Applied Ballistics Weapons Division

[ELR researcher]

Applied Ballistics Weapons Division

---

https://www.facebook.com/AppliedBallisticsLLC/

http://appliedballisticsweaponsdivision.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zegjNaSnXo

 

[Jeffd]

Interesting!

 

[Rhyno]

I remember just a year or so ago when The Applied Ballistics guys were claiming that Hornady could not do those type of things with that same exact (I believe) radar unit, and that their sonic testing was better.

And now they’re going to use it to sell people rifles, and do what they said couldn’t be done.

 

[LastShot300]

Around $19K for just a "tuned" custom setup?

 

[LastShot300]

I remember just a year or so ago when The Applied Ballistics guys were claiming that Hornady could not do those type of things with that same exact (I believe) radar unit, and that their sonic testing was better.

And now they’re going to use it to sell people rifles, and do what they said couldn’t be done.

You read my mind sir! you know, times changes everything...and marketing hype is no longer "applied" LOL

And for how many loads will they supply the tuned data and ammo?

 

[jbailey]

This takes all the fun out of solving for this stuff yourself! And that price point is just insane. A fool and his money, so easily parted...

 

[Jeffd]

Around $19K for just a "tuned" custom setup?

Where did you get the pricing info?

 

[jbailey]

I remember just a year or so ago when The Applied Ballistics guys were claiming that Hornady could not do those type of things with that same exact (I believe) radar unit, and that their sonic testing was better.

And now they’re going to use it to sell people rifles, and do what they said couldn’t be done.

Rhyno-
Is this the piece that you are referencing about the AB guys going after the Hornady process?
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Truth In Performance/Hornady4DOF.pdf

I have enjoyed reading both points of view here - AB and Hornady. Think we the shooters are getting value from both, i.e. they are both pushing each other to develop better products and serves.

 

[LastShot300]

Where did you get the pricing info?

From several AB posts where guys asked about.

 

[mitch260]

I remember just a year or so ago when The Applied Ballistics guys were claiming that Hornady could not do those type of things with that same exact (I believe) radar unit, and that their sonic testing was better.

And now they’re going to use it to sell people rifles, and do what they said couldn’t be done.

We're not going to drag up old arguments, but that is a miss understanding of what was argued. Radar has been the best for tracking velocity decay, which is what we are using it for. Essentially to account for possible lot variations and rifle specific variation (which we don't expect to see many for many rifles with the same spec).

Some aspects may have been handled poorly in the past, but we are past that and I for one welcome competition and have come to appreciate the good, and challenges, that come from it.

 

[mitch260]

Around $19K for just a "tuned" custom setup?

More details and exact pricing coming soon, but once you understand everything that comes with this system, it will be obvious that the pricing is not crazy. I understand it sounds high, but there is a ton of high quality gear, and lots of time setting up this system.

The system includes much more than just a "tuned" custom rifle.

 

[LastShot300]

More details and exact pricing coming soon, but once you understand everything that comes with this system, it will be obvious that the pricing is not crazy. I understand it sounds high, but there is a ton of high quality gear in this system.

The system includes much more than just a "tuned" custom rifle.

All I have and commented upon comes from the video and posts made by AB, so to speak from the horse's mouth, thus my opinion so far. If later you change something, opinions can vary too. Anyway, how will you handle the loads? One load or several at user's choice?

 

[LastShot300]

Some aspects may have been handled poorly in the past, but we are past that and I for one welcome competition and have come to appreciate the good, and challenges, that come from it.

Good point in recognizing judgement errors. I hope it's now a lesson learned. +1

 

[Rhyno]

Rhyno-
Is this the piece that you are referencing about the AB guys going after the Hornady process?
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Truth In Performance/Hornady4DOF.pdf

I have enjoyed reading both points of view here - AB and Hornady. Think we the shooters are getting value from both, i.e. they are both pushing each other to develop better products and serves.

There were multiple forum topics as well across various sites (some on scout that are probably lost) where it was discussed to much greater lengths.

 

[mitch260]

All I have and commented upon comes from the video and posts made by AB, so to speak from the horse's mouth, thus my opinion so far. If later you change something, opinions can vary too. Anyway, how will you handle the loads? One load or several at user's choice?

This system comes with ammo, and we will be offering that ammo for sale as well. This load was developed specifically for this system and has an SD of 4, and has exhibited incredible precision out of this system.

We know this system isn't necessarily for everyone and will also be offering more conventional custom builds, we will release more info on that and how we will offer a broader range of rifle/ammo specific drag models.

 

[Rhyno]

We're not going to drag up old arguments, but that is a miss understanding of what was argued. Radar has been the best for tracking velocity decay, which is what we are using it for. Essentially to account for possible lot variations and rifle specific variation (which we don't expect to see many for many rifles with the same spec).

