Any Advise on Lee Enfield Rifles?

[Secret SQL]

I have a Lee Enfield No.4 Mk II that I inherited. The stock was split and worn (rifle manufactured in 1947 I think) and I had to replace it. I chose to use a modern glass poly stock (I know, purists please forgive me) which works well enough, but I am getting a lot of sideways push (to the right). Is there a correlation with the full length wooden stock and barrel whip?

Best I can tell this rifle was built in England In 1947 and was a sniper version, although it did not have the original mount or scope. The left hand side of the action/breach is tapped with 3 holes and the serial seems to support the original sniper diagnosis. I'm making this rifle into a antiques/modern sporter and would appreciate your comments and insights. If you're going to tell me what a fool I am for modifying/modernizing this rifle, you can keep those vomments to yourself.

Pics to follow soon.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

When you say push, do you mean impact to right of point of aim, or the action and barrel do not fit cleanly in the stock?

WRT accuracy - No4's lack the big nose cap of the no1's, but there is some amount of stock/barrel interaction that could affect accuracy. L42 heavy barrels were free floated. With a replacement stock, you can either full bed, or bed just the action and free float the whole barrel - some guys using no4s for target work go with free float. LeeEnfieldResource has lots of good info on bedding SMLEs.

If you're already going to sporterize it, I'd look into a scope mount that allowed a modern optic choice. Going original or repro is going to be more expensive, both in cost and optical clarity. Stay away from any mount that advertises "no gunsmithing." Interested in pictures - As far as I remember, they didn't make any mk2 T's, as T production ended with WWII, with the L42 to follow in 1970. Someone with Pegler's book could verify.

 

[Ledzep]

I'm sure others are more versed than myself, but I also have never heard of a No.4 mk2 being fitted with a No.32. The No.32 scope mount has 3 holes on the front mount (right behind the front ring) and 2 more back by the rear sight. It's a 2 pad mount. Additionally, the rear sight would only have the micrometer, with the big loop battle sight milled off. I suspect it was just drilled and tapped for a commercial side mount at some point, but photos will clarify that.

 

[S12A]

Photos needed for sure.

No4 of any variety is an Enfield not a Lee Enfield.

The original stock setup will have an amount of pressure upwards at the forend tip on the barrel. Not to say the rifles can’t be free floated but a cheap plastic stock won’t do that properly.

Just guessing, but the date you have provided sounds likes it’s more likely a No4Mk1/2 or Mk1/3 rifle than a No4Mk2.

The scope mount setup for a No4Mk1T is a little more than a few tapped holes in the side . It involves mounting pad being attached, soldered permanently ie: not easily removed (image attached not mine).

What about the serial number makes you think it’s a genuine “sniper”. They weren’t selected by serial.

Anyway, photos please!

 

[Son of Dorn]

No4 of any variety is an Enfield not a Lee Enfield.

A No. 4 is definitely a Lee-Enfield and not just an "Enfield" (which applies either to the P1853 rifled musket or the P1914 rifle). It uses the same Lee-designed bolt-action mechanism that originated in the 1895 Magazine Lee-Enfield, admittedly in an improved form, and the rest of the rifle designed (and trialed/produced) by RSAF Enfield. Never seen it referred to as just an "Enfield".

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Definitely need pictures. And you are definitely in the right place for help.

Just one thing I'd point out.... adopting a squirrel handle on SH is sort of playing with fire. There's a whole department of sqwerl-affairs here and they take 'stolen squirrel valor' kind of seriously. Kind of like not wearing someone's biker rocker or showing up in prison with a shamrock tattoo. An honest mistake, no doubt. Just letting you know.

In case you might think about a new handle, I am certain that Ocelots, stoats, wombats, platypusses, kapibara's, foxbats, naked-mole-rats, Tawny Kitaen, kangaroo rats, 'possums and ferrets are, so far, all fair game. So to speak.

Anyhoo... Welcome to Vintage. It's a great spot on SH and I am sure your questions will be answered! Amazing group here!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Danger Mouse]

For mounts, you can get new old stock for the no4, which you could consider seeing as it already has the holes for mounting pads.

Or, you can drill and tap for a new mount.

Or you can use a no drill and tap mount such as from fulton of bisley. You need to remove rear ladder sight for this option.

If you want to preserve its value, dont drill more holes in it.

Bedding the no4 is tricky, there is books available on methods or you can look at milsurp forums.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Definitely need pictures. And you are definitely in the right place for help.

