Anybody read the Marine Times article on new Marine sniper MOS

[sandwarrior]

So I get this article on my phone about how they need to revamp the course and they are having too many washouts.

I’m not smart enough to copy the article on my new phone. Maybe one of you can help out.

Anyhow, what gives? The big boys not putting money where it belongs? Wrong people with wrong priorities too involved?

 

[pmclaine]

My job cant get kids motivated to run 1.5 miles for the chance to attain a $2M career with retirement pension of 70%.

Im fearing "revamping" is thesaurus speak for "watering down".

 

[ArmyJerry]

dam I thought every marine thought themselves a sniper,,, or is that just the seals?

 

[pmclaine]

dam I thought every marine thought themselves a sniper,,, or is that just the seals?

We all dream of being Coast Guard snipers..........

Had to steal your thunder, I knew you were waiting to pull that gem out of your ass....getting slow.

 

[Aaros143]

I can't get enough people to fill the four slots I currently have in my section. Everyone wants to be cool and hang out with the cool guys. But nobody will do the basic work.

 

[pmclaine]

I can't get enough people to fill the four slots I currently have in my section. Everyone wants to be cool and hang out with the cool guys. But nobody will do the basic work.

Ill go!

Im RE1A on my DD214. When do I report for school?

 

[Scott037]

My job cant get kids motivated to run 1.5 miles for the chance to attain a $2M career with retirement pension of 70%.

Im fearing "revamping" is thesaurus speak for "watering down".

Um how do I apply

 

[pmclaine]

Um how do I apply

Exactly

Take a test before you turn 35.

6 month academy, live in Mon through Friday.

15 years ago they had mental games exceeding Parris Island in my estimation.

Because I was in good shape the two hour daily PT was my time.

It was the other 8 hours they fucked with me that sucked.

 

[Huskydriver]

Exactly

Take a test before you turn 35.

6 month academy, live in Mon through Friday.

15 years ago they had mental games exceeding Parris Island in my estimation.

Because I was in good shape the two hour daily PT was my time.

It was the other 8 hours they fucked with me that sucked.

What federal job gives 70% at retirement?

 

[pmclaine]

What federal job gives 70% at retirement?

State.

Not actually expecting to see it by the time I need it.

I'm sure I'll get fucked.

States are rich, don't you know, especially liberal ones.

 

[Huskydriver]

State.

Not actually expecting to see it by the time I need it.

I'm sure I'll get fucked.

States are rich, don't you know, especially liberal ones.

No I don't. I have always lived in former Confederate states until moving out west...I know nothing about that liberal life lol

 

[Aaros143]

Ill go!

Im RE1A on my DD214. When do I report for school?

Don't tempt me. Got a slot open on the 17th

 

[sandwarrior]

Don't tempt me. Got a slot open on the 17th

What is going on at your level to try and improve the situation, if I may ask?

I’m sad to hear this at this stage in the game. I think when kids go hungry when they don’t help out, their attitude might change. This whole mentality, military and non, needs a hard check into the boards.

 

[Aaros143]

What is going on at your level to try and improve the situation, if I may ask?

I’m sad to hear this at this stage in the game. I think when kids go hungry when they don’t help out, their attitude might change. This whole mentality, military and non, needs a hard check into the boards.

Could you clarify the question a bit? Like what am I personally doing to try and get new guys?

 

[sandwarrior]

What you or the unit could do. I understand too though, if the decisions are made a few levels up from you.

I was thinking what it might take to motivate individuals with potential to try it out?

 

[WATERWALKER]

Get off their asses, put their phones down & PT. Closing the FB account & taking legit shooting courses would also help. Not to mention having a plan of what skills / deficiencies to conquer while at the range. That’ll do for starters.

 

[sandwarrior]

Get off their asses, put their phones down & PT. Closing the FB account & taking legit shooting courses would also help. Not to mention having a plan of what skills / deficiencies to conquer while at the range. That’ll do for starters.

I know I’m old, but I kinda thought the hierarchy still had enough sway to make that happen if it wasn’t happening enough. I’m talking about individuals who would do that by choice if given the opportunity.

I came from a mixed world in my day as well. In my time in the Rangers it was filled with doing the same stuff. After several ops of the same thing over and over, it did tend to lose its excitement. When I went to Bragg for Scuba school I got an eyeful of all the things you could also do. Seems to me the Rangers and Marines had that commonality. SF had a lot to see and learn.

