Rifle Scopes Anyone else feel the next big thing will be digital?

[The King]

Looking at the ATN 4k, i can’t help but think the next thing is going to be a high quality digital setup.

Imagine kestrel link with tie ins to the scope, video shot spotting, sniper/spotter calls showing up in the scope, safran terrapin integration, weather in the optic, a stick on chamber temp probe...lots of interesting stuff.

 

[Glassaholic]

Sig is starting to do integration similar to this which I think will be the best integration we've seen so far, not too hip on their scopes that currently have the integration, but if the Tango 6 line starts to get some of these updates it might make it pretty interesting. Revic has been out over a year now which offers most of this, Swarovski has their DS, Schmidt & Bender did their "Digital" versions. I agree, having information right in the scope from multiple sources would be a benefit, especially with a spotter.

 

[icu812]

I think your right. I can't imagine glass and mechanics getting much better than they are now. But its been on the horizon for a while I think and were starting to see the first few waves hit the shore.

 

[Glassaholic]

I can't imagine glass and mechanics getting much better than they are now.

It depends on what you mean by "getting much better", I think we'll continue to see some innovations and improvement in optical quality at lower price points. The best glass has always been packaged with high prices; however, better glass has continued to make its way into lower priced optics and that's where I see the competition getting steadily more fierce. The consumer is always looking for the best bang for the buck. I believe this is part of the success of the Vortex Razor Gen II series, it is one of the few scopes that can compete with what would be consider tier one or top tier riflescopes but at a price point considerably less.

My big concern with digital is for manufacturers to cut corners in other areas to provide flashy new features, and by cutting corners I foresee a degradation in optical quality in order to maintain a particular price point.

Also, OP (@The King) maybe it would be good for you to define what you mean by digital, I had originally assumed you meant for HUD type integration with Bluetooth technology like what Revic and S&B have done, but now I'm thinking you might actually be thinking of a digital sensor much like what we see with DSLR's and other digital imaging devices.

 

[The King]

Technically the price/quality point these days is flipped - it should be cheaper to make a very capable digital scope than a similar optical one.

The problem is that the only company taking it seriously - and by this I mean all digital - is ATN. And ATN isn't the banner carrier for a great optic...

That said, imagine a similar design to the ATN but made by Nightforce.

 

[Glassaholic]

Technically the price/quality point these days is flipped - it should be cheaper to make a very capable digital scope than a similar optical one.

I don't think I would agree with you as any digital sensor needs an optical lens system to transmit the light to the sensor and any digital sensor within a scope design is going to add cost to the overall design, it's not just a matter of throwing a digital sensor into an existing scope, the scope would have to be completely redesigned which is also going to add expense. Can you utilize a "digital zoom" yes, but again your throwing away quality for convenience as digital zooms are not nearly as good as optical zooms because IQ degrades, similar to upsizing a jpeg in Photoshop. But there are other benefits that digital sensors can bring to a scope that optical scopes can't or have a difficult time offering, I've already mentioned low light situations, but also enhanced contrast, game identification, ranging, bluetooth integration, etc. But also realize that the more electronics you add to the system the more susceptible it may be to software errors, breakage, etc. For these reasons I do not see digital sensors in scopes taking a big foothold anytime soon, but then again, I did not foresee DSLR's surpassing the quality of film as quickly as they did so who knows...

 

[W54/XM-388]

"Digital Zoom" is pretty much always junk compared to real optical zoom, especially if you actually need to resolve fine details
Like the thermals that have "Digital Zoom", compare that to an actual 8x lens for a high end thermal that costs more than the whole thermal setups with the "Digital" stuff.

I'm sure the coming high end stuff will be chock full of "Digital" and "intelligent" smarts, however I have reasons for wanting the long term stuff that I plan to have my whole life & pass on & possibly use when times are hard, to be as much manual without needing software or electronics. Once things start becoming "software defined", basically you no longer own the functions of your device.

