Another recoil management post

[Dot3]

This needs to be addressed in a class, I know. Unfortunately I’m not able to get to one anytime soon. These are a few screenshots from some video I took yesterday, which I haven’t figured out how to post. I’m still having issues with losing sight of the target. 100 yds

rifle is 30-06 right at 14lbs all in, no brake, in bell and Carlson long range hunter stock shooting 168 TMKs at 2920ish. Crosstec XXL squeeze bag. I have done what’s been said on here: raised the bipod some, move the rifle way inboard, pull tight to my shoulder. I believe I’m having trouble isolating my bicep from my shoulder when I tighten up to pull.

I can keep my sight picture only if I trap the rifle with the bipod straps on my mat. I don’t mean preload the bipod til it breaks, but just barely enough to keep it trapped. When I slide in front of the straps, the rifle doesn’t hop like it used to, but it slides to the left, off target (on high mag) haven’t tried low mag.

I included a target I shot this morning doing some seating depth experimenting. All shots taken with bipod in the straps of the mat. Far left group, rifle shifted slightly left, had to reposition slightly. Next 4, better focus, and the muzzle finished slightly raised (1moa). The shot out of the group was a different seating depth, seeing how forgiving my load was. Right 3 shots were .003” further from lands. Muzzle ended up slightly raised, similar to 2nd string. Interesting that velocity of the first three shots was 26fps slower avg than the following 7, which had SD of 6fps. Small sample I know.

Any diagnosis from these pictures and description? Any way to post videos without using You ube?

 

[Garvey]

You did the right thing, when your sight picture went left, move your pelvis right.

1 MOA vertical is not bad.

Here's the thing, .30-06 is just a fast recoiling sumbitch! Bet you're loaded with a whole lot of H-4350. The burn rate is quick enough that it donkey kicks you. I have a private 800 yard range. I have an 07 FFL. I am fortunate enough to have people hire me for their load development and make their ammo. As well as teach private one on one shooting lessons. I get to shoot all kinds of rifles, and all kinds of different cartridges. .30-06 is probably my least favorite thing to shoot. And that's why. The quick burn rate makes a quick recoil. I seriously would rather shoot a .300 Win Mag with a full house load of H-1000 or H-Retumbo, and a 200+ gr bullet. Those powders are a slower shove, and easier to manage recoil.

If you're sight picture movement is at 100 yards, you are doing well. The farther your shots are going to be, the easier it is going to be to witness impact. That is due to increased flight time.

And by the way, when I shoot a .30-06, as long as th stock is strong enough, I load the hell out of the bipod. I shove all the body weight I can get into it. When I'm getting DOPE for people, I'm alone. I have got to spot for myself. My zero line is decked, and covered. On the edge of the deck, I screwed down angle iron. I will put the bipod legs against the steel and load very hard while shooting a .30-06.

Based on your sight picture small movement, I think you are doing alright with your form, shooting a .30-06.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Agreed that 1 MOA vertical shift after recoil is great, I’d be happy with that and it would allow for impact spotting at longer ranges.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Keeping the sight picture at 100 yards shooting an 06 with the optic set at high magnification would be
very tough for most.

You look too tense, you may not be setting up properly, like how you load the bipod and pull the rifle into your shoulder.

 

[Dot3]

Thanks for the input. Yes, it’s a full case of actually IMR 4350. It thumps pretty good. I feel better about things knowing that no more shift than that is acceptable for most. And I agree, except for the fact that I can’t manage it that well unless the rifle is trapped. I get the point that loading it hard is the way to go, but I know that’s not always practical. Due to the fact that it still seems to be “sliding down the ramp” of my collar bone, I know I’ve still got some kinks to work out. To the point that I look too tense, I would agree. If I could post the videos it would allow you to see the whole system in motion. To me, it looks like I’m absorbing the recoil, but I don’t have any other video of myself to differentiate doing it right vs doing it wrong.