All of them required a lot of physical work.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Fuckin Marine Corps needs to disband the sniper platoons, give the current 0317's the option to go back to being an 11 or go through the MARSOC pipeline. Once through that, they go to a Sniper company/section under MARSOC. Run that shit on a cycle of deployments, training, and admin/leave/pre-deploy/whatever. Would fix the retention issue and the funding issue for schools and equipment. All snipers would then have the same follow-on training and skills under their belt along with the ability to better sell themselves to the units they get sent to support. We were tired of being shit on by BNCOs who (day 1) hated snipers, for whatever reason, an denied advanced school slots. Hell, we sat there and watched SERE slots be denied to us because some fucking S1 gunny would get it as a reenlistment incentive.

Just my two cents.

-Super Boot

 

[sandwarrior]

Fuckin Marine Corps needs to disband the sniper platoons, give the current 0317's the option to go back to being an 11 or go through the MARSOC pipeline. Once through that, they go to a Sniper company/section under MARSOC. Run that shit on a cycle of deployments, training, and admin/leave/pre-deploy/whatever. Would fix the retention issue and the funding issue for schools and equipment. All snipers would then have the same follow-on training and skills under their belt along with the ability to better sell themselves to the units they get sent to support. We were tired of being shit on by BNCOs who (day 1) hated snipers, for whatever reason, an denied advanced school slots. Hell, we sat there and watched SERE slots be denied to us because some fucking S1 gunny would get it as a reenlistment incentive.

Just my two cents.

-Super Boot

I hurts to hear that two generations separated, the same shit still goes on. Seems like ass-kissin' is the one thing that never goes out of style. And, the guys that do it get the work done for the BNCO are the ones that get left behind. We had a lot of O-types in the Army acting the same way. We see effectiveness on the ground, and in the AA meeting I get that it was so-and-so's great artillery coordination (that took three hours to walk in), and my fave...The air controller who finally gave the right directions to an A-10 (six wrong targets) yelling, "I got him, I got him!" I'm like "No you didn't, you finally gave him the info he needed to 'get him'." ...I noted silently from ten feet away (but did roll my eyes)

So question, do Marines go straight through basic, school then the platoon? Or, do they spend at least some time in a line unit?

 

[pmclaine]

Don't tempt me. Got a slot open on the 17th

I'll put my wife on notice.

Just send an order and I'll have enough cover "Gee Hon, My country needs me....."

 

[TACC]

Semper fi

Same shit, different day, year.

 

[M8541Reaper]

So question, do Marines go straight through basic, school then the platoon? Or, do they spend at least some time in a line unit?

They used to but then manning became an issue in 2006 and they started taking boots right out of SOI. Sure we had some good PIGs and you have the ability to prevent bad habits before they form, but you lose the maturity factor in some cases. I'm torn between the decision to take boots from SOI and only take dudes who have a deployment, because we all know that just because you have a deployment, doesn't mean you aren't squared away. I went to the platoon after my first deployment so +1 there but we also had some solid PIGs from SOI so +1 there as well. #EqualRightsEqualHazing #SlayPIGs

 

[Aaros143]

What you or the unit could do. I understand too though, if the decisions are made a few levels up from you.

I was thinking what it might take to motivate individuals with potential to try it out?

The conditions in my unit right now actually couldn't be better. I wrote out my entire wishlist for how I want to run tryouts for the section, our own 2 week sniper AT and training schedule for the year. Troop commander is completely on board, SGM is on board, squadron CO is on board. Our squadron S3 right now is a prior service Marine Corps S/S and he's the AGR commander for the training area we use. So as far as conditions within the unit it's like the stars finally aligned, the sun shined, doves flew and god said go forth and sniper all the things.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to aspire to do this job. We get to do a lot of outside competitions, work on our own a lot and generally don't have to deal with any of the day to day crap that happens in a line unit. And we get to train and shoot a lot.

I remember my time in the Marines when the STA platoon guys would put out the notice that they were running an indoctrination because they had 3 slots to fill and 20 plus Marines would show up. Myself included. I announced tryouts last drill and got two dudes that don't even meet the minimum requirements. And I have 4 slots to fill. Ask around and talk to the guys that meet requirements and nobody really wants to do any extra work or have any interest in the job. Luckily the S3 is gonna put the word out to a bunch of other units so hopefully we get some qualified people.

 

[sandwarrior]

The conditions in my unit right now actually couldn't be better. I wrote out my entire wishlist for how I want to run tryouts for the section, our own 2 week sniper AT and training schedule for the year. Troop commander is completely on board, SGM is on board, squadron CO is on board. Our squadron S3 right now is a prior service Marine Corps S/S and he's the AGR commander for the training area we use. So as far as conditions within the unit it's like the stars finally aligned, the sun shined, doves flew and god said go forth and sniper all the things.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to aspire to do this job. We get to do a lot of outside competitions, work on our own a lot and generally don't have to deal with any of the day to day crap that happens in a line unit. And we get to train and shoot a lot.