So you are out at the range with your super setup & there is no data signal & now your scope decides it needs to verify the software licence for it's features and locks you out because it hadn't phoned home in the past month....

10 years later will there still be any support for that setup without very expensive "upgrades" or forcing you to a new model?

 

[Just Macca]

I think what the OP is saying is; It would be cool to see a digital night vision scope produced by NF/Vortex/Schmidt, that offers excellent night ability and day ability in the one unit.

 

[MarinePMI]

It's already being done (the company I work for makes them). It's just not for sale to civilians...yet. (And it will probably never be available from our company; corporate policy. They don't want the bad publicity from anti-gun, Sierra Club and PETA folks.)

Hell, just last week I was looking through helmet mounted hybrid (thermal/IR) NV that has a HUD built in that links to the weapon hybrid NV sight with integral LRF and ballistic comp). It provides a day/night sight that is impervious to smoke, fog etc....

 

[wigwamitus]

I agree "it" is already being done. Thermal is digital. And we have high quality thermal and medium quality thermal and low quality thermal.

High quality - like LWTS or BAE OASYS, etc. i.e. the military thermals

Medium quality - like the Trijicon thermals

Low quality - like the pulsars or FLIR/Armasight commercial units

But until the military flips over on digital NV and "high" or even "medium" quality starts to exist, it will remain a chinese market ... with lots of apparent "bells and whistles" ... as the trade off for low cost ... i.e. aiming at the entry/mass market.

IMHO, that is ...

 

[MarinePMI]

I agree "it" is already being done. Thermal is digital. And we have high quality thermal and medium quality thermal and low quality thermal.

High quality - like LWTS or BAE OASYS, etc. i.e. the military thermals

Medium quality - like the Trijicon thermals

Low quality - like the pulsars or FLIR/Armasight commercial units

But until the military flips over on digital NV and "high" or even "medium" quality starts to exist, it will remain a chinese market ... with lots of apparent "bells and whistles" ... as the trade off for low cost ... i.e. aiming at the entry/mass market.

IMHO, that is ...

Ding, ding, ding...concur.

 

[wigwamitus]

Oh and below the current crop of "low quality" thermals, like pulsar and FLIR/Armasight commercial (which are hunting usable) ... there are the Chinese units, like the newer ATN thermals, which I would rate as "toyz" and "not hunting usable ... that is ... unless they improved significantly this week. I had one of the "gen3" ATN thermals a while back (see review in my practicing thread) and it was an unfinished thing ... no image at all on black hot, regardless of any adjustments made. Definitely not something I would take hunting.

Not to completely bash ATN, I have one of the ancient ODIN 1x 17mm 320(30) and still use it every day, as either a helmet mountable thermal spotter or on my .22LR(16) as a ratter. But the new two generations of thermal, ,the chinese ones with all the bells and whistles have not proven to be "ready for hunting" so far in my experience.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Yes. Been in Electronics and Optics my whole Life - Analog scopes will give way to digital soon with a combination of great glass and electronic tricks...just like we are seeing with top end Broadcast Quality cameras.

Used to be you needed and $18000 lens and a cam the size of a breadbox. No more - scopes will follow as soon as the manufacturers have recovered R&D on the latest glass only optics. Then they will switch to Digital or get left behind by Asian imports that do more for much less.

VooDoo

 

[rtpguy]

Have worked in tech forever, and think there are a lot of things that COULD be done, some of which probably will be, but I do think rifle optics have some special considerations.

For those throwing big $ at replacing optics yearly, perhaps it won't matter, but consider how often most of us replace our 'smart' phones vs how long most/many people continue to use a rifle or an optic. The same applies to laptops, DSLRs and many other electronic devices; I'd be even more careful at the 'beginning' of seeing more electronic convergence.

It's also interesting to note how many push back on 'smart' guns/triggers - but not optics?

