Rifle Scopes Another scope selection

[KALISPIMENTA]

Hey guys been looking for the last few months for a better scope for my tikka tac a1 and I'm down to these (other recommendations welcome). Didn't want to go over the $2000 but it looks like i can have better choices by speeding a bit more money. Is the extra 1k worth it whats your thoughts.
Thank you
Schmidt & Bender Police Marksman II 5-25x56mm $3k
Kahles K624i 6-24x56 - MOAK $3k
vortex razor hd gen 2 4.5-27x56 $2170
Steiner 5-25x56 M5Xi Military $3k

 

[stwcattle]

In my opinion I would spend the most you feel comfortable with on a quality scope. I would not compromise on quality glass and repeatable turrents. I think by spending the extra 1k now, you be money ahead later.

I don't know about the Steiner but other 3 choices look good. I would add NF ATACR to your list.

 

[patriot07]

They all seem to be good options in this price range. My vote would be for Razor Gen 2 because it seems to be just as good as the others but much cheaper.

The other obvious one to consider in this price range is the Minox ZP5.

What is your current scope?

 

[Tony1320]

I would drop the Steiner then pick your favorite reticle and what features matter to you and go with that

I was in your shoes not long ago narrowed it down to those 3 and went with the K624i with a SKMR3 reticle I like it a lot so far

My next one will probably be a Schmidt and Bender PMII 5-25 with a P4LF or H2CMR reticle

Definitely good call spending a bit more money now you can keep the scope forever just keep moving it if you decide to upgrade rifles

If you can try to go look through the scopes to get a feel for them how it looks and feels to you

 

[arm017]

Go Kahles.
You can find them for much cheaper used too. Or look into some of our vendors here on the hide who give a nice discount.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Gen II and use the extra cash for ammo/training/other parts.

Nothing wrong with springing the extra cash for any of those, but once you get into the 2k area.......diminishing returns on you money really picks up.

If you have the income, spring for the extra, if not, spend it elsewhere.

 

[longshot2000]

Again, so many opinions.

So, here is mine. Some common threads, some not. I agree on the reticle choices. Pick that. All good scopes listed, and agree to add NF. 50/50 for me on Minox. But, start with the reticle, and the fit and eyebox. Great if you can get a look inside, but I know that is hard.

You have listed MOA and MIL reticles, if I am not mistaken, so pick that first and then the actual reticle. I personally like the MSR, the T-3 and some very simple reticles, but you will find your first love and it will work for you. I go for tactical scopes and FFP for distance finding. More and more target shooters are sticking to MOA and SFP, so think and look and talk about the reticle and focal plane before the metal.

I am a scope junkie, and a dealer, so I am going to give you my take as both a shooter and a dealer.

1) Only consider the Vortex if you really like the reticle, and cost is a big factor. I have one. It is my least favorite quality high-mag scope. But, that is very subjective, as there are tons of fans here. Resale is a problem. Lots of people selling, and Vortex has the most generous mil discount in the business, and this means that used scope prices are depressed, and will remain so, if you are looking to sell.

2) S&B is never a bad choice. I have several. If you like the tall turret DT P4 model, there are storage units full of these at the major online retailers who are also sponsors here on the 'hide, and they are selling for $2,300 to $2,400. Personally, that is not my scope. I like the MTC lower turrets, so, yes, you are at $3k, maybe a little bit more, and unless you get lucky, you will wait 3 months to get the scope you want. Resale value is strong on the more expensive scopes, and sell fast.

3) Steiner M5Xi is a great scope. I totally disagree with several comments that said drop it off your list. This is a world-class scope, and sells more than S&B in Europe, and like S&B is a full military tactical scope. Great reticle options and superb warranty. I have a couple and they are awesome. There is a new MSR2 reticle coming in the summer, as well as the T-3 and other choices. Downside is that nobody has this in-stock, as they are very popular, and wait time from Germany is 3 or 4 months. Prices can be had a little lower than S&B, but close. Resale value is very strong.

4) Kahles 624i is a great scope. I love it in many ways. I prefer the SKMR reticle, and the fact that you can have, if you want, left hand windage is very attractive. Kahles makes a great scope. Not as rugged as S&B, NF and Steiner, but if you are not going to war, you are good. I would not buy it, because the 525 will be out in the summer or early fall, and will offer more options and a more modern design, like the 318. This means that resale value will fall, and I am already seeing that.

