAWL-C1+ (right) vs. PEQ-15 restricted set at hi/hi. Treeline at approx. 300 yards. Restricted units IR pointers are in the 8 kilometer range and most of us to not need the to be calling in JDAM strikes so the .7mW C1 IR pointers are sufficient out to 400 yards.

Listen, I get it about the price of the MAWL, THEY ARE EXPENSIVE, but it beats down everything out there in the Class 1/3R laser arena and it has many other features all other restricted units do not have. So many to list but you can see them all here. https://tnvc.com/shop/b-e-meyers-maw...visible-laser/

I wish the silly FDA law would allow for all responsible law abiding US citizens who have a right to own a gun can have a right to purchase restricted IR lasers, but until then the MAWL-C1 is the very closest anyone will get thus far.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

vic...you make my point exactly. the atpial-c does suck ass because of exactly that...shit illum. as i said before...those of us that want them and not for the dumb ass cool guy factor or clone hobby want them for the damn laser illuminator. any shitty class one aiming laser that retains zero works for carbine and pistol work... lets cut the crap and say it how it is. 150-300yd illumination is unacceptable for what we do. the pic you posted sure as hell doesnt look like any laser illum from a full 40-50mw laser device like a full power peq. i have used them extensively and routinely illuminate targets to 1000yd so i know what they do and how they work.

now...if the mawl has a laser illum diode i cannot see how it can be worth a shit since it cannot be more than .7mw of power. so that means if it kicks ass it has to have a led illum....which i nor many others doing long range work and observation want. so we buy restricted gear and take our chances to get the performance we need.

 

[deersniper]

So I've finally gotten an ATN PVS 14 gen 3 set up. With Head mount / weapon mount
now...

Plan is to set up a coyote rig using a Tavor

I'm under the impression the best method here is to head mount and use IR laser for most shooting. Also under the impression rifle mounting will wear down my units life a little faster so I'm not wanting to do any of that.

Now my question for those of you that have been through this, is there any benefit to getting an entry level NV optic to put on the Tavor, or will the PVS with IR laser be more useful than the cheaper scopes anyway? What's the best compliment for the PVS to mount on the rifle?

Also looking for insight on best weapon mounted IR laser / illuminator for whatever system you suggest. Thanks

you can find nice scopes in the used sections. A few raptors sold a couple weeks ago. They would be great for the mid to long range shots.

 

[PlinkIt]

Ok so to sum up and make sure I’m following

I can get a $300 civilian grade laser that will serve my purpose for point & shoot

but

The only Illuminator I can buy to get any range is either a 2nd hand restricted unit, or a $2,500 MAWL unit?

am I following that correctly?

 

[Victor-TNVC]

vic...you make my point exactly. the atpial-c does suck ass because of exactly that...shit illum. as i said before...those of us that want them and not for the dumb ass cool guy factor or clone hobby want them for the damn laser illuminator. any shitty class one aiming laser that retains zero works for carbine and pistol work... lets cut the crap and say it how it is. 150-300yd illumination is unacceptable for what we do. the pic you posted sure as hell doesnt look like any laser illum from a full 40-50mw laser device like a full power peq. i have used them extensively and routinely illuminate targets to 1000yd so i know what they do and how they work.

now...if the mawl has a laser illum diode i cannot see how it can be worth a shit since it cannot be more than .7mw of power. so that means if it kicks ass it has to have a led illum....which i nor many others doing long range work and observation want. so we buy restricted gear and take our chances to get the performance we need.

Tried to be cordial, but I see where your going. COOL, lets cut the crap then...

You have NOT used the MAWL, nor had hands on so you dont hae a clue what you're taking about. You also don't have a clue about the power output on a PEQ-2 or PEQ-15. Power output on the IR Lum with BOTH standard PEQ-2A's and the restricted PEQ-15 ATPIAL's is 25-30mW MAX , not 40-50mW which is pure B.S. For a person who used these exclusively, you should be familiar with the official power rating of the IR Illuminators.

You also keep ignoring the fact on what do you do for warranty work if anything goes down? So you then become the cool guy with an expensive paper weight on your gun? I know, in your eyes, its OK to spend 1500 large on an illegal device and lets not forget how many out there who have received knocks on the door after hours to confiscate the so-called legally obtained device. Please do not try to tell us this not happened countless times, I know factually this still happens today.