Note that even DSLRs have most of the 'smarts' in the body, which are still somewhat expensive, but de-coupled from the lenses (other than the focus motors and sometimes stabilization for some vendors), so what you're replacing is the sensor and the 'smarts,' not the optics. DSLRs are somewhat of a stable market today but I'd be willing to bet quite a few 'smart' optics will come out without a plan of any kind to improve or upgrade over time, and at the prices some of them will come out at, I'm not sure I'm 'in' until things mature.

Personally, it would be great to have 3 things done in a modular way:
1. a display overlay over the reticle or portions thereof. Needs to be unobtrusive/invisible when not active, or for when power is lost or it breaks.
2. Upgradeable 'smarts' - probably using the optic itself for a heat sink of sorts, potted/coated circuits damned near impervious to shock.
3. A replaceable comms module, whether it's bluetooth (would need to look into security of whatever is used), enabling various modules to be paired to it.

2. and 3. might well be a single 'module' exposed how illumination controls typically are, and sat under the parallax housing. Pair to a kestrel, rail mount rangefinder, and you can overlay range and a hit probability or 'firing solution' via the display overlay in the reticle view. De-couple the ability to integration from what will be aging but hopefully external sensors that can be upgraded at less $ over time.

What I expect to see instead are a bunch of optics coming out that self-obsolete themselves within years, and while hopefully they remain usable manual optics, will have no path to keep the electronics and/or sensors up to date. Meh. But we'll see.

 

[Glassaholic]

Note that even DSLRs have most of the 'smarts' in the body, which are still somewhat expensive, but de-coupled from the lenses (other than the focus motors and sometimes stabilization for some vendors), so what you're replacing is the sensor and the 'smarts,' not the optics. DSLRs are somewhat of a stable market today but I'd be willing to bet quite a few 'smart' optics will come out without a plan of any kind to improve or upgrade over time, and at the prices some of them will come out at, I'm not sure I'm 'in' until things mature.

I wonder if there's not opportunity here, not for digital to be built into the scope but as an add on, similar to how you mention a DSLR works with a standard lens, the unit would have a sensor and a screen and be able to connect via BT, etc. and it mounts to the ocular, this way it can be used with most any scope on the market today.

 

[jakelly]

I don’t believe digital will be big... ever. The hunting market doesn’t want it and cheap rules the roost. We’re talking about a very small percentage of a small subsect, of the shooting sports, that is itself showing a definite trend and preference for cheaper goods.

 

[TorF]

I just want a "hiend" scope that can download reticles of my own design from Visio on my PC.

 

[Hairy Biker]

and what sort of distances, competitions, activities are we talking about this stuff for?

Most people struggle to shoot at 500m, most hunting ranges from 10m to 80m on average.

Or are we actually talking about marketing to the Call of Duty generation, who have grown up with this virtual view of shooting, and this provide the gateway for them to do it for real?

 

[benzy2]

If you don’t think there is a market, go to YouTube and see how many through the scope videos exist. See how many ATN X-sight videos exist. The current generation wants video capture. They pay for video capture. Leupold is getting into thermal, Burris has the Eliminator, etc. It’s coming. Maybe slowly, but it’s coming. With a 4k sensor, a decent processor, live streaming and video recording, on the fly adjustable reticle, customizable reticles, digital zoom (doesn’t go dark like optical zoom but with enough sensor size it stays usable), night compatibility, etc. There are simply too many benefits for the big guys not to get involved at some point. I don’t think it will replace what we have now in my lifetime, but I certainly think there is a huge market in the digital world for a digital sight. Somebody with market presence that sells a well made and polished finished product will make a good deal of money.

 

[shoobe01]

I agree "it" is already being done...
...But until the military flips over on digital NV and "high" or even "medium" quality starts to exist, it will remain a chinese market ... with lots of apparent "bells and whistles" ... as the trade off for low cost ... i.e. aiming at the entry/mass market.