Just one thing I'd point out.... adopting a squirrel handle on SH is sort of playing with fire. There's a whole department of sqwerl-affairs here and they take 'stolen squirrel valor' kind of seriously. Kind of like not wearing someone's biker rocker or showing up in prison with a shamrock tattoo. An honest mistake, no doubt. Just letting you know.

In case you might think about a new handle, I am certain that Ocelots, stoats, wombats, platypusses, kapibara's, foxbats, naked-mole-rats, Tawny Kitaen, kangaroo rats, 'possums and ferrets are, so far, all fair game. So to speak.

Anyhoo... Welcome to Vintage. It's a great spot on SH and I am sure your questions will be answered! Amazing group here!

Cheers,

Sirhr

I vote we rename Vintage-frequenters as "Wombats".

 

[sirhrmechanic]

BTW, there are some excellent books. Skennerton is sort of the bible of the SMLE's.

But for the later rifles:

Neither is 'cheap' running about 50 for the above and about $100 for Skennerton. But they are PhD educations on the SMLE variants.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I vote we rename Vintage-frequenters as "Wombats".

I am kind of partial to Quokka...

But hey, I think that the short-tailed scrub-Wallaby contingent has already taken over the reloading depot...

Sirhr

 

[Steel head]

 

[S12A]

A No. 4 is definitely a Lee-Enfield and not just an "Enfield" (which applies either to the P1853 rifled musket or the P1914 rifle). It uses the same Lee-designed bolt-action mechanism that originated in the 1895 Magazine Lee-Enfield, admittedly in an improved form, and the rest of the rifle designed (and trialed/produced) by RSAF Enfield. Never seen it referred to as just an "Enfield".

Appreciate the correction, thanks!

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I love the Enfields.
So much history, and the workhorse of Commonwealth Armed Forces.
I learned how to shoot with my grandfather's cadet conversion, first pig gun was a .303 jungle version.
Much love

 

[Son of Dorn]

Appreciate the correction, thanks!

No problem. Before that there was the Lee-Metford, black powder rifle with similar looks and the Lee action but the barrel/rifling was designed by William Metford. They got replaced by the earliest Lee-Enfields after only a few years but the first couple L-E designs looked nearly identical.

There was also a nifty American version called the Remington-Lee. Lee's action, Remington's design and production, it was in .45-70 and looked like a fatter, shorter Lee-Metford. Had the chance to buy one once but it got sold before I could make sure I'd be able to replace a few missing parts.

And there was the civilian Lee-Speed that combined the Lee action and civvie sporting rifle good looks, popular among the well-to-do Army officers, explorers, and hunters in turn-of-the-century Africa. Those are pretty hard to find now but boy are they handsome guns. A vintage-sporterized Lee-Enfield is pretty but a genuine Lee-Speed is a true beauty.

 

[Daddyusmaximus]

There is a shit ton of things that can be done to a Lee Enfield. Most people do tend to want to restore them. At least that's the way it seems based on the amount of "bubba", and "you destroyed a piece of history" comments I get whenever I'm showing off mine. (that I think is cool) There are those that can appreciate something different, and the fact that these things were made in the millions, so not every single one needs to represent as a historical museum piece. They make good sporters, hunting guns, ect. They used to make great fun plinking guns back when ammo wasn't so pricey. I think mine could actually serve as a viable combat rifle the way it sits now. Do whatever you want to it.

When I did my Longbranch, (I happened to like the original No4 Mk1 lines) I wanted to modernize it with a red dot. I was also thinking about the guys who make the "tanker" Garands, and the more modern M1A Scout Squad, so I just shortened it to a 16.25" barrel, then shortened the stock to match. Changing the buttstock, adding the Warcomp, and red dot were the modern adaptations.

Use your imagination, but as has been stated... let's see the photos.

Here's mine.

 

[Son of Dorn]

There is a shit ton of things that can be done to a Lee Enfield. Most people do tend to want to restore them. At least that's the way it seems based on the amount of "bubba", and "you destroyed a piece of history" comments I get whenever I'm showing off mine. (that I think is cool) There are those that can appreciate something different, and the fact that these things were made in the millions, so not every single one needs to represent as a historical museum piece. They make good sporters, hunting guns, ect. They used to make great fun plinking guns back when ammo wasn't so pricey. Do whatever you want to it.

When I did my Longbranch, (I happened to like the original No4 Mk1 lines) I wanted to modernize it with a red dot. I was thinking about the guys who make the "tanker" Garands, and the more modern M1A Scout Squad, so I just shortened it to a 16.25" barrel, then shortened the stock to match. Changing the buttstock, adding the Warcomp, and red dot were the modern adaptations.