5) Nightforce. Hard not to look at both the 5-25x and the 7-35x. The 7-35x is nothing short of amazing, and will do most everything the 5-25x will and more, but it has a higher price point. I am selling a lot of SFP ATACR 5-25x, which, if that suits you, puts you in a street price comparable to the Vortex. Nightforce has always been good, but they have become great scopes in the last few years. I was never a fan of the Beast, but the ATACR rocks. Be it in their new 1-8x, or the mid-range 4-16, or long range. All first class, and a choice of MIL-C, MOAR, and T-3 reticles in many scopes. The 5-25x FFP will compare nicely against the Kahles, Steiner and S&B, and beat them all on price.

6) Minox. When it comes to image quality, the top of the line Minox is probably the best, bar none. The ZP5 with an MR4 reticle is in relatively high demand (high for Minox), and very short supply. If you are a target shooter, I would add this. Price is similar to S&B, Steiner and Kahles. If you want to take this into the field, as a more tactical or hunting scope, I would not choose it. I know someone will call me out on this, but this is not a scope you can throw down in the dirt. You can do that to NF, S&B and Steiner. Not so much Kahles or Minox. This is where I am 50/50, but I am a tactical shooter, so there is probably some bias. It does not make my short list for tactical scopes, but great to wipe clean, adore it, and use on the range. Resale value is good, but often takes a while to sell. The Minox market is small, and most consider Minox, and Hensoldt to be a niche market.

7) Hensoldt. Love the scopes. Too much money on the high-mag. I would definitely put their mid-mag scopes in play for anyone interested in the 3-15x, 4-16x, etc. market. Not for you today, but thought I would mention.


Cheers, and have fun.

 

[Tony1320]

Again, so many opinions.

So, here is mine. Some common threads, some not. I agree on the reticle choices. Pick that. All good scopes listed, and agree to add NF. 50/50 for me on Minox. But, start with the reticle, and the fit and eyebox. Great if you can get a look inside, but I know that is hard.

You have listed MOA and MIL reticles, if I am not mistaken, so pick that first and then the actual reticle. I personally like the MSR, the T-3 and some very simple reticles, but you will find your first love and it will work for you. I go for tactical scopes and FFP for distance finding. More and more target shooters are sticking to MOA and SFP, so think and look and talk about the reticle and focal plane before the metal.

I am a scope junkie, and a dealer, so I am going to give you my take as both a shooter and a dealer.

1) Only consider the Vortex if you really like the reticle, and cost is a big factor. I have one. It is my least favorite quality high-mag scope. But, that is very subjective, as there are tons of fans here. Resale is a problem. Lots of people selling, and Vortex has the most generous mil discount in the business, and this means that used scope prices are depressed, and will remain so, if you are looking to sell.

2) S&B is never a bad choice. I have several. If you like the tall turret DT P4 model, there are storage units full of these at the major online retailers who are also sponsors here on the 'hide, and they are selling for $2,300 to $2,400. Personally, that is not my scope. I like the MTC lower turrets, so, yes, you are at $3k, maybe a little bit more, and unless you get lucky, you will wait 3 months to get the scope you want. Resale value is strong on the more expensive scopes, and sell fast.

3) Steiner M5Xi is a great scope. I totally disagree with several comments that said drop it off your list. This is a world-class scope, and sells more than S&B in Europe, and like S&B is a full military tactical scope. Great reticle options and superb warranty. I have a couple and they are awesome. There is a new MSR2 reticle coming in the summer, as well as the T-3 and other choices. Downside is that nobody has this in-stock, as they are very popular, and wait time from Germany is 3 or 4 months. Prices can be had a little lower than S&B, but close. Resale value is very strong.

4) Kahles 624i is a great scope. I love it in many ways. I prefer the SKMR reticle, and the fact that you can have, if you want, left hand windage is very attractive. Kahles makes a great scope. Not as rugged as S&B, NF and Steiner, but if you are not going to war, you are good. I would not buy it, because the 525 will be out in the summer or early fall, and will offer more options and a more modern design, like the 318. This means that resale value will fall, and I am already seeing that.