Some aspects may have been handled poorly in the past, but we are past that and I for one welcome competition and have come to appreciate the good, and challenges, that come from it.

A year ago you guys tried to discredit and belittle not only Hornady and Dave Emery by suggesting that they were unqualified, but you also attacked others who disagreed with you (Patagonia Ballistics comes to mind) along with saying that that radar unit cannot do what Hornady (and now you) claim to do with it.

But now that you’re trying to sell something to people it can do those things, and now you appreciate the good and challenges the come from it.

Lmao

 

[mitch260]

A year ago you guys tried to discredit and belittle not only Hornady and Dave Emery by suggesting that they were unqualified, but you also attacked others who disagreed with you (Patagonia Ballistics comes to mind) along with saying that that radar unit cannot do what Hornady (and now you) claim to do with it.

But now that you’re trying to sell something to people it can do those things, and now you appreciate the good and challenges the come from it.

Lmao

Last comment I will make on this subject, but the matter at hand were claims made that weren't necessarily true.

The overall goal was not to "belittle" anyone, but to speak to the realities on hand. No one questioned or said that Radar was not good at measuring velocity decay, that is true and has always been true. We aren't using it to do things that we said it couldn't do. We are using it to do the things it has always been able to do.

Again, I'm not going to say everything was handled properly, or that in hind sight it was the right decision to bring these concerns to the public light. At the end of the day, our goal is hitting targets and teaching others about the realities at hand when it comes to external ballistics, that is why you will see us on the range at matches.

The true mistake was engaging these discussions on Forums with many individuals who didn't understand exactly what we were trying to convey, and this is where things seemed to get out of hand, I'm not interested in doing that again.

I said it then and I'll say it again, I have no quarrel with Dave Emery or anyone on the Hornady ballistics team, and if they bring their solver out and use it effectively at an ELR match (beyond a systems transonic range to truly test the solver), I'd be the first one there to shake their hand and congratulate them. That hasn't changed. And I'm sure if we had sat down and had a ballistics conversation with Dave and their team, we would probably have been on the same page with most things.

And at the end of the day, if mistakes are made, you learn from them and move on. I have no interest in arguing these topics anymore, and I wish them the best of luck. My outlook on this is to move on and do what we think is best to improve our solver and our system. It is possible for people to grow and improve their outlook on things, and I understand and agree with the value in true competition and how it drives innovation in the market.

 

[Rhyno]

Last comment I will make on this subject, but the matter at hand were claims made that weren't necessarily true.




The overall goal was not to "belittle" anyone, but to speak to the realities on hand. No one questioned or said that Radar was not good at measuring velocity decay, that is true and has always been true. We aren't using it to do things that we said it couldn't do. We are using it to do the things it has always been able to do.




Again, I'm not going to say everything was handled properly, or that in hind sight it was the right decision to bring these concerns to the public light. At the end of the day, our goal is hitting targets and teaching others about the realities at hand when it comes to external ballistics, that is why you will see us on the range at matches.




The true mistake was engaging these discussions on Forums with many individuals who didn't understand exactly what we were trying to convey, and this is where things seemed to get out of hand, I'm not interested in doing that again.




I said it then and I'll say it again, I have no quarrel with Dave Emery or anyone on the Hornady ballistics team, and if they bring their solver out and use it effectively at an ELR match (beyond a systems transonic range to truly test the solver), I'd be the first one there to shake their hand and congratulate them. That hasn't changed. And I'm sure if we had sat down and had a ballistics conversation with Dave and their team, we would probably have been on the same page with most things.




And at the end of the day, if mistakes are made, you learn from them and move on. I have no interest in arguing these topics anymore, and I wish them the best of luck. My outlook on this is to move on and do what we think is best to improve our solver and our system. It is possible for people to grow and improve their outlook on things, and I understand and agree with the value in true competition and how it drives innovation in the market.

You seemed to want to convey that your product was better.




Remember Mitch it was you and your team that chose to pursue the direction you guys took last year (and before that). No one asked you too (as far as I’m aware) and you guys even started threads in forums where no body (as far as I could tell) was discussing Hornady previously.







“However, that can definitely be the case, depends on how knowledgeable the people running that 6 figure system are. In a prefect world, maybe, but barely, to the extent that its a moot point really. It is a lot more difficult to derive accurate results from that complex system than the system AB uses. We can attain very accurate data relatively easily and is why we have a large database of very accurate drag curves.




But all of that is beside the point. Our data with our system is already pretty much as accurate as with the doppler.“




If your system was so great before hand, why is the Doppler radar system so prominently displayed now?