Use your imagination, but as has been stated... let's see the photos.

Here's mine.

View attachment 7621883

The Warcomp doesn't actually look half bad on that. Not too far off from the look of the original barrel.

I've got a sporterized No. 4 Mk 1 that someone just did a barrel mod and trimmed the stock down on. Not anything special but not as bad as it could be. Been thinking I might rework it into a semi-lookalike of the L42A1 but keep it in .303 instead of dealing with the .308 conversion. Still want to get a nicely sporterized No 1 Mk III, though, if I can't find a genuine Lee-Speed.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Look up what SOE did with the DeLisles... another neat bit of adapting!

Sirhr

 

[Son of Dorn]

Look up what SOE did with the DeLisles... another neat bit of adapting!

Sirhr

Wonder how a DeLisle-ish setup in .303 would handle, even if the suppressor wasn't functional. Probably kick pretty hard.

There's someone makes clones, both SBR and longer ones with and without functional suppressors. Valkyrie Arms or some such name. Forgotten Weapons or another one of those YouTube channels might've done a video using their suppressed SBR clone, I think.

 

[Secret SQL]

I'm sure others are more versed than myself, but I also have never heard of a No.4 mk2 being fitted with a No.32. The No.32 scope mount has 3 holes on the front mount (right behind the front ring) and 2 more back by the rear sight. It's a 2 pad mount. Additionally, the rear sight would only have the micrometer, with the big loop battle sight milled off. I suspect it was just drilled and tapped for a commercial side mount at some point, but photos will clarify that.

That may be the case on this rifle, I'm not sure about the history on this rifle.

 

[Secret SQL]

There is a shit ton of things that can be done to a Lee Enfield. Most people do tend to want to restore them. At least that's the way it seems based on the amount of "bubba", and "you destroyed a piece of history" comments I get whenever I'm showing off mine. (that I think is cool) There are those that can appreciate something different, and the fact that these things were made in the millions, so not every single one needs to represent as a historical museum piece. They make good sporters, hunting guns, ect. They used to make great fun plinking guns back when ammo wasn't so pricey. I think mine could actually serve as a viable combat rifle the way it sits now. Do whatever you want to it.

When I did my Longbranch, (I happened to like the original No4 Mk1 lines) I wanted to modernize it with a red dot. I was also thinking about the guys who make the "tanker" Garands, and the more modern M1A Scout Squad, so I just shortened it to a 16.25" barrel, then shortened the stock to match. Changing the buttstock, adding the Warcomp, and red dot were the modern adaptations.

Use your imagination, but as has been stated... let's see the photos.

Here's mine.

View attachment 7621883

Beautiful!!!

 

[Secret SQL]

When you say push, do you mean impact to right of point of aim, or the action and barrel do not fit cleanly in the stock?

WRT accuracy - No4's lack the big nose cap of the no1's, but there is some amount of stock/barrel interaction that could affect accuracy. L42 heavy barrels were free floated. With a replacement stock, you can either full bed, or bed just the action and free float the whole barrel - some guys using no4s for target work go with free float. LeeEnfieldResource has lots of good info on bedding SMLEs.

If you're already going to sporterize it, I'd look into a scope mount that allowed a modern optic choice. Going original or repro is going to be more expensive, both in cost and optical clarity. Stay away from any mount that advertises "no gunsmithing." Interested in pictures - As far as I remember, they didn't make any mk2 T's, as T production ended with WWII, with the L42 to follow in 1970. Someone with Pegler's book could verify.

By push, I mean the during the recoil phase. The rifle does not push straight backwards. Always has a recoil push to the right. I'm on target and it seems to be an accurate machine, but pushes the barrel to the right.

 

[Secret SQL]

I'm sure others are more versed than myself, but I also have never heard of a No.4 mk2 being fitted with a No.32. The No.32 scope mount has 3 holes on the front mount (right behind the front ring) and 2 more back by the rear sight. It's a 2 pad mount. Additionally, the rear sight would only have the micrometer, with the big loop battle sight milled off. I suspect it was just drilled and tapped for a commercial side mount at some point, but photos will clarify that.

"Additionally, the rear sight would only have the micrometer, with the big loop battle sight milled off."

Yep, that checks.

I quess someone could have modified it into a sniper variant after the fact. I just don't have the experience with the L.E. stuff to know any details.

 

[Secret SQL]

Photos needed for sure.

No4 of any variety is an Enfield not a Lee Enfield.

The original stock setup will have an amount of pressure upwards at the forend tip on the barrel. Not to say the rifles can’t be free floated but a cheap plastic stock won’t do that properly.