5) Nightforce. Hard not to look at both the 5-25x and the 7-35x. The 7-35x is nothing short of amazing, and will do most everything the 5-25x will and more, but it has a higher price point. I am selling a lot of SFP ATACR 5-25x, which, if that suits you, puts you in a street price comparable to the Vortex. Nightforce has always been good, but they have become great scopes in the last few years. I was never a fan of the Beast, but the ATACR rocks. Be it in their new 1-8x, or the mid-range 4-16, or long range. All first class, and a choice of MIL-C, MOAR, and T-3 reticles in many scopes. The 5-25x FFP will compare nicely against the Kahles, Steiner and S&B, and beat them all on price.

6) Minox. When it comes to image quality, the top of the line Minox is probably the best, bar none. The ZP5 with an MR4 reticle is in relatively high demand (high for Minox), and very short supply. If you are a target shooter, I would add this. Price is similar to S&B, Steiner and Kahles. If you want to take this into the field, as a more tactical or hunting scope, I would not choose it. I know someone will call me out on this, but this is not a scope you can throw down in the dirt. You can do that to NF, S&B and Steiner. Not so much Kahles or Minox. This is where I am 50/50, but I am a tactical shooter, so there is probably some bias. It does make my short list for tactical scopes, but great to wipe clean, adore it, and use on the range. Resale value is good, but often takes a while to sell. The Minox market is small, and most consider Minox, and Hensoldt to be a niche market.

7) Hensoldt. Love the scopes. Too much money on the high-mag. I would definitely put their mid-mag scopes in play for anyone interested in the 3-15x, 4-16x, etc. market. Not for you today, but thought I would mention.


Cheers, and have fun.

Could you post the difference between the MTC and DT turrets with Locking turrets if possible..

 

[RyanM]

@longshot2000 that is one great summary,

For me NF is always out as I hate how the whole ocular housing is out. They are good scopes otherwise but it really bugs me (I know I am not alone).

@Tony1320 I am the opposite and much prefer the DT compared to the MTC/LT turrents. The DT is pretty much your basic turret. Once you go into the second rev a yellow indicators occurs. S&B Dt turrets have good audible & tacticle clicks.

The MTC (more tacticle clicks or something like that) has a much more pronounced click on every mil. For me I always ended up over dialing - maybe I could have got used to them but I like the regular turrets.

The LT is just that a locking turret. Good for windage IMO but I find it unnecessary overall. The S&B way of doing them is pretty good though.

If I could get DT/LT that would be nice.

 

[AFController]

Hey guys been looking for the last few months for a better scope for my tikka tac a1 and I'm down to these (other recommendations welcome). Didn't want to go over the $2000 but it looks like i can have better choices by speeding a bit more money. Is the extra 1k worth it whats your thoughts.
Thank you
Schmidt & Bender Police Marksman II 5-25x56mm $3k
Kahles K624i 6-24x56 - MOAK $3k
vortex razor hd gen 2 4.5-27x56 $2170
Steiner 5-25x56 M5Xi Military $3k

The Schmidt Bender is on Scopelist.com for $2395. I think that is a smoking deal for the Cadillac of scopes. I just ordered a T5xi for $1528. I just couldn't pass that up.

 

[Tony1320]

@longshot2000 that is one great summary,

For me NF is always out as I hate how the whole ocular housing is out. They are good scopes otherwise but it really bugs me (I know I am not alone).

@Tony1320 I am the opposite and much prefer the DT compared to the MTC/LT turrents. The DT is pretty much your basic turret. Once you go into the second rev a yellow indicators occurs. S&B Dt turrets have good audible & tacticle clicks.

The MTC (more tacticle clicks or something like that) has a much more pronounced click on every mil. For me I always ended up over dialing - maybe I could have got used to them but I like the regular turrets.

The LT is just that a locking turret. Good for windage IMO but I find it unnecessary overall. The S&B way of doing them is pretty good though.

If I could get DT/LT that would be nice.

I meant the difference between the appearance of the DT vs MTC from what I read above they are different and the MTC are lower profile?

Is the DT not available with LT?

Schmidt and Bender has too many options... gets confusing but definitely interested in trying one next

 

[patriot07]

Schmidt and Bender has too many options... gets confusing but definitely interested in trying one next

Agreed, what a mess for new potential customers. I'd avoid them just for that, personally. Too many other good options that don't require being a cryptologist or tons of research to figure out. How would you even know what options to pick if there isn't a store around to try them and see?