Are we not just now there? Fusion is the way for current aircraft systems, merging multiple distributed sensors from different bands. Yes, it's a big thing of many boxes and cables, but at least one strain of RDSs evolved from aircraft HUDs and were built by avionic makers.

The PSQ-20 ENGV/SENGV is a fusion monocular, II and TI. A big one, but the tech is new. It'll come down.

FWS-I will work with a yet-to-be-seen ENGV-3 which is fully digital; it will use this capability to use wireless links between sensors, so you can do stuff like point an MG sight from your monocular, without ever getting your head behind the gun.

This first stuff will be clunky, but just in the last decade or so, the smart scopes that were on OICW took a big diet by the time it was the same basic functions on XM25. Soon, it'll be entirely reasonable size, then we wait for cost to come down enough people like @wigwamitus buy two, and the consumer market opens up.

But I'd say that much of the gun market is hidebound so it'll be the next generation. At least 10 years before there are serious users of digital scopes in e.g. hunts, more than that before most guides don't ban them, etc.

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, to me we are more than "just" there, since thermal is already digital, just in a different "band" as you say

 

[Killswitch Engage]

after spending alot of time using thermal weapon sights which are digital devices in terms of reticle and rear image display along with using many of the new digital scopes... it will be a long time before i fully trust a digital optic in terms of holding and retaining zero along with any terms of dialing data on it. it may come but right now they just arent robust and repatable enough for precision work

what i would rather see is a 4k processor in the rear occular of the optic letting you video while retaining the true mechanical function of the optic.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

When digital optics take all the skill out of shooting and the only margin of error is how steady the shooter can hold the gun, long range shooting won't be much fun anymore.

If it ever happens I hope the devices are banned from competition. The point of LR shooting is a personal challenge and honing your skills. A rifle that basically shoots itself is like buying a self driving vehicle for track days, GAY.

Personally the only digital optic that I have any use for is thermal and thats for the purpose of detection and eradication, not shooting as a hobby.

 

[wigwamitus]

For actual "scopes" I agree and I like to "confirm" zero on even the Mk3 60mm before doing a serious shoot. But the digial thermal clipon BAE UTC-x seems to have no issue doing long distance IPSC-D steel out to 900yds off like .300WM(24) with 220gr SMK. There are no adjustments needed or possible with the UTC-x, it is a real clipon, just like the PVS-30, even though it (the UTC-x) is "digital".

 

[mahmoud]

This is was almost 10 years ago so maybe it's mostly fixed. When you are a scout sniper one of the biggest thing is staying quiet. They gave us this new thermal sight when you turned it on it sounded like a damn server shooting out hot air trying to cool all the electronics. So we didn't use it unless we were with regular grunts and even then we had LAR with 10 times better thermals anyways.

But one of the best things we had was digital. Stabilizing binos holy shit was that money we loved those things.

 

[CANTHITSH!T]

Looking at the ATN 4k, i can’t help but think the next thing is going to be a high quality digital setup.

Imagine kestrel link with tie ins to the scope, video shot spotting, sniper/spotter calls showing up in the scope, safran terrapin integration, weather in the optic, a stick on chamber temp probe...lots of interesting stuff.

Those types of systems already exist and have for many years.

 

[rtpguy]

I wonder if there's not opportunity here, not for digital to be built into the scope but as an add on, similar to how you mention a DSLR works with a standard lens, the unit would have a sensor and a screen and be able to connect via BT, etc. and it mounts to the ocular, this way it can be used with most any scope on the market today.

This is what I'm hoping for, but I think it takes a while for the market to mature to get there.
As pointed out by KSE, and indirectly by others, building an 'all in one' for mil or high civilian $$$$ nets repeat business. How many have jumped to latest night vision/thermals in the hopes of 'this one will be better'? High cost and not exactly true 'state of the art' for most civvie units.