I remember my time in the Marines when the STA platoon guys would put out the notice that they were running an indoctrination because they had 3 slots to fill and 20 plus Marines would show up. Myself included. I announced tryouts last drill and got two dudes that don't even meet the minimum requirements. And I have 4 slots to fill. Ask around and talk to the guys that meet requirements and nobody really wants to do any extra work or have any interest in the job. Luckily the S3 is gonna put the word out to a bunch of other units so hopefully we get some qualified people.

That is awesome to hear. A lot of people think that stepping up, like going S/S or Ranger in the Army, is nothing but more work. Truth is you leave a lot of the bullshit behind when you do. That part of it never gets told.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I read the Marine Tiimes out loud to a group of Marines at the VFW as they cant read,,, ged classes are coming along well though, we are now counting to 20 when I told them how to use their toes to keep track.

 

[pmclaine]

I read the Marine Tiimes out loud to a group of Marines at the VFW as they cant read,,, ged classes are coming along well though, we are now counting to 20 when I told them how to use their toes to keep track.

Dare I ask what color snacks you served?

 

[Aaros143]

That is awesome to hear. A lot of people think that stepping up, like going S/S or Ranger in the Army, is nothing but more work. Truth is you leave a lot of the bullshit behind when you do. That part of it never gets told.

I've tried relaying that point. Yeah there's some rucking but you don't have to deal with people bitching about what boots you wear or how your shit is set up. I just had a couple guys out to the ranch last wknd to practice stalking. It was fun. We got them a bunch of good reps in, grilled meat and drank beer in the evening. But kids literally have no motivation. And I don't know how to change it.

 

[Huskydriver]

I've tried relaying that point. Yeah there's some rucking but you don't have to deal with people bitching about what boots you wear or how your shit is set up. I just had a couple guys out to the ranch last wknd to practice stalking. It was fun. We got them a bunch of good reps in, grilled meat and drank beer in the evening. But kids literally have no motivation. And I don't know how to change it.

Your in the NG I take it since you mentioned "drill"?

 

[Aaros143]

Your in the NG I take it since you mentioned "drill"?

Correct

 

[sleeplz]

I know it's easy to look at the young guys and tell them to put their phones down and do great things. But my experience has been, units being pushed too hard and burning guys out. It's to the point we can't focus on basic fighting tasks, but we have to go online and complete courses or sit through death by powerpoint.

Next, you have your equipment and vehicles which you have to maintain and it requires countless man hours while wives, kids, and husbands are at home wondering when to pull dinner back out of the fridge for the young soldier/marine that can't put down their phone.

There's more I can say but it's best to just stop there. Before any of you guys joke about wanting a slot or looking down at the young guys, ask yourself if you could make it through that course right now. The answer is probably some excuse, and if it's not, you can see your local recruiter and tell them you wanna be a marine scout sniper! Good luck to you guys that can talk.

 

[sandwarrior]

I know it's easy to look at the young guys and tell them to put their phones down and do great things. But my experience has been, units being pushed too hard and burning guys out. It's to the point we can't focus on basic fighting tasks, but we have to go online and complete courses or sit through death by powerpoint.

Next, you have your equipment and vehicles which you have to maintain and it requires countless man hours while wives, kids, and husbands are at home wondering when to pull dinner back out of the fridge for the young soldier/marine that can't put down their phone.

There's more I can say but it's best to just stop there. Before any of you guys joke about wanting a slot or looking down at the young guys, ask yourself if you could make it through that course right now. The answer is probably some excuse, and if it's not, you can see your local recruiter and tell them you wanna be a marine scout sniper! Good luck to you guys that can talk.

First, this is an article from the Marine Times, not just a bunch of guys talking.
Second, a number of people come from military experience. So, “ putting the phones down” is a legit beef.
Third, my own experience is both line and staff (S-3) at a Ranger BN. While not qualified as a sniper, I did run the training for our Battalion. So, I know of what I speak. And, what has been related to me in this thread sounds legit.

Yeah, it’s always seemed that younger guys need a little direction and clarity. But we’re talking about a segment that has never needed to have motivation added to it to get people to do this.

And, FWIW, I was Jump, Ranger, and Scuba Qualified. I instructed advanced mountaineering and also ran the Demo/Eng., Scout Swimmer, and HALO training for the BN. We had a lot of motivated individuals back then. Not understanding why we can’t seem to find them now.