Rock on KillSwitch, when you get a MAWL let us know, and then you will understand its capabilities and how B.E. Meyers designed the laserS in this system because everyone who uses it says the same thing and that includes a HUGE bunch of heavy hitters in the shoot guys in the face community. Good luck.

Edit, this awhile back from Matt Meyers. A guy who knows his way around IR lasers. Pay attention to the design elements that may shed some light on a few things before you pass judgment...Almost forgot to mention the MAWL also kicks the shit out of both the full power PEQ-2A's, and PEQ-15's beam quality with not one, NOT ONE beam artifact vs. PEQ's. It's the cleanest beam most have ever seen built into a laser system. <OUT>

From Matt Meyers...

Class 1 Plus™ = Irradiance on Target
The power balance of infrared illumination and pointing irradiance at different ranges becomes critical as commercial night vision quality continually increases, which is why MAWL-C1+ brings settings specific for close range to long range target engagement. By utilizing a uniquely arrayed laser core, the MAWL-C1+ is able to incorporate a laser illuminator capable of outperforming other civilian legal laser systems on the market, and also outperforms many restricted devices. This provides the user with a distinctive and functional near infrared illuminator with unrivaled irradiance on target, allowing for positive identification of objects, the ability to surpass many photonic barriers, as well as faster target acquisition either on the range or in the field. On top of this, the visible green laser pointer in the MAWL-C1+ has selectable low-power settings for close range boresight precision that is also slaved to the near infrared pointers. Once the user has zeroed the visible green laser, the infrared lasers are also automatically zeroed, getting you into the field faster at night. By featuring centralized, co-aligned emitters, the MAWL ensures that all beams are simultaneously on target, regardless of distance.

Class 1 Plus™ = Beam Clarity
Our beam is our brand, and the incredibly smooth illumination quality of the MAWL-C1+ is the same as in the standard MAWL-DA, eliminating the distracting artifacts (a.k.a. greasy fingerprint spots) that many civilian and restricted laser devices possess. Not only does this clean energy performance improve your illumination of the target area, it makes low Figure-of-Merit (FOM) night vision devices look better by providing increased ambient and directional near infrared illumination.


Use What You Already Own
The MAWL is designed to be the best laser on the market, and works with and compliments a variety of other high-end systems. The MAWL-C1+ is designed to work with all MIL-STD/NSWC Crane Laser Lead remotes, which include the Unity Tactical/TNVC TAPS™ and TAPS Pro™ series remote cables, the SureFire SR07-D-IT, as well as L3 and Steiner remote activation cables. In addition to this, the MAWL series are designed to work in parallel with the SureFire M300 Mini-Scout Light® to maximize rail space efficiency.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

First off I have never used a mawl aside of hand holding one at shot show. I never claimed to and in fact asked YOU what was so great about it considering its still a class 1 device.

I am ignoring the fact that theres no warranty to be had. there isn't warranty with a lot of the nv gear people buy and take chances on. its how the world turns.

my bad on the power output on the illum. I would love to hear and see some feed back from these "face shooters" on the long range illumination capability of the mawl. im all ears.

 

[marvthehamster]

Ok so to sum up and make sure I’m following

I can get a $300 civilian grade laser that will serve my purpose for point & shoot

but

The only Illuminator I can buy to get any range is either a 2nd hand restricted unit, or a $2,500 MAWL unit?

am I following that correctly?

With regard to the ir laser pointer: yes, in my opinion.

With regard to the illuminator: no, in my opinion.

There are are folks, like our friend killswitch, with specific wants or needs in an illuminator that can only be satisfied with a restricted power, laser based illuminator. If you want to light up targets at 1000 yards and give no visible signature from your illuminator, yea I guess you gotta have the hi power laser shit. I’ll reiterate that it’ll not only light up your target, it’ll also fry your eyes quicker than you can blink if you make a mistake with it. There’s a current thread in another NV forum with a tale of exactly this scenario where a hunter blasted a pig, got excited and forgot to power off the illuminator on his “suck ass” full power peq15. Vision damage ensues.