I’ve got a 260 coming which should be finished in a month or two. It will be heavy and have a brake, but I don’t want to give up the big gun so I don’t get lax. Will be interesting to shoot those two side by side

 

[Garvey]

Thanks for the input. Yes, it’s a full case of actually IMR 4350. It thumps pretty good. I feel better about things knowing that no more shift than that is acceptable for most. And I agree, except for the fact that I can’t manage it that well unless the rifle is trapped. I get the point that loading it hard is the way to go, but I know that’s not always practical. Due to the fact that it still seems to be “sliding down the ramp” of my collar bone, I know I’ve still got some kinks to work out. To the point that I look too tense, I would agree. If I could post the videos it would allow you to see the whole system in motion. To me, it looks like I’m absorbing the recoil, but I don’t have any other video of myself to differentiate doing it right vs doing it wrong.

I’ve got a 260 coming which should be finished in a month or two. It will be heavy and have a brake, but I don’t want to give up the big gun so I don’t get lax. Will be interesting to shoot those two side by side

If it's sliding down onto your collarbone, a notch higher on the bipod, and more rear bag is usually the answer. I'm sure you've been told that.

Also, you want your rear bag built up so that the weight of your head pushes it back down, and you should be on target. Trying a couple different rear bags might help.

 

[KnowNothing256]

If the “ramp” you’re describing on the collarbone is letting the butt slip down and outboard, consider bringing your rifle shoulder forward a bit to flatten out the ramp.

 

[Dot3]

If it's sliding down onto your collarbone, a notch higher on the bipod, and more rear bag is usually the answer. I'm sure you’ve been told that.

Other than reading it here, I haven’t been told anything. I’m going about this blind other than this as a resource. I’ll go up another notch and see. Should have plenty of rear bag to work with.
I assume it’s sliding down the ramp. Hard for me to tell not being very experienced. I’ve moved my shoulder as far forward as possible without rebuilding my whole position. Hard to describe what I mean. I guess I mean I’ve moved my elbow farther forward while my shoulder followed. Do I need to address the rifle differently to get my shoulder farther forward?

ETA: I’m pretty bony and weigh about a buck 55 so the butt is squarely on my collarbone. Would raising the bipod put it on more flesh? And is that what I’m trying to accomplish to eliminate the “ramp?”

 

[acudaowner]

the flying v pose and not even in a kilt that so sad .
well you had to have done something wrong people should fear taking a pic from behind you like that mostly cause they know what they will see lol

 

[Dot3]

I tried the kilt. It didn’t help. Plus the tan lines…uhhh

the flying v pose and not even in a kilt that so sad .

 

[Garvey]

Other than reading it here, I haven’t been told anything. I’m going about this blind other than this as a resource. I’ll go up another notch and see. Should have plenty of rear bag to work with.
I assume it’s sliding down the ramp. Hard for me to tell not being very experienced. I’ve moved my shoulder as far forward as possible without rebuilding my whole position. Hard to describe what I mean. I guess I mean I’ve moved my elbow farther forward while my shoulder followed. Do I need to address the rifle differently to get my shoulder farther forward?

ETA: I’m pretty bony and weigh about a buck 55 so the butt is squarely on my collarbone. Would raising the bipod put it on more flesh? And is that what I’m trying to accomplish to eliminate the “ramp?”

One thing I do on hard recoiling rifles I do not do on softer recoiling ones, is rolly shoulder forward. On softer recoiling rifles, my shoulder is neutral. On hard recoiling rifles, I will roll it forward, if that makes sense. So on hard recoiling rifles, my firing shoulder is working, and my non-firing hand is working, manipulating the rear bag. On soft recoiling rifles, only my non-firing hand is working.

And, it was mentioned you're pulling the rifle into your shoulder. That is a good thing on hard recoiling rifles. But, if we talk about the pinky, ring finger, and middle finger, they are working pulling the rifle to you. The index finger (trigger finger) is having to be relaxed and precise on trigger control and follow through. It can be tricky, but it can be done with practice.

Once your .260 Rem is in front of you, you probably won't have to pull the rifle to you. Just push your body to it.

I've got a Harris bipod, and I've got an Atlas bipod. For purely prone, I prefer the Harris. The Harris does not have the slop in it that the Atlas does prior to loading. But the Atlas can do lots of tricks when using it on barricades. So they both have their place.

 

[Dot3]

Recoil management is a whole other beast off barricades with this rifle. I can occasionally spot an impact once I’m past 600 yards or so but not a chance any closer. I’d love to try a match but I think that would be the end of this barrel. It’s got a lot of rounds down it.