 

[Redmanss]

Here's some reading links for those who aren't up to looking for it:

Sniper shortage: Too many Marines are washing out of sniper school

The Marine Corps is facing a “critical gap” of scout snipers due to the high washout rates during training, so the Corps is looking at changes to how the elite snipers are trained.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The sniper shortfall: Why the Corps could lose its next urban fight

The Corps says it only has 150 sergeants and below holding the coveted 0317 scout sniper job field.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The one SW is talking about in the OP: https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...testing-a-proof-of-concept-for-scout-snipers/

On the training side of things, the land nav has always been one of the biggest attrition elements of school ever since we switched to the 175 SMK, which co-occurred with GPS becoming common usage in the Marine Corps. The shooting portion got way easier with the more accurate ammunition, but squad level usage of GPS ruined the core fundamentals of land navigation. Until then, a line company had one PLGR allocated to them and there were no affordable handheld GPS options for people to buy themselves, then all the sudden Garmin units were available for $200 and the damn things were in every grunt's deuce gear. Commanders stopped accepting anything other than a GPS grid, especially for calling in fires due to past catastrophic errors that resulted in sweeping changes, so the practice of map and compass navigation became next to nil. That I blame on the Corps and Pentagon as a whole, as when these young Marines get to a STA Platoon they don't have the learning base to lean upon to ensure success when they hit SSBC and mere possession of a GPS anytime in the school is an integrity violation and immediate droppable offense. When my platoon started taking land nav drops, we immediately scheduled two weeks of dedicated navigation training for all upcoming students before they went to school.

Back to shooting, I'm clueless as to why marksmanship is such a killer in school today. When AA11/M118LR replaced the old M118 SB, marksmanship drops in school became nearly unheard of, and stalking took sole reign for #1 PIG killer in school in the late 90s to early 2000s. I know the UKD qual is a killer, but that is less from marksmanship and more from lack of range est training, an easily teachable skill. With today's weapons and optics, combined with vastly greater knowledge of ballistics, I honestly just don't fucking get how they are doing worse than we did with 173gr special ball out of an M40A1 and near zero drop charts other than our SWAG drops we were using. For fuck's sake, we still were using a "One minute change per 20°F shift from zero" mentality for adjustment of environmental changes, and were taught more humidity made air MORE dense.

I know the training and incredible instructor base is there, the science and equipment is leaps and bounds better than ever, and that just makes me think the raw student product of today's young generation is turning into shit. I struggle to accept that, every time I hear bitching about millennials, they surprise the hell out of me by doing some seriously badass shit. But maybe the biggest section of those who are good are the ones who also aren't joining. The fact DoD became nothing more than a liberal social experiment from '09-'17 cannot be ignored, as I certainly wouldn't want to play that bullshit these days.

I don't care where Marines come from before the Corps, as I've had high shooters in school who never touched a rifle before joining, and I've had a city boy Boston Southie take high stalker. I sent one 5'2" kid two weeks out of SOI to school and thought he had absolutely zero chance of making it past week one, and he graduated. Heart and drive is all success requires, whether in college, business, or in Scout Sniper School, and it's the one thing that can't be taught past puberty.

 

[FS1]

Sometime after the Dolphins undefeated 72 team winning the super bowl. Don Shula was asked how he found so many winners so fast to build that team. He said he did not look for people who wanted to win (everyone wants to win). He looked for guys who hated to lose. Success in Elite groups comes from never quitting. To some men quitting is worse than pain or even death. JMHO

 

[sandwarrior]

Here's some reading links for those who aren't up to looking for it:

Sniper shortage: Too many Marines are washing out of sniper school

The Marine Corps is facing a “critical gap” of scout snipers due to the high washout rates during training, so the Corps is looking at changes to how the elite snipers are trained.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The sniper shortfall: Why the Corps could lose its next urban fight

The Corps says it only has 150 sergeants and below holding the coveted 0317 scout sniper job field.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The one SW is talking about in the OP: https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...testing-a-proof-of-concept-for-scout-snipers/

On the training side of things, the land nav has always been one of the biggest attrition elements of school ever since we switched to the 175 SMK, which co-occurred with GPS becoming common usage in the Marine Corps. The shooting portion got way easier with the more accurate ammunition, but squad level usage of GPS ruined the core fundamentals of land navigation. Until then, a line company had one PLGR allocated to them and there were no affordable handheld GPS options for people to buy themselves, then all the sudden Garmin units were available for $200 and the damn things were in every grunt's deuce gear. Commanders stopped accepting anything other than a GPS grid, especially for calling in fires due to past catastrophic errors that resulted in sweeping changes, so the practice of map and compass navigation became next to nil. That I blame on the Corps and Pentagon as a whole, as when these young Marines get to a STA Platoon they don't have the learning base to lean upon to ensure success when they hit SSBC and mere possession of a GPS anytime in the school is an integrity violation and immediate droppable offense. When my platoon started taking land nav drops, we immediately scheduled two weeks of dedicated navigation training for all upcoming students before they went to school.