Btw, I have spent time with restricted power units while serving in the Corps, as a grunt, through 4 deployments. Used PVS 17 as well for passive aiming. They’re cool, yes. But I really do think for the OP’s needs of shooting yotes at around 200 yards it just ain’t the right tool. Im also not saying I think they should be illegal for civilian ownership and use. Let’s not go down that rabbit hole.... also as Vic pointed out there’s a lot of stolen units out there. If the OP isn’t versed in spotting a stolen unit, which he probably isn’t since he’s asking basic questions about lasers, why would he go through the trouble of navigating that scenario?

So in summary, OP, for a weapon mounted laser/illuminator combo I think you’d be well served with an OTAL-C ir laser paired up with a good led based illuminator. The illuminator will emit some red light directly to the front and may be visible, at times, by certain critters. You’ll have to work out switching and mounting but it’s probably your best bet, given your intended use. Another option might be the DBAL I-2 single spectrum which incorporates the ir laser and illuminator into one unit. It’s laser based so I don’t think you should expect great rage from the illuminator (think 100 yards-ish depending on light conditions). Either way you’ll pay $500-$700 for good stuff depending on used or new purchase.

In a slight aside, and at the peril of incurring wrath from the “max power” crowd, I think that steering the OP toward a full power unit for his first foray into NV aiming equipment is a bit like encouraging a 16 year old to buy the used corvette for his first ride. Yea, they’re fast and cool as hell...they’re also way too much car for the average new driver. The Cost of ownership, higher skill required for proficiency, smaller error margin, and multiple other reasons make the vette a less than ideal solution for newly licensed drivers. Same with the restricted lasers. In the right hands they’re an awesome tool that can do really neat shit. In the wrong hands it’s just a recipe for frustration and/or dangerous situations. I’m all for ‘Murcia and shit too, I love my guns and NV stuff. Buy whatever the hell you want, but for Pete’s sake let’s not pretend there’s bad advice for beginners in this world just like everywhere else. Just my opinion and I’m just some idiot on the internet named after a hamster so don’t put too much stock in it.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

With regard to the ir laser pointer: yes, in my opinion.

With regard to the illuminator: no, in my opinion.

There are are folks, like our friend killswitch, with specific wants or needs in an illuminator that can only be satisfied with a restricted power, laser based illuminator. If you want to light up targets at 1000 yards and give no visible signature from your illuminator, yea I guess you gotta have the hi power laser shit. I’ll reiterate that it’ll not only light up your target, it’ll also fry your eyes quicker than you can blink if you make a mistake with it. There’s a current thread in another NV forum with a tale of exactly this scenario where a hunter blasted a pig, got excited and forgot to power off the illuminator on his “suck ass” full power peq15. Vision damage ensues.

Btw, I have spent time with restricted power units while serving in the Corps, as a grunt, through 4 deployments. Used PVS 17 as well for passive aiming. They’re cool, yes. But I really do think for the OP’s needs of shooting yotes at around 200 yards it just ain’t the right tool. Im also not saying I think they should be illegal for civilian ownership and use. Let’s not go down that rabbit hole.... also as Vic pointed out there’s a lot of stolen units out there. If the OP isn’t versed in spotting a stolen unit, which he probably isn’t since he’s asking basic questions about lasers, why would he go through the trouble of navigating that scenario?

So in summary, OP, for a weapon mounted laser/illuminator combo I think you’d be well served with an OTAL-C ir laser paired up with a good led based illuminator. The illuminator will emit some red light directly to the front and may be visible, at times, by certain critters. You’ll have to work out switching and mounting but it’s probably your best bet, given your intended use. Another option might be the DBAL I-2 single spectrum which incorporates the ir laser and illuminator into one unit. It’s laser based so I don’t think you should expect great rage from the illuminator (think 100 yards-ish depending on light conditions). Either way you’ll pay $500-$700 for good stuff depending on used or new purchase.

In a slight aside, and at the peril of incurring wrath from the “max power” crowd, I think that steering the OP toward a full power unit for his first foray into NV aiming equipment is a bit like encouraging a 16 year old to buy the used corvette for his first ride. Yea, they’re fast and cool as hell...they’re also way too much car for the average new driver. The Cost of ownership, higher skill required for proficiency, smaller error margin, and multiple other reasons make the vette a less than ideal solution for newly licensed drivers. Same with the restricted lasers. In the right hands they’re an awesome tool that can do really neat shit. In the wrong hands it’s just a recipe for frustration and/or dangerous situations. I’m all for ‘Murcia and shit too, I love my guns and NV stuff. Buy whatever the hell you want, but for Pete’s sake let’s not pretend there’s bad advice for beginners in this world just like everywhere else. Just my opinion and I’m just some idiot on the internet named after a hamster so don’t put too much stock in it.