 

[Garvey]

.30-06 is just hard to maintain sight picture. All there is to it.

I doubt you've shot it out. The larger the bore, the lower the powder charge, the longer th barrel life. If memory serves, Jacob Bynum put 10,000 rounds down a .308 Win barrel.

 

[Dot3]

.30-06 is just hard to maintain sight picture. All there is to it.

I doubt you've shot it out. The larger the bore, the lower the powder charge, the longer th barrel life. If memory serves, Jacob Bynum put 10,000 rounds down a .308 Win barrel.

Fair enough…time to start looking at the scheduling.

 

[dieselsmoke]

.30-06 is just hard to maintain sight picture. All there is to it.

I doubt you've shot it out. The larger the bore, the lower the powder charge, the longer th barrel life. If memory serves, Jacob Bynum put 10,000 rounds down a .308 Win barrel.

@Garvey, thanks for the information. As I am reading this, I am struggling with my 300 PRC with some of the exact same issues as Dot3. Some days I am on, and somehow amazing with it, and other days are pure suck. Last week from a cold bore I hit a steel target at 710 yards on the first shot prone, 100% centerpunched it, then missed the next 10 and gave up because the weeds were swallowing all my misses and literally could not find a way to correct it other than walking around with the crosshairs hoping to find a connection...ugh!

One dumb question I have for you, something I can't get my head wrapped around. At my local range, the PRS guys are all 6BR and 6mm_XYZ to eliminate/reduce the above problems with the high powered guns, yet the military has supplied their sharpshooters with stuff like 300WM, 338 LM, and 50 BMG, all of which are like (in my mind) diametrically opposed to everything the PRS guys do. So how are the sharpshooters being successful with the big guns....when it seems like it's all the "wrong way"? Do they just make the big guns so damn heavy they don't move?

I may not be expressing this in the best of terms but I'm having a hard time understanding two completely different approaches, to ostensibly the same result.

Help! Thanks man!

 

[Garvey]

@Garvey, thanks for the information. As I am reading this, I am struggling with my 300 PRC with some of the exact same issues as Dot3. Some days I am on, and somehow amazing with it, and other days are pure suck. Last week from a cold bore I hit a steel target at 710 yards on the first shot prone, 100% centerpunched it, then missed the next 10 and gave up because the weeds were swallowing all my misses and literally could not find a way to correct it other than walking around with the crosshairs hoping to find a connection...ugh!

One dumb question I have for you, something I can't get my head wrapped around. At my local range, the PRS guys are all 6BR and 6mm_XYZ to eliminate/reduce the above problems with the high powered guns, yet the military has supplied their sharpshooters with stuff like 300WM, 338 LM, and 50 BMG, all of which are like (in my mind) diametrically opposed to everything the PRS guys do. So how are the sharpshooters being successful with the big guns....when it seems like it's all the "wrong way"? Do they just make the big guns so damn heavy they don't move?

I may not be expressing this in the best of terms but I'm having a hard time understanding two completely different approaches, to ostensibly the same result.

Help! Thanks man!

The HOGS that you speak of are almost always two man teams. Shooter and spotter. When shooter does not see where his bullet landed, his spotter did. His spotter made a miss measurement in Mils, and then he calls out a correction immediately. I've literally done it thousands of times on my range. It might sound like "elevation good, come left point three Mils". The best thing the shooter can do is get that next shot off as quickly as possible, before the wind changes.

It is extremely variable on my range. Today it would just be a variation in wind speed. But holding right to left. In winter, the wind can come from behind us, making for a tail wind. Tail winds are almost never constant. They will vary from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock, there by changing the hold from a right to left wind to a left to right wind. On those days, I call out wind hold by the second, because I am reading mirage. It might sound like "hold right point three, right point three, now no hold (mirage is now a boil), now left point two" That's because the shooter was trying to get situated to make the shot. Mirage was showing me right to left, then a boil, then left to right.

When the military commits to a cartridge, they are typically committed for many years to come. Just because they are using it, doesn't mean it is the best. They're just stuck with it for a while. I've seen active duty Army Snipers show up and shoot a PRS match. They did well, but finished in the top 40%. They were shooting their .308's that year at a difficult match. You have to remember, they have to hit a full size silhouette. It is rare to have a target that big in PRS.

