Gunsmithing Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

[Graham]

Has anyone built a straight .284Win repeater on a short action and successfully chambered it for 180VLD's to the lands from the magazine?

If so, what mags do you use and/or what is the modification to the mags?

If not, did you build on a long action instead and do you think an AE MKII and/or MKI can be easily converted?

 

[300sniper]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

i think you will loose a lot of performance in a short action, especially with 180 vlds. i have not tried the 180's yet but a quick rough measurement looks like ideally they would be seated to 3.2" oal. i seat 175 smk's to 3.1" oal. if you put either one of them in a short action repeater, they would be way back into the powder column.

 

[Graham]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Maybe I should use a Long action, standard boltface, then. Any idea how easy it is to convert the AI .300WM mags to .284? Is it as easy as bending the feed lips like they do to make them work with 30-06?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

So tell me, just wherein lies the drawback involved in seating bullets deeper than the neck? I hear lots of 'don't do its', but I'm unclear as to the 'whys'. This is an honest question, I just don't understand the issue.

Greg

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me, just wherein lies the drawback involved in seating bullets deeper than the neck? I hear lots of 'don't do its', but I'm unclear as to the 'whys'. This is an honest question, I just don't understand the issue.

Greg </div></div>

My understanding of this is loss of powder capacity. I see no other reason as a negative, in fact, when donuts start to form I see it as a positive thing to do in order to avoid them.

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me, just wherein lies the drawback involved in seating bullets deeper than the neck? I hear lots of 'don't do its', but I'm unclear as to the 'whys'. This is an honest question, I just don't understand the issue.

Greg</div></div>

Typically, loading these high performance cartridges with heavy bullets at the desired high velocities requires the use of a rather slow burning powder. These powders are normally bulky which makes it next to impossible to get enough into a case like a .284 if the bullet has to be seated deeply so that a loaded round will feed through a short action magazine. These cartridges need all the powder space they can get, and then some.

Attempts to duplicate the target velocities with a less bulky faster burning powder normally result in dangerously overpressure loads that have mostly been found to be inaccurate.

Also, the lack of magazine space (length) seriously limits your ability to seat the bullet out to chase the lands as your barrels throat wears.

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I should use a Long action, standard boltface, then. Any idea how easy it is to convert the AI .300WM mags to .284? Is it as easy as bending the feed lips like they do to make them work with 30-06?</div></div>

You probably will not have to modify the .300WM AICS magazine to feed the .284 at all.

I shoot a 6.5-284 built on a Stiller TAC300 action that I dropped into an AICS 1.5 LA. The .300WM magazine that came with my AICS feeds the 6.5-284 without a hitch. I have no reason to suspect that it wouldn't feed a standard .284 any differently.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

I build a .284 on a short action, running with a minor jump in my match chamber with the 168s required a seat length that was too long to fit my short action magazine, I don't have my OAL measurements with me, but like said above if you get a reamer that will work at mag length with the 180s you will lose the powder capacity to do any decent velocity with them. Also as stated above, the .284 has a wider body than the -06 case, so it should feed just fine with either no or very little lip tweaking in the 300 magazine. I have since taken my barrel off the short action, and will be putting it onto a long action to take advantage of the heavier bullets seated to my chambers throat... I was having to single feed in my short action.

Dave

Dave

 

[our gang]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Insofar as seating below the neck..... In the new Barnes reloading manual they talk about the 168 TSX in the 300
Winmag, stating that proper seating depth seats the bullet's 308 portion below the neck. They suggest a crimp to ensure feeding. My buddy who has a Wally World Savage loads these in his, uses a Lee Crimp die and shoots 3 in 3/4" with a Barnes max load of H4831SC.
Don't have that problem in my 300 H&H but we all know Holland & Holland was/is smarter than Winchester.(As was Norma with the 308 Norma magnum)......
pass the popcorn!