Back to shooting, I'm clueless as to why marksmanship is such a killer in school today. When AA11/M118LR replaced the old M118 SB, marksmanship drops in school became nearly unheard of, and stalking took sole reign for #1 PIG killer in school in the late 90s to early 2000s. I know the UKD qual is a killer, but that is less from marksmanship and more from lack of range est training, an easily teachable skill. With today's weapons and optics, combined with vastly greater knowledge of ballistics, I honestly just don't fucking get how they are doing worse than we did with 173gr special ball out of an M40A1 and near zero drop charts other than our SWAG drops we were using. For fuck's sake, we still were using a "One minute change per 20°F shift from zero" mentality for adjustment of environmental changes, and were taught more humidity made air MORE dense.

I know the training and incredible instructor base is there, the science and equipment is leaps and bounds better than ever, and that just makes me think the raw student product of today's young generation is turning into shit. I struggle to accept that, every time I hear bitching about millennials, they surprise the hell out of me by doing some seriously badass shit. But maybe the biggest section of those who are good are the ones who also aren't joining. The fact DoD became nothing more than a liberal social experiment from '09-'17 cannot be ignored, as I certainly wouldn't want to play that bullshit these days.

I don't care where Marines come from before the Corps, as I've had high shooters in school who never touched a rifle before joining, and I've had a city boy Boston Southie take high stalker. I sent one 5'2" kid two weeks out of SOI to school and thought he had absolutely zero chance of making it past week one, and he graduated. Heart and drive is all success requires, whether in college, business, or in Scout Sniper School, and it's the one thing that can't be taught past puberty.

Glad you posted! This makes me wonder too, if the question the MT is asking is a bit misdirected? Meaning, is the mainstream Marine Corps not seeing the value in having sniper capability. As an example, even senior NCO’s and company grade officers had to have their arms twisted to give up people for specialty training. Those I mentioned above.

 

[Redmanss]

There's always been animosity by standard career type 0302 Infantry Officers and anything "special". Company grade are typically very supportive, they know what a SS team attached to them gives when it comes to on target surveillance prior to a raid or assault. It's just when it comes to releasing anyone from their company to attend an indoc is where they have issues. I took mine when my CO and PltSgt was attending a school, otherwise I was going nowhere. Add to that the powers that be in Quantico have resisted improving the Corps' sniper programs, it's been a continuous uphill battle.

Just read this about the beginning of the school house back in the 70s. http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/history_of_the_usmc_sniper_school.pdf

The rivalry goes back to WWII and Edson spinning up the Raider BNs. Line officers get really butt hurt if you tell them their regular infantry unit not the best there is.

 

[M8541Reaper]

On the training side of things, the land nav has always been one of the biggest attrition elements of school ever since we switched to the 175 SMK, which co-occurred with GPS becoming common usage in the Marine Corps. The shooting portion got way easier with the more accurate ammunition, but squad level usage of GPS ruined the core fundamentals of land navigation.

For fuck's sake, we still were using a "One minute change per 20°F shift from zero" mentality for adjustment of environmental changes, and were taught more humidity made air MORE dense.

This.

 

[pmclaine]

I've tried relaying that point. Yeah there's some rucking but you don't have to deal with people bitching about what boots you wear or how your shit is set up. I just had a couple guys out to the ranch last wknd to practice stalking. It was fun. We got them a bunch of good reps in, grilled meat and drank beer in the evening. But kids literally have no motivation. And I don't know how to change it.

Part of the problem is that the military experience is wasted on the young.

The work requires the young body but it suffers the young mind.

A first enlistment is useless.

It was only toward the end of my 4 years I began to emerge from the fog and realize "I get this, I can do this job. Where is the EAS counselor to check me out?"

All the disciplines - fitness, MOS specific knowledge, Gaming the bureaucracy - takes close to 5 years to learn.

War likely accelerates that education but a boot in peace is cannon fodder until they approach 4 years of service.

I was in an Infantry Regiment and despite going in on the guaranteed 03 contract I was motivated for I hated the reality so much I volunteered my ass to MSG and living large.

Later I got called back for Desert Storm I and experienced re-entry into a real serious Infantry experience. It was no joke while it lasted and I realized after 4.5 years I finally had the maturity and knowledge to do it. PT by this time was part of my routine and I was good to go. Of course the war ended before we could leave Pendleton and immediately returned to being civilians within seconds to the point I watched a platoon member with hands in his pockets tell an Active enlistment Sgt to go fuck himself with hand gestures and there was nothing the good sarge could do that would matter.