 

[CSTactical]

Hey guys been looking for the last few months for a better scope for my tikka tac a1 and I'm down to these (other recommendations welcome). Didn't want to go over the $2000 but it looks like i can have better choices by speeding a bit more money. Is the extra 1k worth it whats your thoughts.
Thank you
Schmidt & Bender Police Marksman II 5-25x56mm $3k
Kahles K624i 6-24x56 - MOAK $3k
vortex razor hd gen 2 4.5-27x56 $2170
Steiner 5-25x56 M5Xi Military $3k

Those are some great choices above that all have their pros and cons, I'd also add the Minox ZP5 and Vortex AMG to that list as well, feel free to call us at 916-670-1103 and we'd be happy to help you choose the right scope for your needs.

 

[5RWill]

Go Kahles.
You can find them for much cheaper used too. Or look into some of our vendors here on the hide who give a nice discount.

Was going to say there is a NIB K624i for $2550 in the px.

That said if you don't feel like spending $3000 you can have quality glass at 2000-2500, I.E. Mark 5 HD and Vortex AMG.

 

[5RWill]

Again, so many opinions.

So, here is mine. Some common threads, some not. I agree on the reticle choices. Pick that. All good scopes listed, and agree to add NF. 50/50 for me on Minox. But, start with the reticle, and the fit and eyebox. Great if you can get a look inside, but I know that is hard.

6) Minox. When it comes to image quality, the top of the line Minox is probably the best, bar none. The ZP5 with an MR4 reticle is in relatively high demand (high for Minox), and very short supply. If you are a target shooter, I would add this. Price is similar to S&B, Steiner and Kahles. If you want to take this into the field, as a more tactical or hunting scope, I would not choose it. I know someone will call me out on this, but this is not a scope you can throw down in the dirt. You can do that to NF, S&B and Steiner. Not so much Kahles or Minox. This is where I am 50/50, but I am a tactical shooter, so there is probably some bias. It does make my short list for tactical scopes, but great to wipe clean, adore it, and use on the range. Resale value is good, but often takes a while to sell. The Minox market is small, and most consider Minox, and Hensoldt to be a niche market.

.

While i can't comment on Minox and have no doubt that you've seen Kahles go down...can't throw them in the dirt seems to be an over exaggeration no? I would argue it's one of the most popular scope brands in the PRS/NRL circuit second to only Vortex. The difference being that i don't hear that much about Kahles failing. I've seen some failed tracking test. Hell mine that i just got might not track, could be way off. Just going on the numbers though one would believe they're plenty durable maybe outside a war zone. Vortex while hugely popular i have seen first hand a couple go down, though i think they're the exception to the rule as again we're talking about a small percentage of scopes. I've seen accounts of almost every brand having issues in some form or another, none are perfect. I agree with most of your assessment just curious about calling Kahles and Minox out on their toughness or ruggedness for hunting. Would be a bit off putting to spend 3K on an optic that you can't even hunt with.

 

[longshot2000]

.can't throw them in the dirt seems to be an over exaggeration no? I would argue it's one of the most popular scope brands in the PRS/NRL circuit second to only Vortex. The difference being that i don't hear that much about Kahles failing....

. I agree with most of your assessment just curious about calling Kahles and Minox out on their toughness or ruggedness for hunting. Would be a bit off putting to spend 3K on an optic that you can't even hunt with.

I think that is my point. I like Kahles and Minox, and for PRS, they are great. This is just a personal observation, but the turrets seem fragile to me. Not in the sense that they will break on normal use, but would you throw one down the driveway on concrete and pick it up and use it? Probably not. I have not tried. But I have seen the torture tests that S&B, Steiner and NF go through. I am sure they are fine for some hunting. Maybe not the type that takes you into the brush and out and scraping on trees, etc. Maybe so. I don't hunt, so I am putting some hyperbole in there.

My point was Kahles - good scope, on the verge or a great scope. In, except for economics, which take it out of my recommendation. I will recommend the 318 all day long, but not the 624. I just see too much of an earthquake coming with the 525. The only thing that has saved the 624 so far is the left hand windage, otherwise, the AMR reticle would have sunk it a few years back. It is like the Karman Ghia of VW's, or the Saab 900, with the key you insert in the floorboard. One guys opinion. People eat mint chocolate chip ice cream, but I don't like it.