I don't think anyone is saying there aren't dangers in using lasers. there are dangers using ANY laser including the piece of shit on your key chain. that said, I also don't think using a reference from a dude that slapped a weapon muzzle up in his truck, let it bounce around pointed at his fucking face, mind you... and didn't check or unfuck his gear is a good example seeing as he could have simply blown his own head off as easily as causing eye damage yet here he is still able to have a loaded weapon...

 

[wigwamitus]

... The only Illuminator I can buy to get any range is either a 2nd hand restricted unit, or a $2,500 MAWL unit?

Try this one ...

https://www.amazon.com/Luna-Optics-...12531536&sr=8-9&keywords=ir-laser+illuminator

Read the comments to the product for some "hints"

 

[wigwamitus]

I think KSEs comments are helping me realize why I've never seen much benefit to "ir-illuminators". All the ones I've tried SUCK !!

I think I have 4 ... two of the T-20s ... an Armasight B850 and a Pular L915.

I run the B850 and the L915 on my helmets and they are useful for lighting up the eyes of the rats hiding in the wood pile and for reducing bloom in lasers close in. But that's about it. As far as navigating in the woods, the combination of the passive i2 14 and the thermal I wear on my head work better than turning on the illuminator which bounces off the vegetation and washes out the view.

I took one of the T-20s out last night with a 14 and looked around. At that time, 2300 local, we had a big moon up there. At 200yds and closer the illuminator effects were clearly differentiable from the no-illuminator view. But the illuminator did nothing shining it out 500yds across the alfalfa patch ... no difference reflected on the tree line at 500yds.
Likewise a mineral feeder on top of a ridge at 405yds, no visible difference between using the illuminator and not. And the illuminator cannot really penetrate usefully thru even sparse tree lines, too much ir light bouncing off the vegetation to enable me to see any faint advantage in the woods beyond the outer tree line.

So maybe those super duper illuminators are worth something. I've been told to get the Luna-ELIR-3 and follow the instructions. So I will add that to my wish list.



So getting a low cost ir-laser for aiming works ... but if you want a decent illuminator, that probably needs to be a separate gadget. So that's the issue with getting the high cost "integrated" boxes that come with ir-laser and illuminator. The ir-laser will work, but the illuminator is not value added and yet you spent a mint. So perhaps better to buy non-integrated solutions, Low cost ir-laser, higher cost illuminator like the Luna.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I have a DBAL-D2 and some other LED based illuminators. They are powerful and work awesome other than the size, visible signature and inability to really fine tune the aim of the illuminator and no matter how much you focus it down there is always at least some spill.

With a laser illuminator you can point the beam exactly where you want it and it will ONLY illuminate anything inside the focus area. The con is the illumination isn't as consistent and even as LEDs.

For use with a clip on I don't give a damn how awesome the illuminator is on the D2 or Mawl. It doesn't do you any good if all the spill washes out the distant target you're trying to see/hit. That's where a full power laser illuminator shines.

To the op the class 1 versions will probably work for you if you're shooting inside 200yds. If you feel the need for a stronger illuminator without a visible signature the LUNA is the easiest and cheapest one to get ahold of and stronger than most at 90mw(advertised). It has its drawbacks with beam wandering a bit when focus is adjusted but being able to dial the power up from 0-100% is very nice.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I have a DBAL-D2 and some other LED based illuminators. They are powerful and work awesome other than the size, visible signature and inability to really fine tune the aim of the illuminator and no matter how much you focus it down there is always at least some spill.

With a laser illuminator you can point the beam exactly where you want it and it will ONLY illuminate anything inside the focus area. The con is the illumination isn't as consistent and even as LEDs.

For use with a clip on I don't give a damn how awesome the illuminator is on the D2 or Mawl. It doesn't do you any good if all the spill washes out the distant target you're trying to see/hit. That's where a full power laser illuminator shines.

To the op the class 1 versions will probably work for you if you're shooting inside 200yds. If you feel the need for a stronger illuminator without a visible signature the LUNA is the easiest and cheapest one to get ahold of and stronger than most at 90mw(advertised). It has its drawbacks with beam wandering a bit when focus is adjusted but being able to dial the power up from 0-100% is very nice.