 

[Graham]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me, just wherein lies the drawback involved in seating bullets deeper than the neck?</div></div> Other than spiking pressures and dropping case capacity, some bullets have a pressure ring or a flare in the dimension at the base that plays havoc with consistent neck tension. That said, I seat 80JLK's deeper than the neck in .223, and they have a pronounced pressre ring, so it can be done with a minimal degradation of accuracy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpotcheckBilly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a 6.5-284 built on a Stiller TAC300 action that I dropped into an AICS 1.5 LA. The .300WM magazine that came with my AICS feeds the 6.5-284 without a hitch. I have no reason to suspect that it wouldn't feed a standard .284 any differently. </div></div>That's good info, right there, because I'm trying to decide between a .284 and a .280 for tactical comps, in an AICS.

Any experience with 168's vs 180's for OAL in the LA mag?
And what is the case capacity difference between the .280 and .284?

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

I have no experience with the .284 and the long heavy bullets needed for long range shooting, especially those VLD's needed for formal competitoion. I've had (and competed with) a couple of 6.5-284's but I'm always looking for "the next big thing"! I think that a standard .284W will be my next build if and when the economy improves enough to allow me to have some discretionary funds again.

I've done some preliminary ballistic work-ups and also talked to a couple of 1000 yard competitors who are running .284's. What's needed in a .284 bore rifle to compete with the 6.5-284's (140 gr. VLD's) and the short .300 mags (210 gr. VLD's) and stay within a somewhat moderate recoil range (those 80-round events can wear you out) is a cartridge along the lines of the
.284 Winchester or a .280 AI launching a very high BC bullet like a Berger 180 gr. VLD at around 2900 MV.

It's easy to attain those velocities with a magnum case, 7mm RM comes immediately to mind, but you're gonna pay the price in recoil and some additional barrel (throat) wear. So I was originally thinking of building a .280 AI, since Nosler offers some great .280AI brass that does not need to be fireformed (from .280R to .280 AI), but the brass is expensive and not always available. The standard .284W was attractive because Winchester always seems (or seemed) to have good quality .284 brass available at a decent price, but at the time getting 2900 MV with the Berger 180 out of this case with the available powders was pushing it. Just couldn't seem to get enough powder crammed in that case!

Then Alliant came out with their new Re17 powder. It is ideal for those who normally would use 4350 but fill up the case before achieving their desired velocity. In this case, it works sort of like a less bulky 4350 and allows the handloader to get up to a couple of hundred more fps from his cartridge without going overpressure (it's not limited to the .284, either). Try it with 115 DTAC's in your .243 and see how you like it.

Anyway, a .284 using factory Winchester brass, a full case of Re17 powder, and Berger 180 VLD's loaded out in a long receiver is probably the way I'm going to go. All of the results that I'm hearing are quite promising. Now if that damned economy would only cooperate (I'm not holding my breath).

 

[FNuser]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

I've had no trouble getting .280 ai nosler brass as for expense factor in the cost of components it takes to fireform brass in your rifle and I don't think they are that far out of line. If you've been under a rock the last month or so you probably haven't read the strings in reloading on the 280 ai but I'm just about to complete a 1-8 29"Hart on a Vanguard (Howa) long action Almost 3.6 mag length! Pete Lincoln is the howa guru and .257 is working out some great rl22 loads for 180 bergers. Thomas Manners has volunteered to Stock the affair as soon as I get him some dimensions. I think we'll get 2900 but I probably won't get over a chrony for at least 2 weeks.

 

[Graham]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

I am concerned that a 280AI won't feed well in a repeater, as I was going to use it for tactical comps: a heavy gun with AICS 2.0, MTU contour barrel, no brake, at about 19lbs fully dressed. Was thinking about maybe running 168 Berger VLD's at 2880fps or thereabouts, and probably could do that with a straight .280.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So tell me, just wherein lies the drawback involved in seating bullets deeper than the neck? I hear lots of 'don't do its', but I'm unclear as to the 'whys'. This is an honest question, I just don't understand the issue.