With Minox - great glass, but scope seems fragile to me. 50/50. I have gotten behind the glass, but I have never thrown it. I have asked, but the owners never let me. I had two owners of the aforementioned scope brands let me throw as far as I could. Now, that is not saying much. A guy in his mid-50s, and a few shoulder injuries, but I threw a NF and a Steiner and picked them up, dusted them off and used them without issues. The glass is like looking through the Hubble Telescope (okay, never done that either). I think it needs a new owner to build and sell a platform. Minox is, as I mentioned, a niche market. I think it and Hensoldt have the ingredients to be magnificent, but lack a leader or a designer.

 

[longshot2000]

@longshot2000 that is one great summary,

For me NF is always out as I hate how the whole ocular housing is out. They are good scopes otherwise but it really bugs me (I know I am not alone).

.

Thanks. So, you do not like the rubbery notched grip to turn the ocular. Is that what I am hearing? I can understand that. Not because I agree, but probably because that is one of the things I really like about NF, so if I really like a non-critical design feature, I can understand that another would not.

 

[5RWill]

I think that is my point. I like Kahles and Minox, and for PRS, they are great. This is just a personal observation, but the turrets seem fragile to me. Not in the sense that they will break on normal use, but would you throw one down the driveway on concrete and pick it up and use it? Probably not. I have not tried. But I have seen the torture tests that S&B, Steiner and NF go through. I am sure they are fine for some hunting. Maybe not the type that takes you into the brush and out and scraping on trees, etc. Maybe so. I don't hunt, so I am putting some hyperbole in there.

My point was Kahles - good scope, on the verge or a great scope. In, except for economics, which take it out of my recommendation. I will recommend the 318 all day long, but not the 624. I just see too much of an earthquake coming with the 525. The only thing that has saved the 624 so far is the left hand windage, otherwise, the AMR reticle would have sunk it a few years back. It is like the Karman Ghia of VW's, or the Saab 900, with the key you insert in the floorboard. One guys opinion. People eat mint chocolate chip ice cream, but I don't like it.

I would argue that most scopes see more use and abuse through PRS than your average hunter, excluding guys that pack out to the mountains. I'm not sure about the turrets, i've felt NF, Kahles, Leupold, USO, and Vortex. Kahles exudes quality, hell they're the best turrets i've ever felt. Would it spin and knock off finish? Yeah absolutely but i doubt it would break to the point of mechanical failure, they're not that fragile. They're tested to be shock proof as well, so they should handle that. I agree about the K624i soon losing it's resale value with the k525i on the forefront.

 

[CSTactical]

I have seen every scope go down/fail, all scopes have a fail rate and Minox and Kahles have a very low fail rate. S&B scope are great scopes and I’ve personally seen 3 S&B go down at 1 match, 1 was mine. Kahles have been and are used by a good # off Military units, the PRS/NRL shooters are very hard on their gear and both MINOX and Kahles are doing great. Four of six CSTACTICAL shooting team members are using the Minox ZP5 5-25x with the MR4 and love it and the others two are using Nightforce. Our local SWAT guys tried out various mid powered scopes and chose the Minox ZP5 3-15x50 which they have been using successfully about two years.

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[W54/XM-388]

I meant the difference between the appearance of the DT vs MTC from what I read above they are different and the MTC are lower profile?
Is the DT not available with LT?
Schmidt and Bender has too many options... gets confusing but definitely interested in trying one next

I personally prefer the standard high profile elevation knob as it's easier to grab a hold of without looking & spin it where you want quickly.

The MTC is kind of a two edged thing. It's great for quickly spinning up to a spot way up or down in a hurry. It's a pain if you are trying to go from 9 to 11 as you'll go 9 to 13 or so then back to 11 unless you are really careful.

If you want the most scope for the money in the S&B world, the standard 5-25x56 in mil/mil (or MOA/MOA), with the standard Dual Turn elevation knob, CW rotation and P4LF reticle can be found pretty much all the time in the $2600 or less for new and $2300 or less for used with a bit of looking around.

There are several examples of both in the for sale section ranging from $2550 brand new to cheaper ones used.

If you don't mind a cosmetically scuffed up / well used one, I'd bet you could find one for $2k that works well, just has scratches / scuffs / dings.