Of course, I think once someone does it modularly well (in civilian price ranges, even if high), if it does well and stirs the pot, I expect competition to kick in and we'll see some real strides closer to when e.g. Apple entered the 'smartphone market' vs rehashed nearly static tech. Just hard to say 'when' until the 'first' is out there and sees traction (maybe Sig and Revic are the start?)

after spending alot of time using thermal weapon sights which are digital devices in terms of reticle and rear image display along with using many of the new digital scopes... it will be a long time before i fully trust a digital optic in terms of holding and retaining zero along with any terms of dialing data on it. it may come but right now they just arent robust and repatable enough for precision work

what i would rather see is a 4k processor in the rear occular of the optic letting you video while retaining the true mechanical function of the optic.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I'd like to add that Electronics/Digital processing in video or Optics realm is in it's infancy. It's not ever going to back up towards polished precision glass. The Way forward will be towards sensors that are of a finer and finer resolution until the electronic sensor surpasses polished precision glass. It's not there yet but when it gets there the price will fall until any optics manufacturer that does not engage will be out of business post haste..

Like digital cameras, the resolution will jump every year and the price will fall every year. It's not going away. Precision glass is over...it's a matter of time. The future is digital electronic optical sensors and the next break thru optic will be electronic. Until then the price of precision glass will continue to fall as it becomes obsolete.

Not yet. But eventually.

VooDoo

 

[shoobe01]

... It's not ever going to back up towards polished precision glass. The Way forward will be towards sensors that are of a finer and finer resolution until the electronic sensor surpasses polished precision glass...

One of the big things in lower end thermals (how SEEK, et al can make their price point) was plastic lenses. Those will get better and better, and totally different manufacturing will, I also believe, get us to the functional equivalent of something superior to great ground glass.

My prediction: distributed apertures. Imagine a helmet with no [apparent] NOD hanging off it, just a bunch of tiny sensors all around the helmet that get integrated, processed, and sent to an eyepiece.

 

[The King]

This statement is quite true it’s more about what can the human eye see.

An all glass light path with theoretically perfect glass has infinite resolution.

However, we can’t make perfect glass. Look at a resolution chart in scope testing and realize we only get so tall while trying to ride the perfect ride.

At some point, due to the imperfection of the glass lenses involved, a 5 element scope with a digital core will outperform a 13 element traditional optic.

if that outperformance overlaps with the resolving power of the human eye than the digital scope will be better.

Hell, a digital scope with a sensor that is 4x more dense than practical human eye resolution could achieve a 4x digital zoom that had no fading of image quality.

i think many of us primarily have experienced digital scopes through the thermals - and those suck bad and hard compared to a world class 4k sensor.

Good thermals usually do 640x480. 4k has 8.2 million pixels. The thermal has 300k. so you could zoom in a 4k to almost 30x before it looked as crappy as a 640 thermal on 1x.

I'd like to add that Electronics/Digital processing in video or Optics realm is in it's infancy. It's not ever going to back up towards polished precision glass. The Way forward will be towards sensors that are of a finer and finer resolution until the electronic sensor surpasses polished precision glass. It's not there yet but when it gets there the price will fall until any optics manufacturer that does not engage will be out of business post haste..

Like digital cameras, the resolution will jump every year and the price will fall every year. It's not going away. Precision glass is over...it's a matter of time. The future is digital electronic optical sensors and the next break thru optic will be electronic. Until then the price of precision glass will continue to fall as it becomes obsolete.

Not yet. But eventually.

VooDoo

 

[oakfig]

I just want voice activated zoom.... ?

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Auto Focus, Auto Aperture. Mmmmmmm.....

VooDoo

 

[Prime8]

So long as I have my pic rail mounted cup holder, I'm good!

 

[shoobe01]

Auto Focus, Auto Aperture. Mmmmmmm.....

VooDoo

Auto focus (or some wide depth of field trickery at least) is one of my biggest hopes. Mussing with focus on night vision is the only part where they don't seem at all magical.