Greg </div></div>

i use winchester brass, 54.4 grains of 4831sc, 175 smk and br2 primers and get 2850 fps. 54.4 grains of 4831sc fills the entire body to the base of the shoulder. you would loose a lot of powder capacity by seating the bullet back another quarter inch or more.


the .284 feeds fine from 300 win mag magazines. you may have to slightly bend the feed lips. some of my mags were fine and others needed just a bit of adjustment.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Just got my rifle back from GAP
Removed a toasted 6.5 tube and replaced it with a 8.5 twist tube in std 284win at 27"its on a long action reamed to seat long. Broke in the barrel with 150 stuff that was laying around,180 bergers are in and and next week I hope to answer a lot of these questions.

 

[hexades1]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

I am having my gunsmith build a .284 Win which will use 180 VLD and maybe 168 VLDs. OAL will be 3.15" which is a compromise as the 180 VLD could be loaded even longer but I want to be able to shoot 168 VLDs, 162 A-Maxes and 175 Match Kings too so that they do not have to jump too much.

My rifle has a long action with a detachable magazine.

IMHO you need to load .284 Win long if you want to get trajectories which will be as good or better than factory loaded 338LM. This is especially true if you want to stay supersonic out to 1500 meters. If you shoot only out to 1000 yards then you can get by shooting the 168 VLD loaded within SA mag length.

EDIT on mags

With 10 round short action 308 mags (TRG, AI, Sauer 205 etc.) you can stuff in only 7 rounds of .284 Win in most cases. With most DM single stack mags you can get 5 rounds in. -> With single stack you do not lose much but you can get easier function AND a LA mag.

I have not seen too many 10 round double feed long action magazines. Tikka M65 Sporter in 30-06 used to have one but it has been out of production for more than 20 years. A perfect .284 Win candidate IMHO if you can find one, they were made even left-handed.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

So, aside from powder capacity issues, there's no mechanical reason why seating deeper into the case results in significant negative issues? Theres's also a suggestion that deeper seating helps prevent the emergence of donuts. My load development practices often result in in compressed loads. From my viewpoint, load density percentages of 100% and even compressed loads are a positive situation. IMHO, the only time a (non-max) compressed load becomes an issue is when bullets migrate forward somewhat after seating, screwing up the OAL/rifling relationship. This defeats the purpose of seating bullets deeper, but IMHO, that's the only real problem I can figure.

Greg

 

[Graham]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Thanks TA. What's the difference in case capacity between the .280 and the .284? Can I get more COAL from .284 in a long action magazine with the 180's than if I went with a straight .280?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

For 150gr bullets, the .280 takes about 3 more grains of powder at max. In doing so, the .280 gets 100fps more velocity.

The .284 was designed as a short action cartridge, while the .280 is based on the .30-'06 case, and is definietly a long action cartridge.

Personally, whatever objections I might have had about the 6.5mm-'06 as being overbore, are allayed in using the .280 (essentially a 7mm-'06), and I am about to embark on a load development project for an R77V in the .280 caliber.

Greg

 

[Graham]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Yeah, I have a Rem 700LA std bolt face and a long action AICS lying around. I really want a .284, but if I have to use a long action magazine to get the OAL I want with the .284 and 180's, then maybe straight .280 is better.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

When I went with the .260, I did it because I felt it used the .308's case capacity more (probably most) efficiently. Now, as I look more closely at the .280, I begin to feel the same way about it and the .30-'06 case capacity. As with the 6.5's, now the 7mm's are also showing better bullet choices as well. I figure a Nosler 140BT in a .280 is a nice compromise in terms of velocity, BC, and recoil; and those BT's do double duty for both comp and hunting.

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Greg,
A .284 case with its shorter fatter powder column goes more along with the modern thinking in that a cartridge with a short fat case is going to be more accurate than one with a longer more narrow powder column, all other things being equal.

The .284 was originally engineered by Winchester so they could get approximately .270 performance out of their new (at the time) autoloading and lever action rifles. So what? Does that mean that modern shooters have to limit that cartridge to short action rifles? Why not get all of the potential that's in it, put it in a long action and load the ultra-high BC bullets that have been developed for long range performance? Or is striving for long range performance not the subject of this thread?

And there's nothing wrong with the .280 Remington case, either, but I question if you can attain the desired velocities with a 180 Berger without going to a .280AI version for the extra powder capacity.