Hey what do you know! Another dude that gets it cause he's used them and actually knows.

 

[Strykervet]

Find a PEQ2 and be done with it. Harder to find since they don't really use 'em much anymore and since combat losses that reappear are reintegrated back into the system, as opposed to being totally written off as they were in the past. Some cops get 'em and resell 'em too. Only caveat to this is that you can't send them back for repair, so take care of it. They're well built and tough, but it'll last your life if you take care of it.

For your hunting, I'd imagine the best setup to be a lower cost FLIR handheld spotter and quality clip on night vision to go in front of your day scope. Then you'll want an illuminator that has some reach. Another route you can go is to use only a clip on thermal and a day scope. Back the day scope all the way down to lowest mag. and use it to spot, zoom in to shoot.

I'd buy that Crye soft cover before the helmet, because you may find you don't need the helmet. I have a light Crye ballistic helmet (I'll sell it if you want it, has ALL the extras too) that I've literally worn about ten minutes total. It's nice, but when I got that soft cover I just stopped using it. For PVS14's, you can use a polymer shroud and a Velcro battery pocket in the back and it's about perfect. The batteries offset the weight in the front (and keep spares on hand). Seriously feels like a ballcap with chin straps. Yeah, get that first. There are more expensive skull crushers, but you won't need 'em with the 14's.

TNVC is who I deal with when I buy night vision and related gear, Vic has always done me right and he doesn't lie or blow smoke up your ass. He's honest, and that's rare in this industry. He can't sell you a restricted laser (he couldn't if he wanted to really, they ship direct from factory IIRC). So he has to focus on what civilian lasers can do and highlight their assets. FWIW, most people don't really need or use the high power settings on the PEQ2's, etc. The dimmer beams can be seen fine and don't bloom or halo like the high power beams can, so in this case a .7mW laser only would be fine. The high power illuminator is nice to have, but I understand there are now LED illuminators that can really reach out there. You have a lot of options. But I'd call Vic and discuss it with him on the phone, you'll learn a lot that way and he can help you come up with the right rig. If you feel you still need a PEQ2, he can still sell you everything else.

If you find you want that helmet, PM me. Oh, it's a Large I think.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Talking warranty to avoid having a tacticool paper weight is pretty laughable when they pretty much all only have a one year warranty anyway. Unless you're buying some airsoft crap I doubt you'd have a problem within a year outside of receiving a lemon. What happens after that? What's the bill going to be to repair, and is it repairable?

For LR performance I'd take my chances with the restricted stuff getting something I know the performance of to begin with, and as long as you receive a good one then it has most likely been used enough for issues to have already popped up if it was a dud. For short range (200 yards and in) coyote blasting the commercial units will do fine.

Is the MAWL a good unit? I don't know and I don't know anyone who has used one and the only one touting it here is a vendor that sells it.

 

[Nate O.]

I've learned to take Vics advice with a grain of salt....

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Talking warranty to avoid having a tacticool paper weight is pretty laughable when they pretty much all only have a one year warranty anyway. Unless you're buying some airsoft crap I doubt you'd have a problem within a year outside of receiving a lemon. What happens after that? What's the bill going to be to repair, and is it repairable?

For LR performance I'd take my chances with the restricted stuff getting something I know the performance of to begin with, and as long as you receive a good one then it has most likely been used enough for issues to have already popped up if it was a dud. For short range (200 yards and in) coyote blasting the commercial units will do fine.

Is the MAWL a good unit? I don't know and I don't know anyone who has used one and the only one touting it here is a vendor that sells it.

The 1 year warranty after a LEGAL unit expires does mean you can STILL send it in to the manufacturer where they will service it AND return it back to you. This will NOT happen with illegally purchased units, you will never get it serviced, nor returned. Hope this helps.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

how about a through the optic video of a mawl vs a full power peq illumination on steel at 600yd using a good day optic and clip on. that's an easy average test and puts you at the outer edge of what you need for clip on target id distance

if you like i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15

 

[wigwamitus]

<< i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15>> I would like that .. one vote from the mud hole on the left !!!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The 1 year warranty after a LEGAL unit expires does mean you can STILL send it in to the manufacturer where they will service it AND return it back to you. This will NOT happen with illegally purchased units, you will never get it serviced, nor returned. Hope this helps.