So the guys in PRS running 6mm and 6.5 mm, in rifles that are often over 15 pounds and wearing a brake. They have to be their own spotter. You get no help. So, you better have set up your rifle with low recoil, and have good form so you can watch where your bullets go. Your misses are your responsibility to see and properly correct for. R.O. on glass is either going to say "impact" or he is saying nothing at all.

 

[dieselsmoke]

The HOGS that you speak of are almost always two man teams. Shooter and spotter. When shooter does not see where his bullet landed, his spotter did. His spotter made a miss measurement in Mils, and then he calls out a correction immediately. I've literally done it thousands of times on my range. It might sound like "elevation good, come left point three Mils". The best thing the shooter can do is get that next shot off as quickly as possible, before the wind changes.

It is extremely variable on my range. Today it would just be a variation in wind speed. But holding right to left. In winter, the wind can come from behind us, making for a tail wind. Tail winds are almost never constant. They will vary from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock, there by changing the hold from a right to left wind to a left to right wind. On those days, I call out wind hold by the second, because I am reading mirage. It might sound like "hold right point three, right point three, now no hold (mirage is now a boil), now left point two" That's because the shooter was trying to get situated to make the shot. Mirage was showing me right to left, then a boil, then left to right.

When the military commits to a cartridge, they are typically committed for many years to come. Just because they are using it, doesn't mean it is the best. They're just stuck with it for a while. I've seen active duty Army Snipers show up and shoot a PRS match. They did well, but finished in the top 40%. They were shooting their .308's that year at a difficult match. You have to remember, they have to hit a full size silhouette. It is rare to have a target that big in PRS.

So the guys in PRS running 6mm and 6.5 mm, in rifles that are often over 15 pounds and wearing a brake. They have to be their own spotter. You get no help. So, you better have set up your rifle with low recoil, and have good form so you can watch where your bullets go. Your misses are your responsibility to see and properly correct for. R.O. on glass is either going to say "impact" or he is saying nothing at all.

@Garvey thanks very much.

So at the risk of sounding stupid, it sounds like some % of the military could be very successful with a PRS setup, as lone wolves, as long as the round could penetrate whatever the enemy was wearing.

I am curious as to what hit rate the military expects out of a team running say 338 LM or 300 NM. If I read between the lines, maybe it's not as good as the top end PRS guys?

One of the guys at my range let me shoot his MPA 6BR, and he shot my "fucking cannon" (LOL) and he said that "your gun will never do what mine will, and my gun will never do what yours will,"and I wonder how true that is. I loved his gun, but I'm not sure I want one super awful bad, just yet. It'll probably grow on me.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Sounds like a wise man to me, and gracious to boot.

 

[Garvey]

@Garvey thanks very much.

So at the risk of sounding stupid, it sounds like some % of the military could be very successful with a PRS setup, as lone wolves, as long as the round could penetrate whatever the enemy was wearing.

I am curious as to what hit rate the military expects out of a team running say 338 LM or 300 NM. If I read between the lines, maybe it's not as good as the top end PRS guys?

One of the guys at my range let me shoot his MPA 6BR, and he shot my "fucking cannon" (LOL) and he said that "your gun will never do what mine will, and my gun will never do what yours will,"and I wonder how true that is. I loved his gun, but I'm not sure I want one super awful bad, just yet. It'll probably grow on me.

Starting anyone out shooting precision I've said for years one of the best tools there is, is a tight shooting 1:7 or 1:8 twist .223 Rem or .223 A.I. I have an A.I. running 80 gr ELD-Ms, and it'll run my whole range. Almost no recoil, extremely tight shooting, and fun as hell. I recommend to anyone to get good at the soft recoiling rifles before stepping into anything affiliated with the word "magnum". .300 PRC is an improved .300 Win Mag. Basically learn to drive a Mustang well before you get into a top fuel dragster.

 

[orkan]

@Dot3 Give this playlist a view. I think it might help you out.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvp4jDu-8IVUIDMSRs9-JqtZpr9ymCZ31

 

[Dot3]

@Dot3 Give this playlist a view. I think it might help you out.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvp4jDu-8IVUIDMSRs9-JqtZpr9ymCZ31

That will keep me busy for a while. Thank you!