Maybe Im just kind of slow and others are quicker on the pickup but thats my theory.

The opposite side of that theory is that once a boot has his 4 years and becomes a salt he likely has a family, good gig he doesnt want to leave or gets promoted out of the ability to slot.

Its a tougher job to put the right pegs in the empty holes than people think.

 

[pmclaine]

First, this is an article from the Marine Times, not just a bunch of guys talking.
Second, a number of people come from military experience. So, “ putting the phones down” is a legit beef.
Third, my own experience is both line and staff (S-3) at a Ranger BN. While not qualified as a sniper, I did run the training for our Battalion. So, I know of what I speak. And, what has been related to me in this thread sounds legit.

Yeah, it’s always seemed that younger guys need a little direction and clarity. But we’re talking about a segment that has never needed to have motivation added to it to get people to do this.

And, FWIW, I was Jump, Ranger, and Scuba Qualified. I instructed advanced mountaineering and also ran the Demo/Eng., Scout Swimmer, and HALO training for the BN. We had a lot of motivated individuals back then. Not understanding why we can’t seem to find them now.

Do you find the various "Times" publications that credible?

Ive not been that impressed by the "Army Times" my service retired barber would fill the shop with.

 

[pmclaine]

First, this is an article from the Marine Times, not just a bunch of guys talking.
Second, a number of people come from military experience. So, “ putting the phones down” is a legit beef.
Third, my own experience is both line and staff (S-3) at a Ranger BN. While not qualified as a sniper, I did run the training for our Battalion. So, I know of what I speak. And, what has been related to me in this thread sounds legit.

Yeah, it’s always seemed that younger guys need a little direction and clarity. But we’re talking about a segment that has never needed to have motivation added to it to get people to do this.

And, FWIW, I was Jump, Ranger, and Scuba Qualified. I instructed advanced mountaineering and also ran the Demo/Eng., Scout Swimmer, and HALO training for the BN. We had a lot of motivated individuals back then. Not understanding why we can’t seem to find them now.

Part of the reason there are fewer is the "War on Toxic Masculinity" is making its mark.

I spent my youth shining my BB guns, building Tamiya models and watching old B&W war movies.

These kids today will explain to you the history of the rainbow flag and everything is racist.

 

[Redmanss]

Do you find the various "Times" publications that credible?

Ive not been that impressed by the "Army Times" my service retired barber would fill the shop with.

The entirety of the "Times" publications are skewed left. Same goes with anything by Task and Purpose. Media is media these days.

 

[pmclaine]

Here's some reading links for those who aren't up to looking for it:

Sniper shortage: Too many Marines are washing out of sniper school

The Marine Corps is facing a “critical gap” of scout snipers due to the high washout rates during training, so the Corps is looking at changes to how the elite snipers are trained.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The sniper shortfall: Why the Corps could lose its next urban fight

The Corps says it only has 150 sergeants and below holding the coveted 0317 scout sniper job field.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The one SW is talking about in the OP: https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...testing-a-proof-of-concept-for-scout-snipers/

On the training side of things, the land nav has always been one of the biggest attrition elements of school ever since we switched to the 175 SMK, which co-occurred with GPS becoming common usage in the Marine Corps. The shooting portion got way easier with the more accurate ammunition, but squad level usage of GPS ruined the core fundamentals of land navigation. Until then, a line company had one PLGR allocated to them and there were no affordable handheld GPS options for people to buy themselves, then all the sudden Garmin units were available for $200 and the damn things were in every grunt's deuce gear. Commanders stopped accepting anything other than a GPS grid, especially for calling in fires due to past catastrophic errors that resulted in sweeping changes, so the practice of map and compass navigation became next to nil. That I blame on the Corps and Pentagon as a whole, as when these young Marines get to a STA Platoon they don't have the learning base to lean upon to ensure success when they hit SSBC and mere possession of a GPS anytime in the school is an integrity violation and immediate droppable offense. When my platoon started taking land nav drops, we immediately scheduled two weeks of dedicated navigation training for all upcoming students before they went to school.

Back to shooting, I'm clueless as to why marksmanship is such a killer in school today. When AA11/M118LR replaced the old M118 SB, marksmanship drops in school became nearly unheard of, and stalking took sole reign for #1 PIG killer in school in the late 90s to early 2000s. I know the UKD qual is a killer, but that is less from marksmanship and more from lack of range est training, an easily teachable skill. With today's weapons and optics, combined with vastly greater knowledge of ballistics, I honestly just don't fucking get how they are doing worse than we did with 173gr special ball out of an M40A1 and near zero drop charts other than our SWAG drops we were using. For fuck's sake, we still were using a "One minute change per 20°F shift from zero" mentality for adjustment of environmental changes, and were taught more humidity made air MORE dense.