“Long story short, practically the radar isn't any more accurate than the system AB uses.”




I bet you’ve changed your tune on that.

 

[TripleBull]

Must suck to hate on AB after they just won their 2nd Ko2M in a row.

 

[Black max]

Must suck to hate on AB after they just won their 2nd Ko2M in a row.

Who gives a shit? Doesn't change the fact that their a bunch of arrogant, know it all douche bags... Their solver sucks ass as well!

 

[Clearlight]

Actions speak louder than words . AB have the results under competition
conditions . Rival companies have equal opportunity to put their skills
and products on the line and prove their worth .

My my most recent rifle owes me over 8k including optic . Purchased about
$ 2k worth of components to make ammo for it , including custom Newlon
and Forster dies . RF , Kestrel , GPS , cases and other crap is another $6k .
Thats $ 16k with no labour costs included to smith the rifle or make the ammo .

ELR is not a poor mans sport . Some SF teams , if you include a Vector 23 and
wind Lidar unit are running $150k plus worth of toys .

 

[Rhyno]

Must suck to hate on AB after they just won their 2nd Ko2M in a row.

it does suck, I liked AB, I liked using their products, I liked reading their books, I was planning on purchasing more of their stuff (all the books, a kestrel, their Garmin recently until this came up) and then they came out and acted like a bunch of high school eliteist arrogant children.

the thing is, they never had to do any of it. All they had to do was let the results speak for themselves, instead they put out some stupid bullshit memo (the first draft of which included wrong information that they had to go back and correct) then proceeded to attack a competing company and the people employed there. AB “Dispelling marketing hype” present by AB’s Marketting team.

AB made it hard for me to give them my money, so I no longer give them my money.

AB went out of their way to attack another company, when all they had to do was wait and let their porduct speak for itself.

 

[Rhyno]

So Mitch, let’s leave most of what happened last year alone from this point on.

Explain to me why you decided to go with Doppler for this instead of your sonic system, which you’ve claimed in the past to be just as accurate and easy/faster to use?

Further, because you previously claimed that the radar is only as good as the people using it, can you explain how in less then a year you guys have figured the system out well enough to use it to sell someone a system which relies on it?

 

[jbailey]

ELR is not a poor mans sport . Some SF teams , if you include a Vector 23 and
wind Lidar unit are running $150k plus worth of toys .

Agreed on the not a poor man's sport. But this solution from AB takes so much fun (and skill) out of it. Put your $20k down and all you need to do is show up and pull trigger? No thanks.

RE SF teams. Cost of the kit is nothing, not even a rounding error. Just getting those boys to an FFP costs us tax payers tens of millions of $'s, so who gives a f*ck what the rifle/ballistic solver/optics cost. The better gear they have, the less of a chance our enemies will win. Spend away there. But ELR shooting ain't the same. Kind of takes the fun away when some rich guy can show up with the heavy expensive equipment but not a lot of skill and dust all the poor guys. I'm a rich guy so I'm not talking about this from a Communist view point.

Its cool that AB is offering this, clearly there is a demand. Just bitching about the direction of the sport.

 

[mitch260]

So Mitch, let’s leave most of what happened last year alone from this point on.

Explain to me why you decided to go with Doppler for this instead of your sonic system, which you’ve claimed in the past to be just as accurate and easy/faster to use?

Further, because you previously claimed that the radar is only as good as the people using it, can you explain how in less then a year you guys have figured the system out well enough to use it to sell someone a system which relies on it?

Doppler radar doesn't offer any significant increase in accuracy in regards to the CDMs over our previous method. We (and many others) use our CDMs to get spot on out to 2+ miles with out any truing, any increase in accuracy over that is very minimal. What it does do is allow us to test things much quicker and more efficiently. AB is growing so fast we bought a tool to increase our efficiency.

Also to clarify, the sonic system by itself isn't physically faster to use than the radar, it does require more set up in the field than a radar, if I recall correctly, the discussion was that the way we developed CDMs (our "system") with that data was quicker than Hornady's process of developing CDMs (their "system") for their 4DOF. The radar is quicker to use in the field as far as collecting the raw data from a given shot goes.

Just for clarification, we haven't made any claims of increased accuracy with the Doppler, we just stated we were using it.

Radar is not new to us, Bryan especially. I'm not going to go into details on a public forum, but there are many ways to misuse a Radar, and many ways to increase it's effectiveness. I never intended to say that Hornady couldn't or wasn't using the Radar correctly, the point which may have been mis-conveyed or mis understood, was that just saying the word Radar doesn't make it extremely accurate, and that there is detail in using one effectively. You don't just buy a $100,000+ radar and automatically get perfect results from it.