If you build a .284 in a short action and must stick to 168's or lighter because of the diminished powder capacity brought about by deep seating the bullet it seems to me that you're defeating the purpose of going to the 7mm bore size, which is to take advantage of the excellent BC's found in the 180 VLD bullets, at least in a competition or tactical rifle. Same goes for building a .280 and limiting yourself to the lighter bullets. All bets are off if you're taking about a hunting rifle, which I wasn't even thinking about when I first attemped to answer your question. And I won't even attempt to address the all purpose hunting/competition rifle issue as I don't think that a dual purpose rifle is any kind of answer, at least not in my world. There ain't no way that a 140 gr. 7mm bullet is gonna win at any of the LR matches that I've attended during the last several years, and when I enter a match it's with the idea of winning, or at least being competitive with the 'big dogs'.

Deep seating lighter bullets in order to squeeze a given cartridge into a short action is counterproductive if getting the most out of that cartridge is the goal. That's all there is to it, no matter what rationalizations are offered. When I answered your question about the negative aspects of deep seating bullets little did I realize that you had a dual purpose hunting/competition rifle in mind.

But build whatever floats your boat, I'm sure that you'll enjoy it no matter what.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Coupla things.

First, I have absolutely no qualms about using a .30-'06 case in as short action, as long as I can get an empty to eject.

Unfired rounds are seldom an issue for me, and if they are, I can trip the bolt release, withdraw the bolt the extra distance (or all the way out), and the cartidge is dealt with. Period.

Same applies to longer seating lengths.

But what about magazines, you may ask? I don't use magazines. I single feed. Period.

Velocities are not all that important to me. If I can get a .30-'06 to 1000yd with a 168 (and I'm pretty sure I can), I can get a 7mm 168 there with no more strain and pain. I don't honestly think I need 180's; I may be able to do it with a 140. For the nonce, I'm only really shooting shorter distances, and my intended initial development will be with 120 Nosler BT's.

I don't compete tactically, I stick to F Class, and am currently completely committed to FV200. With my age (63) and medical condition (congestive heart failure, with a 25-40% ejection fraction), tactical comp would probably kill me, and giving me any advantages would be unfair to the competition, not that they'd have anything to fear from me anyway. It's never been offered, and I wouldn't take it if it were.

I don't build or load with maximum velocity performance in mind. I build and load with adequate performance in mind, and do it with bore life as the primary concern.

Greg

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

2740 with 180 bergers @54g of 4831sc starts to make the bolt a little stickey.
Going to try the RL17 as I hope to get 2850.
But it did put all 5 in 1 hole.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

.280 test loads made up, 120 Noslers, Win brass/primer, 54.5, 55.0, 55.5, 56.0gr Ramshot Hunter. Will probably test tomorrow, weather permitting. Will be tested in an R77V, completely stock.

I don't shoot groups. I print a target that has 5 rows of four 1/2" yellow dots with heavy black borders, printed on regular 8 1/2" x 11" letter paper. Each shot goes to its own dot. First shots are 1 of each load, in increasing charge order, to get sighted and to pressure test. The remaining four of each load go one to a dot in their own row, assuming they demonstrated safe pressure signs.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

The tests went well, with 56gr being the most promising. Have made a second set of test loads at 55.8, 55.9, 56.0, 56.1, and 56.2gr, same shooting regimen. First round indicted hints of a double grouping endency. Went over the entire rifle, and pretty much every screw was a just a smidge looser than I'd like. That's been resolved.

After much thought, I've decided against pressing the .280 into comp usage; it's just too much energy being channeled into the barrel and receiver. I'm thinking the rifle will just not keep up the necessary firing cadence without overheating. I made that mistake with the .22-250 chambering, and it's high time I learned that lesson before I overcooked another really nice rifle.

Greg

 

[PFCSkoug]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Just so you know a "full case" of RE17 would be in the Neighborhood of 95000psi. Base begins to FLOW at 80000psi and I'm not sure of any action on the market that would disassemble itself at that kind of pressure, but other than that, good suggestion.