Just guessing, but the date you have provided sounds likes it’s more likely a No4Mk1/2 or Mk1/3 rifle than a No4Mk2.

The scope mount setup for a No4Mk1T is a little more than a few tapped holes in the side . It involves mounting pad being attached, soldered permanently ie: not easily removed (image attached not mine).

What about the serial number makes you think it’s a genuine “sniper”. They weren’t selected by serial.

Anyway, photos please!

I'm not thrilled with the stock I have used. Will more than likely be replacing it soon.

It is clearly marked as a No.4 MkII though.

No, I'm not sure it was a sniper variant. Some of the limited research I've found points to that, but.....

Remember what Abraham Lincoln said....

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

 

[Secret SQL]

Definitely need pictures. And you are definitely in the right place for help.

Just one thing I'd point out.... adopting a squirrel handle on SH is sort of playing with fire. There's a whole department of sqwerl-affairs here and they take 'stolen squirrel valor' kind of seriously. Kind of like not wearing someone's biker rocker or showing up in prison with a shamrock tattoo. An honest mistake, no doubt. Just letting you know.

In case you might think about a new handle, I am certain that Ocelots, stoats, wombats, platypusses, kapibara's, foxbats, naked-mole-rats, Tawny Kitaen, kangaroo rats, 'possums and ferrets are, so far, all fair game. So to speak.

Anyhoo... Welcome to Vintage. It's a great spot on SH and I am sure your questions will be answered! Amazing group here!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Thanks for the heads up.

I don't steal valor. They earned theirs, I earned mine. How, where, when, and what are mine alone. I greatly respect all that came before, during, and after and honor their sacrifices. From my perspective, I don't discuss things, don't qualify things, and don't demand things. I live in the now.

But I've been called that by certain folks for years and think I'll keep it. But your heads up is appreciated.

 

[Secret SQL]

Thanks for the heads up.

I don't steal valor. They earned theirs, I earned mine. How, where, when, and what are mine alone. I greatly respect all that came before, during, and after and honor their sacrifices.

But I've been called that by certain folks for years and think I'll keep it. But your heads up is appreciated.
>>>

 

[Secret SQL]

BTW, there are some excellent books. Skennerton is sort of the bible of the SMLE's.

But for the later rifles:

View attachment 7621734

Neither is 'cheap' running about 50 for the above and about $100 for Skennerton. But they are PhD educations on the SMLE variants.

Cheers,

Sirhr

I'll look that up for sure, thanks.

 

[Secret SQL]

View attachment 7621740

ROFLMAO

 

[Lange Carabine]

I'm not thrilled with the stock I have used. Will more than likely be replacing it soon.

It is clearly marked as a No.4 MkII though.

No, I'm not sure it was a sniper variant. Some of the limited research I've found points to that, but.....

Remember what Abraham Lincoln said....

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet."

I can assure you that there were never any Mk.2's converted to sniper configuration, not even on a trials basis.
India rebuilt and converted a couple hundred Mk.1's to Mk.1/2 configuration in the 60's and incidentally they are the only No.4 T's that can be positively identified by serial number alone if that's all you had to go on.

Only photo I have on hand right now but the top one is an Ishapore Mk.1/2 conversion.

 

[Lange Carabine]

The No.32 scope mount has 3 holes on the front mount (right behind the front ring) and 2 more back by the rear sight.

With the pad removed, there would be 3 holes in the rear location too. Two for the pad screws and a 3rd larger one in between for the bracket thumb screw.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

By push, I mean the during the recoil phase. The rifle does not push straight backwards. Always has a recoil push to the right. I'm on target and it seems to be an accurate machine, but pushes the barrel to the right.

Assuming it isn't some cheap plastic stock, and everything is more or less aligned down the long axis - Sounds more like a shooter recoil management problem than a mechanical problem. Have you had a trustworthy second shooter have a crack?

IIRC, The accuracy standard during production was something like 4 out of 5 shots into a 1"x1,5" rectangle at 100 feet. Mine usually does about 3-3,5" at 100 yards with german surplus and a(n add on) PH rear sight. If you're getting anything about there, it's shooting about as accurate as expected.

 

[Secret SQL]

With the pad removed, there would be 3 holes in the rear location too. Two for the pad screws and a 3rd larger one in between for the bracket thumb screw.

OK. Based on the photos you all are providing. I'm thinking this unit was modified at some point after the factory and whatever mount was added has disappeared over time. My three holes (insert sic comment here) are in a different location and have different spacing.