The system doesn't rely on radar, we could offer it effectively with the acoustic system, we would just have more time invest in testing each system and we were already getting the Radar anyway.

 

[mitch260]

Agreed on the not a poor man's sport. But this solution from AB takes so much fun (and skill) out of it. Put your $20k down and all you need to do is show up and pull trigger? No thanks.

RE SF teams. Cost of the kit is nothing, not even a rounding error. Just getting those boys to an FFP costs us tax payers tens of millions of $'s, so who gives a f*ck what the rifle/ballistic solver/optics cost. The better gear they have, the less of a chance our enemies will win. Spend away there. But ELR shooting ain't the same. Kind of takes the fun away when some rich guy can show up with the heavy expensive equipment but not a lot of skill and dust all the poor guys. I'm a rich guy so I'm not talking about this from a Communist view point.

Its cool that AB is offering this, clearly there is a demand. Just bitching about the direction of the sport.

As someone who thoroughly enjoys things like developing this system, I can certainly understand this perspective, obviously this system isn't for everyone.

We will still be offering more conventional custom builds, but hope to speed up the process so you don't have 6 month to a year invested just in waiting for your rifle.

 

[LastShot300]

Doppler radar doesn't offer any significant increase in accuracy in regards to the CDMs over our previous method. We (and many others) use our CDMs to get spot on out to 2+ miles with out any truing, any increase in accuracy over that is very minimal. What it does do is allow us to test things much quicker and more efficiently. AB is growing so fast we bought a tool to increase our efficiency.

Also to clarify, the sonic system by itself isn't physically faster to use than the radar, it does require more set up in the field than a radar, if I recall correctly, the discussion was that the way we developed CDMs (our "system") with that data was quicker than Hornady's process of developing CDMs (their "system") for their 4DOF. The radar is quicker to use in the field as far as collecting the raw data from a given shot goes.

Just for clarification, we haven't made any claims of increased accuracy with the Doppler, we just stated we were using it.

Radar is not new to us, Bryan especially. I'm not going to go into details on a public forum, but there are many ways to misuse a Radar, and many ways to increase it's effectiveness. I never intended to say that Hornady couldn't or wasn't using the Radar correctly, the point which may have been mis-conveyed or mis understood, was that just saying the word Radar doesn't make it extremely accurate, and that there is detail in using one effectively. You don't just buy a $100,000+ radar and automatically get perfect results from it.

The system doesn't rely on radar, we could offer it effectively with the acoustic system, we would just have more time invest in testing each system and we were already getting the Radar anyway.

Let me be curious about radar and acoustic chrono. That radar's specific model doesn't go farther than 1000/1500 yards under perfect conditions and the "right" bullet size. Acoustic, according to Bryan's book, was used to measure data up to 600 yards IIRC

So, how can you effectively collect data to build up an specific profile (Cd/Mach) up to 2500 yards as the video claims?

Are you just going to extrapolate the data? Granted, for a high-performance cartridge like the Cheytac's transonic passage is near 2000 yards or better...but what happens after that?

If the system does not rely on radar data, why it's so boldly displayed?

Finally, and if you don't mind, how come you got first hits over two miles with no trued/tweaked data? First time I hear of such thing because the KO2M and other events did not show such extremely favorable hit ratios.

Please can you elaborate? I'm just trying to get accurate statements from the experts themselves.

 

[jbailey]

So, how can you effectively collect data to build up an specific profile (Cd/Mach) up to 2500 yards as the video claims?

What if you started the bullet at a slower MV - for example, if you know the bullet is going 1200fps at 2200 yds, start her at 2200fps at muzzle instead of 3000fps, then capture the 1200fps speed CD at 1000yds instead of 2200 yds. This is rough math, but illustrates a potential solution.

 

[Rhyno]

LastShot300, I believe when he said it doesn’t rely on radar he meant that they could use the accoustic equipment they’ve used only that the radar is easier which is why they chose to use it. They’ve discussed in the past that they are able to use the accoustic equipment into subsonic levels.

 

[TripleBull]

Their solver sucks ass as well!

No doubt. I hear they used an abacus and three dice for Ko2M.

 

[Jeffvn]

Mitch

How much ammo is included in the System? The information states the Ammo is tuned for the rifle system. Does that mean it is customized for that rifle, or that it was tested on a version of that rifle (same barrel length, same bullet, same lot of the same powder, same velocity).

Jeffvn

 

[Jeffd]

Mitch

How much ammo is included in the System? The information states the Ammo is tuned for the rifle system. Does that mean it is customized for that rifle, or that it was tested on a version of that rifle (same barrel length, same bullet, same lot of the same powder, same velocity).

Jeffvn

Only 100 rounds as I understand it.