If you want 2900+ out of a .284win, all you have to do is look at the 500 series of VV powders. Specifically N560, out of a 30" tube (typical F-open length barrel) a 180grn Berger should be able to be pushed in the 3000fps range in the max pressure range.

By the way RE17 is placed in between RE-15 and RE-19 for a reason. If a case that needs to be running a slow burning powder like RE-22 (.284win for instance) just because Alliant comes out with this new miracle powder that gives great velocities in one case, doesn't mean that RE17 is perfect for every case ever to hit the market. By the way the VV 500 series powders still produce better velocities, and there is more than one burn rate to play with.

Sorry for the rant guys, that ones been brewing for a while.

 

[rijndael]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PFCSkoug</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just because Alliant comes out with this new miracle powder that gives great velocities in one case, doesn't mean that RE17 is perfect for every case ever to hit the market.</div></div>


http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html#284win
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2950 fps from standard .284 Win and 3050 fps from .284 Improved

Today, the 2950 fps goal IS achievable with 180s using the recently-released Reloder 17 powder from Alliant. That's big news for 7mm fans. <span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">This new propellant is nearly ideal for the .284 Win shooting the heavy 7mm bullets.</span> </span>Using RL 17, you can get 2950 fps fairly easily in a standard (non-improved) .284 Win case. Robert Whitley's tests have shown that. </div></div>

If you read the loading chart, he used 52 grains of powder to get 2950'ish fps.

 

[PFCSkoug]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

I know. I read the article to. Me personally I hate hearing powder rattling around inside my cases, so i choose a powder that is suited to the case so that i can fill the case up.

Running that load through quick load you have to have the bullet seated only .100 into the neck to make that load within saami spec. They never do say the COL that he was using but if QL's guess is anywhere close to the vel. that his barrel is able to make he would have to be running that load over 72000psi, and still only have 93.2% case fill.

In my opinion which is strictly my own, I feel that that powder is good for use in a case with less then 40grn of water capacity using heavy for cal bullets.

 

[jp67]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

How is this project going on?
I have the same actually :AICS long action and stiller tac300, .284 winch.
What minimum barrel length would you advise for a Tactical comp rifle shooting 175 or 180 gr bullets using VV powder?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

Coming back to this, I tried Hornady Custom 139gr SST .280 3000fps factory loads and found them to be far more accurate in both the R77 and R77V than I was able to achieve during my brief romance with load development for the two rifles. They are both zeroed with this most excellent load at 100yd with drop tables affixed to their stocks, and that, as they say, is that. According to Pejsa, that load is still doing close to 1300fps at 1Kyd. I'll run with it....

While I can't provide a lot of data on the .284 with specific bullets, I can relate that a deceased friend whom I admired greatly for his marksmanship (Distinguished Smallbore Expert both left- and right-handed) capability, which far exceeded anything I could ever hope to achieve, performed a 1000yd F Class test project using a Savage/Pac-Nor combination chambered in .284.

His conclusion was that while the .284 was a good choice, it wasn't a great one. Know in his capability and knowledge about making a rifle work, I'm inclined to trust his judgement.

Greg

 

[jp67]

Re: Anyone built a .284 repeater for comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coming back to this, I tried Hornady Custom 139gr SST .280 3000fps factory loads and found them to be far more accurate in both the R77 and R77V than I was able to achieve during my brief romance with load development for the two rifles. They are both zeroed with this most excellent load at 100yd with drop tables affixed to their stocks, and that, as they say, is that. According to Pejsa, that load is still doing close to 1300fps at 1Kyd. I'll run with it....

While I can't provide a lot of data on the .284 with specific bullets, I can relate that a deceased friend whom I admired greatly for his marksmanship (Distinguished Smallbore Expert both left- and right-handed) capability, which far exceeded anything I could ever hope to achieve, performed a 1000yd F Class test project using a Savage/Pac-Nor combination chambered in .284.

His conclusion was that while the .284 was a good choice, it wasn't a great one. Know in his capability and knowledge about making a rifle work, I'm inclined to trust his judgement.

Greg </div></div>

So what caliber would you suggest instead of the .284 winchester?