I know the training and incredible instructor base is there, the science and equipment is leaps and bounds better than ever, and that just makes me think the raw student product of today's young generation is turning into shit. I struggle to accept that, every time I hear bitching about millennials, they surprise the hell out of me by doing some seriously badass shit. But maybe the biggest section of those who are good are the ones who also aren't joining. The fact DoD became nothing more than a liberal social experiment from '09-'17 cannot be ignored, as I certainly wouldn't want to play that bullshit these days.

I don't care where Marines come from before the Corps, as I've had high shooters in school who never touched a rifle before joining, and I've had a city boy Boston Southie take high stalker. I sent one 5'2" kid two weeks out of SOI to school and thought he had absolutely zero chance of making it past week one, and he graduated. Heart and drive is all success requires, whether in college, business, or in Scout Sniper School, and it's the one thing that can't be taught past puberty.

Always killed me to be doing stupid shit like drawing rifles to endlessly clean or cleaning HMMWV's when we could of drawn compasses and learned to use them.

Oh I forgot some private might lose a compass and it would end some Lts career.

 

[pmclaine]

Sometime after the Dolphins undefeated 72 team winning the super bowl. Don Shula was asked how he found so many winners so fast to build that team. He said he did not look for people who wanted to win (everyone wants to win). He looked for guys who hated to lose. Success in Elite groups comes from never quitting. To some men quitting is worse than pain or even death. JMHO

Patriots had a better record by the way........Mercury Morris can eat a dick.

 

[pmclaine]

Glad you posted! This makes me wonder too, if the question the MT is asking is a bit misdirected? Meaning, is the mainstream Marine Corps not seeing the value in having sniper capability. As an example, even senior NCO’s and company grade officers had to have their arms twisted to give up people for specialty training. Those I mentioned above.

No one wants to lose a good guy in the realm of few good men...

“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”

― Heraclitus

I think snipers should be endemic to the Squad.

A SL, FA/AC capable Comms, Sniper and 3 independent capable fire teams.

The sniper is at the command of the Squad leader to act as over watch or scout as needed. It increases Squad by one, Air/Arty capable Comms is attached.

Sniper in this role requires a pretty responsible person. At times he will be assigned a fire team for security/scouting as needed.

A guy like that is typically lost to the small unit leader after school so they send a shit bird or use the slot as a reward to someone that will never do the job.

Hows that for arm chair generalship?

 

[VP47PPC]

I'm sure I'll get fucked.

Yeah just hope your pension never goes to the PBGCA.

 

[pmclaine]

Yeah just hope your pension never goes to the PBGCA.

I think we are about two years away from being told "Its not fair some people have 401Ks".

$17 trillion in private savings will be looked on as ripe for the picking.

 

[pmclaine]

No one wants to lose a good guy in the realm of few good men...

“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”

― Heraclitus

I think snipers should be endemic to the Squad.

A SL, FA/AC capable Comms, Sniper and 3 independent capable fire teams.

The sniper is at the command of the Squad leader to act as over watch or scout as needed. It increases Squad by one, Air/Arty capable Comms is attached.

Sniper in this role requires a pretty responsible person. At times he will be assigned a fire team for security/scouting as needed.

A guy like that is typically lost to the small unit leader after school so they send a shit bird or use the slot as a reward to someone that will never do the job.

Hows that for arm chair generalship?

Amendment - Platoon is increased by two - Sniper and trained spotter. 15 total.

 

[awmp]

Marksmanship is not a normal skill or heck even going to the range.

The phone, computer and social media are easier for many to operate.

I went to the range last weekend, I asked a buddy if he wanted to meet at the range to shoot, he said yes and he would bring his son. (25 yrs old, very smart kid, just graduated college, Chemical Engineering).

Put a 1911 45 in the kids hand, told me "I don't like guns", I said why not, he could not give me a reason, by the end of the day the kid was asking for more ammo.

I looked at his dad and said what is wrong with you, he told me he had been trying to get his soon so shoot something since he was 11.

It is a different world.

 

[Redmanss]

Always killed me to be doing stupid shit like drawing rifles to endlessly clean or cleaning HMMWV's when we could of drawn compasses and learned to use them.

Oh I forgot some private might lose a compass and it would end some Lts career.