 

[LastShot300]

When untuned curves start working with a standard 100 zero then dead on at 300, 900, 1500, 2k, etc., when the programs stop crashing, when they are more user friendly, and when AB starts listening, I'll start listening.

It is very important to understand that the way some of these contests are set up, they are just square ranges, it doesn't it really translate into easy to use out of the box curves. Using the I shot better than you, doesn't mean the product works as marketed... it means Marketing is working as they intended.

Marketing is obviously King.. but how far down that rabbit hole do we go.. Extended Range Shooting (ELR) // hum lets rebrand it to AB's EXTREME Range Shooting. Sad really.

Edited to add rant over-

+1 cannot agree more.

 

[Rhyno]

When untuned curves start working with a standard 100 zero then dead on at 300, 900, 1500, 2k, etc., when the programs stop crashing, when they are more user friendly, and when AB starts listening, I'll start listening.




It is very important to understand that the way some of these contests are set up, they are just square ranges, it doesn't it really translate into easy to use out of the box curves. Using the I shot better than you, doesn't mean the product works as marketed... it means Marketing is working as they intended.




AB Listening? As the most recent example: 701 Garmin target page - 10 targets only, range distances only for names, it is just glorified range card.. Not really good for a terrain map were the names for landmarks are more important than distances; nor for a match were you might have 5-10 stages with 5-8 targets each... DOF from FFP independent from general Wind?? No, these very basic mistakes would not even begin to happen for mil or civi if they listened. Of course, FFS has understood the need for years and even cheap new comers listening to shooter like GeoBallistics understands the need for terrain mapping or Stage Cards.




Marketing is obviously King.. but how far down that rabbit hole do we go.. Extended Range Shooting (ELR) // hum lets rebrand it to AB's EXTREME Range Shooting. Sad really.




Edited to add rant over-

That was one of the issues last year as well at the first KO2M and when AB really started to use it as an example of their greatness. Except they didn’t tell you that they literally came up with the custom drag curve they used for that match using their rifles in the days before the match at the location the match took place. (IIRC)




That’s not impressive to me, and it represents something that (until now when they’re offering it to others to buy to an extent) is not what anyone else who is using their software would be capable of doing.




What would be more impressive is if some random guy who doesn’t have the software customized to his equipment would win KO2M using AB, even more if he just got AB that morning grabbed a custom drag curve with it and did absolutely no truing before hand, or minimal tuning. When that happens I’ll be impressed. And I’m not sure that’s possible.

 

[Clearlight]

I’m unlikely to even travel to the US to enter KO2M , let alone win
it , but the CDM,s are working great for me . The last time I had 2
days off in a row ( I work 7 days and several nights a week ) we got
to set a target at 2750 , in rain fog and wind gusts up to 30 mph .

Did a fresh install of new AB IOS version in a country hotel on the
way to location , rebuilding profiles from screen shots of old version .
Bought CDM for 215 Berger for use in my 300 Norma and also for
140 Hybrid in my x47’s , did all this while having a drink and lunch :
very easy despite me being on the dark side of 50 y o and not really
tech savvy .

First shot with velocity adjusted in AB for CCB , and pressure and temp data
from a $100 Casio watch , was bang on for elevation at 2750 . Subsequent
shots were also within 1 meter for elevation , with velocity adjusted for each to
usual average within 3 shots . ( say approx 1/3 MOA ) . Unrealistic to
expect any better in the snotty wind that day , as anyone who shoots that
far regularly will appreciate . I was running the numbers for a well known
forum member here on the gun , who I won’t mention without permission .

Guess I’m just one lucky ‘ random guy ‘ . Rhyno , how did AB develop a
drag model the days before the KO2M without their new Doppler unit , or
Oehler 88 lab system on site ? I guess they must have reverse engineered
some data from try dope just like the rest of us do .....

 

[IanHusaberg]

Who gives a shit? Doesn't change the fact that their a bunch of arrogant, know it all douche bags... Their solver sucks ass as well!

Those are mighty strong words.

 

[TripleBull]

Guess I’m just one lucky ‘ random guy ‘ . Rhyno , how did AB develop a
drag model the days before the KO2M without their new Doppler unit , or
Oehler 88 lab system on site ? I guess they must have reverse engineered
some data from try dope just like the rest of us do .....

Haters gonna hate on AB, but few hate those that finish last.

Too bad you can't make it over for the next Ko2M. AB needs some lucky competition.

 

[Rhyno]

I’m unlikely to even travel to the US to enter KO2M , let alone win
it , but the CDM,s are working great for me . The last time I had 2
days off in a row ( I work 7 days and several nights a week ) we got
to set a target at 2750 , in rain fog and wind gusts up to 30 mph .