 

[KALISPIMENTA]

Thank you so much for the informative posts, my goal is to have a ffp scope in moa my current scope is a viper vhs 4305, with that said i think i'm going to aim for the S&B and see what price i can get for the ffp in moa. Also what mount should i get to mount on the tikka tac a1?
Thank you

 

[Tony1320]

For rings I usually use Nightforce another good option would be Spuhr mount if you are able to get the correct eye relief with it

 

[Mute]

Could you post the difference between the MTC and DT turrets with Locking turrets if possible..

The DT turrets are like this:

The MTC knobs depends on whether you have a standard PMII, which are like these and similar to the DT knobs in profile:

or if you have the ones that are on the Ultra Short scopes. Here's a comparison. The one on the right is an Ultra Short.

 

[m1match]

I have the S&B 5-25 H2CMR with DT turrets and its a great scope. I have S&Bs with both the DT and the MTC turrets and I prefer the DT but I can use the MTC turrets just fine. I also have the Kahles 624i SKMR3 and it also is a great scope. I'd have to say the S&B has marginally better glass, but I like the SKMR3 reticle a bit better for PRS matches. The S&B DT turrets and the Kahles turrets are both excellent. The S&B MTC turrets are also excellent but sometimes I will when adjusting just past the more tactile click, I'll overrun by a click or two and have to go back.

If I were you I'd also consider the Vortex AMG 6-24. I have one of them also and the EBR-7B reticle is a great reticle for PRS style matches, it has excellent glass, and the turrets are excellent, as well as being lighter than the other scopes mentioned here, AND, EXCEPT FOR THE RETICLE, ITS MADE IN THE USA!. The resolution of my AMG is about equal, to my eyes, as the S&B or the Kahles, but colors are more muted and don't have the "pop" of the S&B or the Kahles, I'd attribute this to the lens coatings in the respective scopes. Check out the Hide dealers for AMGs, you can get them for less than $2,400.

I have to ask why consider a MOA scope? For PRS style matches most of us are using mil/mil FFP scopes and here at least, MOA scopes on the PX take longer to sell and sell for much less than mil scopes.

 

[steve123]

For rings I usually use Nightforce another good option would be Spuhr mount if you are able to get the correct eye relief with it

Or ARC, which have amazing grip force and don't damage the scope tube at the same time. I still think they are the best rings made. I can't say anything about Spuhr because I haven't tried them but the NF rings on my 375CT slipped, so I tightened them more and the NF 5.5-22 still slipped, I tightened even more tighter which put impressions on the tube. I sold them.

 

[KALISPIMENTA]

I have the S&B 5-25 H2CMR with DT turrets and its a great scope. I have S&Bs with both the DT and the MTC turrets and I prefer the DT but I can use the MTC turrets just fine. I also have the Kahles 624i SKMR3 and it also is a great scope. I'd have to say the S&B has marginally better glass, but I like the SKMR3 reticle a bit better for PRS matches. The S&B DT turrets and the Kahles turrets are both excellent. The S&B MTC turrets are also excellent but sometimes I will when adjusting just past the more tactile click, I'll overrun by a click or two and have to go back.

If I were you I'd also consider the Vortex AMG 6-24. I have one of them also and the EBR-7B reticle is a great reticle for PRS style matches, it has excellent glass, and the turrets are excellent, as well as being lighter than the other scopes mentioned here, AND, EXCEPT FOR THE RETICLE, ITS MADE IN THE USA!. The resolution of my AMG is about equal, to my eyes, as the S&B or the Kahles, but colors are more muted and don't have the "pop" of the S&B or the Kahles, I'd attribute this to the lens coatings in the respective scopes. Check out the Hide dealers for AMGs, you can get them for less than $2,400.

I have to ask why consider a MOA scope? For PRS style matches most of us are using mil/mil FFP scopes and here at least, MOA scopes on the PX take longer to sell and sell for much less than mil scopes.

I have learned to shoot moa and haven’t even attempted to learn. mil/mil maybe that should come along with the new scope.... I’ll research it thank you

 

[.338master]

I would suggest you to take a closer look on the M5Xi. It's in my opinion the best option. Also most of the European Tier 1 units went away from S&B and Kahles and have now Steiner in service. (e.g. German KSK, German Army, France SF, Poland SF...) The product is really one of the best. The only downside is, it is hard to find stock.