You missed my point. What does it cost to service these units after the warranty is up if something goes wrong? Is it even worth it? IMO a 1 year warranty on a product is pretty much useless outside of making sure you didn't get a dud.

I understand that you can send a commercial unit in for repair and you will get it back and have the option to repair... BUT... it IS NOT illegal to possess a "restricted" laser, only to sell or manufacture it. Assuming that laser is not stolen govt property I have to seriously question how any manufacturer could legally confiscate someones property solely because they sent it in for service. Refuse to service it? Yes absolutely, it's their right to refuse service to anyone for any reason unless you have a contract stating otherwise but to confiscate someones property who doesn't illegally possess it and is not the person(s) who committed the crime by selling it cannot possibly be legal. That's theft plain and simple... Unless the unit is determined to be stolen property.

I'm not too worried about a second hand restricted unit failing and needing service. I'm sure they do occasionally but I've never actually seen or heard of a case of it happening and some of them have been put through the ringer.

I'm not suggesting that people go out and buy a restricted unit. If a commercial unit works for your application it would make no sense to buy anything else and the main benefit I see (assuming you know how to safely operate one) is not having to worry about whether or not the device you receive is stolen property. The piddly one year warranty is hardly an advantage IMO. If you need restricted power however then you should buy that, and I think most who do so know the potential risks so there's no need to stress it so much. I also think most who buy them don't give a shit either.

Making sure people know the risks of buying a restricted unit is one thing, not condoning the purchase and ILLEGAL SALE of a restricted unit (IE: suggesting they shop for one second hand) is also understandable but trying to scare someone from buying it if they it's what they need is a real turn off to consumers, just consider that. Selling your product to a potential buyer is a much better tactic than trashing the competition or using scare tactics. Present the product, give them the facts and let them decide.

I know this probably will not be taken well but please don't see this as a "call out". I think overall your company has a great thing going and without a doubt offers some wonderful products but your sale tactics could use some evaluation, I see a lot of people who are turned off by a lot of your comments and I just don't see how they help business in any way. My $.02.

 

[deersniper]

how about a through the optic video of a mawl vs a full power peq illumination on steel at 600yd using a good day optic and clip on. that's an easy average test and puts you at the outer edge of what you need for clip on target id distance

if you like i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15

Sounds awesome. Let's see through the scope pics with a Peq2, Peq15, Luna, and then civi special MAWL. My cop buddy has a Peq 2 that could be lent for the test.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I don't have a mawl or access to one. tnvc would have to do that but I have access to everything else you listed. I will film it through my torrey pines dead eye like we film our hunts through. should be solid representation.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

You missed my point. What does it cost to service these units after the warranty is up if something goes wrong? Is it even worth it? IMO a 1 year warranty on a product is pretty much useless outside of making sure you didn't get a dud.

I understand that you can send a commercial unit in for repair and you will get it back and have the option to repair... BUT... it IS NOT illegal to possess a "restricted" laser, only to sell or manufacture it. Assuming that laser is not stolen govt property I have to seriously question how any manufacturer could legally confiscate someones property solely because they sent it in for service. Refuse to service it? Yes absolutely, it's their right to refuse service to anyone for any reason unless you have a contract stating otherwise but to confiscate someones property who doesn't illegally possess it and is not the person(s) who committed the crime by selling it cannot possibly be legal. That's theft plain and simple... Unless the unit is determined to be stolen property.

I'm not too worried about a second hand restricted unit failing and needing service. I'm sure they do occasionally but I've never actually seen or heard of a case of it happening and some of them have been put through the ringer.

I'm not suggesting that people go out and buy a restricted unit. If a commercial unit works for your application it would make no sense to buy anything else and the main benefit I see (assuming you know how to safely operate one) is not having to worry about whether or not the device you receive is stolen property. The piddly one year warranty is hardly an advantage IMO. If you need restricted power however then you should buy that, and I think most who do so know the potential risks so there's no need to stress it so much. I also think most who buy them don't give a shit either.

Making sure people know the risks of buying a restricted unit is one thing, not condoning the purchase and ILLEGAL SALE of a restricted unit (IE: suggesting they shop for one second hand) is also understandable but trying to scare someone from buying it if they it's what they need is a real turn off to consumers, just consider that. Selling your product to a potential buyer is a much better tactic than trashing the competition or using scare tactics. Present the product, give them the facts and let them decide.