Did a fresh install of new AB IOS version in a country hotel on the
way to location , rebuilding profiles from screen shots of old version .
Bought CDM for 215 Berger for use in my 300 Norma and also for
140 Hybrid in my x47’s , did all this while having a drink and lunch :
very easy despite me being on the dark side of 50 y o and not really
tech savvy .

First shot with velocity adjusted in AB for CCB , and pressure and temp data
from a $100 Casio watch , was bang on for elevation at 2750 . Subsequent
shots were also within 1 meter for elevation , with velocity adjusted for each to
usual average within 3 shots . ( say approx 1/3 MOA ) . Unrealistic to
expect any better in the snotty wind that day , as anyone who shoots that
far regularly will appreciate . I was running the numbers for a well known
forum member here on the gun , who I won’t mention without permission .

Guess I’m just one lucky ‘ random guy ‘ . Rhyno , how did AB develop a
drag model the days before the KO2M without their new Doppler unit , or
Oehler 88 lab system on site ? I guess they must have reverse engineered
some data from try dope just like the rest of us do .....

I’m unaware of how they did it, I just know from conversations a year ago that that is what they did. IIRC Doc said he put the Custom Drag Curve together for them the day before the match. Even if they didn’t do it at that match (which is not what I remeber but my memory is terrible) it was still done with their rifles and their loads, a true custom drag curve unavailable to anyone else at the time.

I’ve never had much success with AB when I was using it, when I was shooting out to 1200 yards TRASOL put me on target AB with a custom curve did not. It wasn’t off by much, and a larger target it would have hit but that didn’t matter, shooting in a corn field that time of year it was extremely difficult to spot a miss alone.

Now as soon as I trued it it was good for that day, but the way it trued everything never made sense, why would I adjust Velocity when I know what it is? This lead to misses at later times of the year where I would have to re-true everything again.

TRASOLs and Hornady’s approach seemed to be much better, but I haven’t been able to test it.

Thats Been my experience, and I have no reason to try it again.

also I’m unsure where you guys are getting the “Lucky” part from, as I don’t remember saying it.

 

[LastShot300]

Haters gonna hate on AB, but few hate those that finish last.

Too bad you can't make it over for the next Ko2M. AB needs some lucky competition.

I wonder why questioning AB, in good and valid terms, is translated, almost automatically, into HATE? Seems a little bit overreacted, isn't it?

Are we here witnessing the rise of some sort of religion? How come making questions or just having opposite views to AB "mantra" is presented as HATE?

Guys...AB "magic" is the same you may find in dozens of programs including many of them which are free, such as JBM and the like. I've made posts that without any tweaking, supports what I have said so many times. Not a single time was AB able to rebuttal me. Numbers don't lie, as simple as that.

KO2M proved so far that sheer luck, is still the King of the Hill...hit ratios don't lie either. This of course does not imply any demerit to their shooting and team skills, on the contrary.

C'mon, AB is doing their business, and I don't see where is the problem with making questions or objections. After all, AB is not doing a charity...unless, of course I missed something important lately.

 

[comanche91]

I ran the AB solver, not their applicatio but their licensed solver on another program and came in second this year's KO2M and did not true the custom curve. Albeit my velocity was jacked from day one. I brought out a brand new stock rifle and didn't realize the chrome lined bore would increase in velocy by 160fps. I re-chronoed that evening and held my own on day two. Struggled on a few targets due to wind but the solver had my elevation dead on all they way out. The math in the solver is solid as long as the data you feed it is true.

 

[TripleBull]

I wonder why questioning AB, in good and valid terms, is translated, almost automatically, into HATE? Seems a little bit overreacted, isn't it?

Are we here witnessing the rise of some sort of religion? How come making questions or just having opposite views to AB "mantra" is presented as HATE?

Guys...AB "magic" is the same you may find in dozens of programs including many of them which are free, such as JBM and the like. I've made posts that without any tweaking, supports what I have said so many times. Not a single time was AB able to rebuttal me. Numbers don't lie, as simple as that.

KO2M proved so far that sheer luck, is still the King of the Hill...hit ratios don't lie either. This of course does not imply any demerit to their shooting and team skills, on the contrary.

C'mon, AB is doing their business, and I don't see where is the problem with making questions or objections. After all, AB is not doing a charity...unless, of course I missed something important lately.

Bolded and capitalized... It's obvious you are mellow as fuck about AB. Yes, there's hate aplenty for AB.

I'm no AB fanboy, but go ahead and assume what you will. Their product has worked as well or better as any other I've tried. The thing is, the proof is in the pudding so someone needs to channel their hate into competing and beating them.