The biggest improvement the Corps could do is if they made land nav a CGI/MCCRE evaluated event at the individual Marine level. Too many officers above Plt Cmdr level only give a shit about things that hit their FITREP, and having the risk of their unit fail an event like that would be the only way it would get the attention it deserves. It always seemed each squad has one guy who was a master at land nav, and they were the only one who ever did it on patrol while nobody else ever got practice. The squad leaders and up forget training is for training EVERYONE in their unit, and roles should always be rotated.

Not to toot my own horn, but back in my finer day I was a wizard at the CAST trainer. I could eyeball a 6-digit grid from the terrain model to my map and have the laser beam hit right on the model tanks on the first call, all over but the fire for effect. We would roll out to CAX and I would have one adjustment at most to have steel on steel with 155s with an O-T distance of 10km. I didn't get that way over night, and it damn sure wasn't a natural talent I had. I learned how to read terrain both on the ground and on a topo map through an uncountable amount of practice. I didn't use pace counts and rarely broke out the lensatic if I wasn't calling in a fire mission, I just used my map and surroundings along with a little cardinal direction compass on my watch band. Day, night, fog, flat, mountains, swamps, whatever, no difference in what I did. I learned that from doing it, missing an objective more than once, correcting my failures and getting it right the next time.

I still don't use GPS in the field on the ground, although I did while I was in and a CAAT Section Leader adn PltSgt, vehicles move too fast and too far apart for me to lead a unit and also keep up with our location. I'm ordering in some more maps for a venture into the Bighorns chasing golden trout, have my old lensatic to use, although the tritium is nowhere near as bright as it used to be, yet the compass on my Pathfinder watch does 98% of the lifting. Map, compass, fly rod, hatchet, bivvy bag, booze and smokes, all I need for a successful weekend getting "lost" in the mountains while knowing exactly where I'm at every step of the way.

 

[pmclaine]

Marksmanship is not a normal skill or heck even going to the range.

The phone, computer and social media are easier for many to operate.

I went to the range last weekend, I asked a buddy if he wanted to meet at the range to shoot, he said yes and he would bring his son. (25 yrs old, very smart kid, just graduated college, Chemical Engineering).

Put a 1911 45 in the kids hand, told me "I don't like guns", I said why not, he could not give me a reason, by the end of the day the kid was asking for more ammo.

I looked at his dad and said what is wrong with you, he told me he had been trying to get his soon so shoot something since he was 11.

It is a different world.

My kid would rather play Fort Nite than actually shoot.

There is more to the story than that but that is the basic gist.

These kids know guns because of the game.

The language when playing is "I have a SCAR", "Go get the RPG", "My AR is down".

Wonder how this new knowledge/language is going over in the hyper sensitive school setting.

Wish it would translate into learning to use real guns safely.

 

[pmclaine]

The biggest improvement the Corps could do is if they made land nav a CGI/MCCRE evaluated event at the individual Marine level. Too many officers above Plt Cmdr level only give a shit about things that hit their FITREP, and having the risk of their unit fail an event like that would be the only way it would get the attention it deserves. It always seemed each squad has one guy who was a master at land nav, and they were the only one who ever did it on patrol while nobody else ever got practice. The squad leaders and up forget training is for training EVERYONE in their unit, and roles should always be rotated.

Not to toot my own horn, but back in my finer day I was a wizard at the CAST trainer. I could eyeball a 6-digit grid from the terrain model to my map and have the laser beam hit right on the model tanks on the first call, all over but the fire for effect. We would roll out to CAX and I would have one adjustment at most to have steel on steel with 155s with an O-T distance of 10km. I didn't get that way over night, and it damn sure wasn't a natural talent I had. I learned how to read terrain both on the ground and on a topo map through an uncountable amount of practice. I didn't use pace counts and rarely broke out the lensatic if I wasn't calling in a fire mission, I just used my map and surroundings along with a little cardinal direction compass on my watch band. Day, night, fog, flat, mountains, swamps, whatever, no difference in what I did. I learned that from doing it, missing an objective more than once, correcting my failures and getting it right the next time.

I still don't use GPS in the field on the ground, although I did while I was in and a CAAT Section Leader adn PltSgt, vehicles move too fast and too far apart for me to lead a unit and also keep up with our location. I'm ordering in some more maps for a venture into the Bighorns chasing golden trout, have my old lensatic to use, although the tritium is nowhere near as bright as it used to be, yet the compass on my Pathfinder watch does 98% of the lifting. Map, compass, fly rod, hatchet, bivvy bag, booze and smokes, all I need for a successful weekend getting "lost" in the mountains while knowing exactly where I'm at every step of the way.

I have 14 acres of woods behind my house.

Id love to set some ammo cans up out there and learn to be better with map and compass, general land nav.

Any sources for getting maps of areas in a useable scale for areas that generally are not mapped?