 

[Secret SQL]

Assuming it isn't some cheap plastic stock, and everything is more or less aligned down the long axis - Sounds more like a shooter recoil management problem than a mechanical problem. Have you had a trustworthy second shooter have a crack?

IIRC, The accuracy standard during production was something like 4 out of 5 shots into a 1"x1,5" rectangle at 100 feet. Mine usually does about 3-3,5" at 100 yards with german surplus and a(n add on) PH rear sight. If you're getting anything about there, it's shooting about as accurate as expected.

I'm not experiencng this issue with any other rifles. Don't think it's me. But I have been wrong before. I'm hitting the target some where between your numbers and the production values you stated.

 

[deltawiskey]

Look up what SOE did with the DeLisles... another neat bit of adapting!

Sirhr

Special Interest Arms did a cool interpretation of the DeLisles, I think he is out of business now though...

 

[Secret SQL]

Special Interest Arms did a cool interpretation of the DeLisles, I think he is out of business now though...
View attachment 7622055

Wow, that's crazy!

9mm suppressed?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Take a look in welding and metalworking for guns thread.

 

[deltawiskey]

Wow, that's crazy!

9mm suppressed?

Suppressed 45 acp, it takes 1911 magazines.
DW

 

[Ravenworks]

I don't steal valor.

But you are and you did

 

[Secret SQL]

But you are and you did

And you make this judgment how?

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

 

[sirhrmechanic]

And you make this judgment how?

Don't get sucked in... they're just funning ya.

Don't say I didn't tell ya so ;-)

Here in Vintage... one is safe. You started a cool thread. That makes you good people which is the right way to start off here.

And whatever you do... don't give a squirrel your address.

Just 'sayin.

Sirhr

 

[Son of Dorn]

And you make this judgment how?

Don't worry, it could be worse.


You could be a pigeon instead...

But like Sirhr said, this is Vintage. Vintage is a good place to be. Make yourself at home, we have wood and blued steel here.

 

[pitspitr]

I don't steal valor.

But you are and you did

Yeah, Squirrel, you want to be careful. My wife was a Squirrel (Weverka) before she became a Couch and you DON'T want to p!$$ her off!

 

[Secret SQL]

Thanks for all the support. This seems to be a great place to hangout and learn. I'm looking forward to both.

 

[Secret SQL]

Pics...

 

[Lange Carabine]

You have a No.4 Mk.1 made by ROF(F), ( Royal Ordnance Factory- Fazakerly) in July 1943 that was FTR'd, ( Factory Through Repair= means it was completely rebuilt at the factory) in 1947 by Fazakerly.
Reckon you got that scope high enough? Geez you must have a neck like a pond gannet.....
I'm surprised you had enough elevation adjustment to zero it inside 300 yards.
That just might explain the weird recoil impulse you inquired about too.

^pond gannet^

 

[Son of Dorn]

You have a No.4 Mk.1 made by ROF(F), ( Royal Ordnance Factory- Fazakerly) in July 1943 that was FTR'd, ( Factory Through Repair= means it was completely rebuilt at the factory) in 1947 by Fazakerly.
Reckon you got that scope high enough? Geez you must have a neck like a pond gannet.....
I'm surprised you had enough elevation adjustment to zero it inside 300 yards.
That just might explain the weird recoil impulse you inquired about too.View attachment 7623531
^pond gannet^

That's an egret though...

@Secret SQL What's that gewgaw on the barrel there? A weight? Could be affecting your recoil, maybe?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You have a No.4 Mk.1 made by ROF(F), ( Royal Ordnance Factory- Fazakerly) in July 1943 that was FTR'd, ( Factory Through Repair= means it was completely rebuilt at the factory) in 1947 by Fazakerly.
Reckon you got that scope high enough? Geez you must have a neck like a pond gannet.....
I'm surprised you had enough elevation adjustment to zero it inside 300 yards.
That just might explain the weird recoil impulse you inquired about too.View attachment 7623531
^pond gannet^

Pond gannet... ROTFLMAO...

OP, you did not hurt that rifle at all.

Curious what that thing on the barrel is?

Sirhr

 

[Lange Carabine]

That's an egret though...

Yeah, I know. Great Egret actually.
Old timers just called them pond gannets....

 

[sirhrmechanic]

“I don’t like gannets. They wet their nests.”



Sirhr

 

[6.5SH]

ROTFLMAO...

OP, you did not hurt that rifle at all.

Curious what that thing on the barrel is?

Sirhr

It is a barrel tuner I believe.

EDIT:

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