Religion? Are you preachin', brother? Sounding pretty dramatic and over-reacted. Just go beat their ass, then sell a product that shows how you did it. Easy, right?

 

[TripleBull]

Does anyone really believe that the winners of a match with rules like KO2M is won because of a ballistic solver and all first round hits without shooting intermediate distances first?

These are generally going to favor teams with the most horsepower and communication adjusting quickly and accurately all while reading wind. They are good shooters, with good equipment, the teams that best share and know the others dope, and the relative offsets between the guns/shooters, will have a better chance than those that do not.

The solver be it FFS CB or AB really has the least to do with it. Especially sense most the rounds did not spend a huge time wandering in bumpy air, due to the relatively high DA and larger calibers.

Coming back and spinning it might be the Marketing machine way.. but it is over the edge to me.

I think it all matters to some degree and agree with the team horsepower perspective. The value of the ballistic solver coupled to accurate range estimation and the initial wind call is that an effective solution will get you closer on the first shot. This allows that team horsepower to kick in on the live adjustments for the next shots where smaller required adjustments are a plus. Regardless, it's difficult to argue with success so the challenge is for another team to assemble the components and get it done.

 

[comanche91]

The solver is a tool same as any other piece of kit you use. It's an enabler. Proper use on any tool in ELR is an added benefit. Having a user interface with a good solver under the hood allows timely corrections so you can get those shots off before the conditions change on you. I agree 100% the wind caller has more effect on hit probablity than any other piece of equipment. When dealing with 6-7 second flight times you only have 4-5 seconds to spot a change and relay that to the shooter and get the shot off.

 

[LastShot300]

Bolded and capitalized... It's obvious you are mellow as fuck about AB. Yes, there's hate aplenty for AB.

I'm no AB fanboy, but go ahead and assume what you will. Their product has worked as well or better as any other I've tried. The thing is, the proof is in the pudding so someone needs to channel their hate into competing and beating them.

Religion? Are you preachin', brother? Sounding pretty dramatic and over-reacted. Just go beat their ass, then sell a product that shows how you did it. Easy, right?

Buddy, I like your over reaction a lot! And yes, you are a fan boy no matter what you say...but that's not the point, not even close. The point is exactly what I wrote before. Any need for a translation?

If you are speaking about KO2M let me say that you need to take a look to the score chart, twice would be better. Of course they won! Who's saying not? Have you cared to read what I said before?

Now, they key to precision shooting is repeatability...not hitting. And if AB or whoever can't repeat the feat, it's just a pissing contest.

Let me state it all over again. I don't have the slightest hate for AB. I simply don't like marketing hype and false claims. And AB proved to excel at both, now and before.

 

[LastShot300]

Lets take the solvers out the 2400y shots at 8,000' using .8 and higher BC bullets traveling fast as that goes back all solvers work well into the first part of trans.. But how did they work once these started wiggling and slowing do to more drag once they spent a lot of time transonic? I was not there but can only guess, as they didn't move past the 3' targets in the first part of trans. (as in the above example). So again, in fairness, lets assume most good solvers spit out the same elevation SS and into the very first part of Trans - they tend to do so for me (I bet they do for everyone too) in an environment that hasn't spent a long time trans.(similar to Raton). However, this isn't true as that trans time increases and it has been discussed at length, in this forum. So again, lets remove the solver off the table and say it worked for them.

However, many others' experiences including mine, show a definite advantage of some solvers such as FFS and CB over AB when fed with the SAME data. What I'm saying is: it's not as simple as having better data. The solver crunching the numbers is even more critical than the data itself. Having said this, AB when coupled with a CDM is better than without it.

 

[timintx]

I think the arguments over the years on what drag function matches better through transonic and in between is not really any one function or calculations based issue. Unfortunately two things can not be calculated that are not in any programs we have today at least in civilian arenas, The first being EXACT velocity of each shot and the second being muzzle launch angle.Every gun bends under recoil due to offsets of weight below verses above the barrel center which causes a gun to bend in a vertical fashion,this bending changes the launch angle which changes the poi from one velocity to the next and at differing yardages making it very difficult to get a exact solution on any program unless your sd is 1 all of the time you can never calculate an exact solution all of the time unless you know these perimeters .I think AB works as they all work and all could use some improvements but there is always an unknown factor in all calculations.
.Muzzle launch angle is one thing that can be fixed but it must be built in to the gun by design. A ladder test will show you what your muzzle is doing using a wide range of velocities at one grain of powder increments ,the ideal for most would be no climb of POI on a hundred yard target within a range of roughly 150 fps.or about 5 grains of powder change. If they are level across the range of velocity then your calculations would typically be much closer on your ballistic solver out to extreme distance regardless of what program you use. just my observations over the years.I have experimented with this for many years and it is a significant factor in poi variations when connected to the read velocity of that shot. When it should only drop 3 inches at 1000yds [calculated] and it hits one foot low the barrel bending pointed it there.