I know this probably will not be taken well but please don't see this as a "call out". I think overall your company has a great thing going and without a doubt offers some wonderful products but your sale tactics could use some evaluation, I see a lot of people who are turned off by a lot of your comments and I just don't see how they help business in any way. My $.02.

I do not think this is a call out, I speak the truth and always have and it keep customers out of trouble. If it rubs some folks the wrong way so be it. NEVER been in this business for the almighty profit dollar and give all my customers the shirt off my back if needed and always been that way.

As for returns with warranty lasers such as with Steiner and L3, I have never seen a return AFTER the warranty expires costing much at all. In fact, I just had one of the original C1 A2's go down with a flickering green vis laser from a customer of ours. The only cost was shipping, they did not even charge him for parts or labor etc.

You also miss the point of possessing a restricted laser. This has been covered for years around here and elsewhere. I never said it's illegal to own a restricted IR laser and wish (I've said this a thousand times too), that all responsible US citizens who own guns can purchase these so not sure how I can be accused of scaring anyone. I'm simply stating facts.

What I have said over and over again, IT IS ILLEGAL FOR ANY PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVE AN FDA VARIANCE TO EITHER MANUFACTURE OR SELL TO AN UNQUALIFIED ENTITY. There are NO individual LE, FED or MIL sales period from the manufacturer. All orders for restricted lasers have to be done on official Agency PO and then units are DROP SHIPPED DIRECT to the agency who also sign legal agreements with the Laser Manufacture that the units will either be destroyed or sent back to the manufacturer when their duty cycles are over with the Dept. All agencies are restricted in re-selling any restricted IR lasers as they do not have any variances set up with the FDA. The only grey area of this was approx. 6 years ago a DOE agency sold off approx.100 restricted A2 units to a FFL dealer which caused a huge uproar with several DOE personnel and several job loses over that one.

As for the "legal confiscation" of a manufacturer if he receives a restricted unit from a unqualified entity? Here in is the crux of what you are missing. It's not the laser manufacturing confiscating the said item...They are simply abiding by law, and they cannot return a restricted laser to an unqualified person without that person having a FDA variance. We have seen hundreds of these cases over the years and 99% of these units were either stolen or sold off illegally from an agency or Mil member. So yes, you may hate to hear this, but except for the DOE units I talked about all restricted units out there are indeed illegal that are re-sold based on current regs. Ilegal to own? NO, but the re-sale itself was and is illegal to begin with where the unit originated from the re-sale and this is why we have seen HUNDREDS of these units being confiscated over the years and HUGE Ebay sting operations and elsewhere. This is not any scare tactics but FACT we have seen first hand.

In closing, these are not "sales tactics", nor internet lore. Just facts from over 10 years worth of working with BOTH restricted lasers and civilian lasers. We've had enough meetings with our attorney's, laser manufactures and several meetings with the FDA over the years to know a few things. Hope this helps.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

Talking warranty to avoid having a tacticool paper weight is pretty laughable when they pretty much all only have a one year warranty anyway. Unless you're buying some airsoft crap I doubt you'd have a problem within a year outside of receiving a lemon. What happens after that? What's the bill going to be to repair, and is it repairable?

For LR performance I'd take my chances with the restricted stuff getting something I know the performance of to begin with, and as long as you receive a good one then it has most likely been used enough for issues to have already popped up if it was a dud. For short range (200 yards and in) coyote blasting the commercial units will do fine.

Is the MAWL a good unit? I don't know and I don't know anyone who has used one and the only one touting it here is a vendor that sells it.

You may want to research the MAWL out there on your internet search routines. They're are plenty of users out there, MANY who speak the truth. I encourage you to seek out the truth on this device and some of the folks who were responsible in designing it. You do not have to believe me.

 

[PlinkIt]

how about a through the optic video of a mawl vs a full power peq illumination on steel at 600yd using a good day optic and clip on. that's an easy average test and puts you at the outer edge of what you need for clip on target id distance

if you like i will do one with the luna elir-3 vs a full power peq-15

Thanks!
that would be greatly appreciated!

Vic I'd love to see peq vs the mawl as well