 

[Clearlight]

Diver you have hit on a key element for me in your last post . Cost .
With other activities such as jumping out of perfectly good aircraft
and dirt biking , dropping $ 50 k on RF , PDA , Spotter 60 etc is simply
not an option for me . Back in the day , on the job it was nice to have
someone else paying for the tools . It impresses the hell out of me that
I can get similar results with a second hand $50 iPhone with AB and CDM’s ,
range from GPS ( weather depending ) and atmo off a $100 Casio watch .

 

[TripleBull]

And yes, you are a fan boy no matter what you say...

Nope. Just calling it as I see it. I've got a Kestrel with AB and have read the Litz books. Whoopie, I read alot more than that and spent way more on non-AB gear. WRT branding, it's a thing I expect this day and age. That doesn't mean I think it's a good thing but everybody wants big bucks, even in a very limited market such as ELR.

Now, they key to precision shooting is repeatability...not hitting. And if AB or whoever can't repeat the feat, it's just a pissing contest.

Well, they won Ko2M two years in a row, so that's repeatability. Snicker.

I expect ELR to be a chaotic. Sure, repeatability is key, but the available data is a bit skimpy. Who are the best real world 2 mile+ shooters/teams? If AB's not in the mix, why are they winning? And what does repeatability look like a 2 miles? Seriously, I don't know what the best shooters/teams achieve, other than what I see in the little bit available from Ko2M, forums, etc. And if there are a bunch of shooters/teams so much better than AB, why didn't someone go 3 of 5 at 2 miles? That's not something I expect to become routine but I'll watch and see if someone proves me wrong.

We don't have 2 mile comps in multiple locations every week, so there's not a solid baseline to judge against. The canceling of the Tonopah made a significant cut into the year's results. Think of how much harder it will be to put up Ko3M or Ko5M in the future, and how many fewer competitors could reasonably contend.

Let me state it all over again. I don't have the slightest hate for AB.

I'm not convinced, but it doesn't really matter. Plenty of others have it covered for you.

My earlier response was genuine - why not get out there and knock them off the throne?

 

[timintx]

Diver ,Thanks for the clarification,I do apologize for misunderstanding the root of the argument.And thanks for the help on the transonic stuff as well, you were spot on .

 

[LastShot300]

Nope. Just calling it as I see it. I've got a Kestrel with AB and have read the Litz books. Whoopie, I read alot more than that and spent way more on non-AB gear. WRT branding, it's a thing I expect this day and age. That doesn't mean I think it's a good thing but everybody wants big bucks, even in a very limited market such as ELR.

Well, they won Ko2M two years in a row, so that's repeatability. Snicker.

I expect ELR to be a chaotic. Sure, repeatability is key, but the available data is a bit skimpy. Who are the best real world 2 mile+ shooters/teams? If AB's not in the mix, why are they winning? And what does repeatability look like a 2 miles? Seriously, I don't know what the best shooters/teams achieve, other than what I see in the little bit available from Ko2M, forums, etc. And if there are a bunch of shooters/teams so much better than AB, why didn't someone go 3 of 5 at 2 miles? That's not something I expect to become routine but I'll watch and see if someone proves me wrong.

We don't have 2 mile comps in multiple locations every week, so there's not a solid baseline to judge against. The canceling of the Tonopah made a significant cut into the year's results. Think of how much harder it will be to put up Ko3M or Ko5M in the future, and how many fewer competitors could reasonably contend.


I'm not convinced, but it doesn't really matter. Plenty of others have it covered for you.

My earlier response was genuine - why not get out there and knock them off the throne?

Bro, you call it "repeatable" because the same team won the prize twice? Alas, this is really good! Maybe, just maybe, you need to review a good book on statistics...anyway, you understood exactly what I meant...and if not, go and check the score chart again. I don't see any need to further explain the obvious about what is repeatability in shooting ELR, do you?

You are still missing the whole point of my posts, as well as the others' who got it right (haters according to you).

We're discussing HYPE and FALSE CLAIMS. Am I making myself clear enough now? Do you need proof? OK, no problem.. I can come up with tenths of "statements made by AB" on their products and the competition.

You are also mixing up a competition with real ELR. Nobody cares about how many shooters are better or worse than AB as a team, and do you know why? Because the whole thread WAS NOT about their team and shooting skills to begin with. They are really good when it comes to shooting, that was never under scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.

And just out of boredom...no hate for AB. I simply cannot stand hype and the "we invented everything" syndrome AB is so fond of.