APW Expander Mandrel Set

[_Raining]

What are peoples thoughts on this: https://www.impactproshop.net/product-page/apw-expander-mandrel-set

Greatly reduce your ES and SD with this expander mandrel set from APW. The set includes the following mandrels:

224Cal
0.223
0.227

243 Cal (6mm)
0.243
0.245

264 Cal (6.5mm)
0.263
0.267

284 Cal (7mm)
0.283
0.287

30 Cal (308)
0.307
0.311

338 Cal
0.337
0.341


I contacted the guy who owns it about the values:
Me: "What’s up with the APW mandrels, aren’t normal mandrel sets -1 and -2 thou, yours are -1 and +3 for all but the 243 which is 0, +2. Are these typos?" and he replied with:
APW Guy: "Nope, ours are -1 for neck tention. The +3 is for running your new brass through and bringing them back down to the perfect size before reloading them for the first time. In reality few people do it that way. But it works"

Just curious if I am the only one who finds this odd.

AFAIK, mandrels were mainly used for neck turning -1 thou and -2 thou (expand with -1 thou and put -2 thou in neck turning tool). But then people started using these instead of bushings to set neck tension. Some people wanted a bit more granularity so 21st century started doing .5 thou increments. It seems odd to have a +3 thou mandrel. I just run my new brass through my -1 thou mandrels. Expanding it out to +3 to then run through a die is confusing to me. If you wanted more then 1 thou tension you could run the -1 thou mandrel then send it through the bushing die to get more then 1 thou tension. Only thing I could think of if there was some odd combo of spring back or a bushing to try to get less then 1 thou tension.

Am I crazy?
Is there something that I am just not comprehending?

 

[spife7980]

Just depends on what you are needing to do.
Maybe you only use a type s bushing die with no expander at all, the larger mandrel would open them up and you could size down to the same size as you will be using in all the subsequent loadings.

Is that normal? No, but its also not out of imagination.

 

[steve podleski]

 

[FLIGHT762]

Went to the web site. Cost of the set is : "R1 450,00" I thought WTF is that? Checked their contact page and they're out of Cape Town South Africa. Tried to figure out the SA Rand to US Dollar conversion, but 450,00 R is over $2900.00?

 

[Airw4ves]

I think its supposed to be R 1450.00
So $94 US?

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Went to the web site. Cost of the set is : "R1 450,00" I thought WTF is that? Checked their contact page and they're out of Cape Town South Africa. Tried to figure out the SA Rand to US Dollar conversion, but 450,00 R is over $2900.00?

I think you got an extra digit in there somewhere.

 

[FLIGHT762]

It's likely R 1450.00 ($94.00 USD), but it is written"R1 450,00". Probably shouldn't be a space between 1 and 450,00. Wonder what it would cost to buy then import to the US? Wonder what the Duty would be, if we are allowed to purchase reloading equipment overseas. Wouldn't be surprised if the Customs Duty was equal or more than the cost of the item.

 

[natdscott]

So, um. You should just use a Porter collet die and pin gages. Then, you’re not a slave to whatever bullshit they feel like hawking to you. Forever.

 

[want2learn]

interesting video...a bit long winded but informative especially for someone of my limited experience. Interestingly i had the Sinclair set in my cart.......I will see if i can get some information and pricing on the Porter die/mandrel.

 

[MarinePMI]

So, um. You should just use a Porter collet die and pin gages. Then, you’re not a slave to whatever bullshit they feel like hawking to you. Forever.

Where did you get a Porter die? I like the concept.

 

[want2learn]

Porter's Precision Products, LLC

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Porter's Precision Products, LLC

They dont seem to list them

Unless I found the wrong site? http://portersprecisionproducts.com/porter/

 

[Steel head]

I didn’t know someone else made a collet die!

 

[want2learn]

i copied this from an email response the owner sent me...i don't think he'd mind:
Kenneth D. Porter
Porter's Precision Products, LLC
Shop: 979.798.9422

 

[Steel head]

Went to the web site. Cost of the set is : "R1 450,00" I thought WTF is that? Checked their contact page and they're out of Cape Town South Africa. Tried to figure out the SA Rand to US Dollar conversion, but 450,00 R is over $2900.00?

 

[want2learn]

if i understood the pricing and options correctly it costs about $133 for one 6.5 mandrel, die and locking ring.... but please call and confirm with the owner, i'm not well versed in these things and would hate to mislead or misrepresent.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I was enslaved by some 21st Century custom mandrels. Oppression shouldn't feel this good.

 

[dttheliman]

Useless post of the day.....
South Africa uses a comma instead of a period to show decimals , similar to Germany , hence the confusion on conversion, its $94ish

 

[want2learn]

sounds like a good deal...unfortunately as is so often the case, they don't sell to California

 

[steve podleski]

i copied this from an email response the owner sent me...i don't think he'd mind:
Kenneth D. Porter
Porter's Precision Products, LLC
Shop: 979.798.9422

From an email from Porter:

The die body with nut is $85 and is not caliber specific. It can be used on cases as short as the 6BR through the Remington Ultra Mag. With careful setup it can even be used for the .338 lapua case. It uses precision collets that are commonly used to hold milling cutters and drills in the machining industry.

Collets are $25 each and generally you need 1 per caliber but some sizes will work for multiple calibers. The common collet size ranges are;

6mm - .197" to .236"

7mm - .236" to .276"

8mm - .276" to .315"

9mm - .315" to .354"

Mandrel pins are made from 2 " long precision hardened steel pin gauges. One end of the pin will be tapered and polished. They are $10 each, available in .0005" increments, and can be had in either "PLUS" (+.0002"/-0) or "MINUS" (-.0002"/+0) tolerance. Most customers settle on pins that are from .001" to .002" under the bullet diameter to achieve their desired neck tension.



Die body split lock rings are available if needed for $3 each.



Shipping and handling is typically $10



To place an order please reply with the collet and pin sizes that you would like along with your shipping address and phone number. We will contact you before shipping. If you would like to further discuss this die system please give me a call. We currently have die bodies in stock.



Thanx!

Kenneth D. Porter
Porter's Precision Products, LLC
Shop: 979.798.9422
Cell: 979.480.5010
Fax: 979.798.5396

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Split lock rings for 3 bux? I'm gonna order a dozen of those bad boys lol.

Is the porter collet better than the Lee? I use my lee collet sometimes, but I'm not really that much of a fanboy either way

 

[chevy_man]

I just use the Sinclair at -.001

Cheap and effective.

 

[MarinePMI]

Split lock rings for 3 bux? I'm gonna order a dozen of those bad boys lol.

Is the porter collet better than the Lee? I use my lee collet sometimes, but I'm not really that much of a fanboy either way

I don’t think you’re understanding how this collet die works...

 

[spife7980]

I don’t think you’re understanding how this collet die works...

Isnt it basically the same principle?

 

[MarinePMI]

Yes, and no. As I understand it, the Lee collet die irons out the neck between the sleeve and the mandrel. The Porter collet die is basically an expansion die, that uses (what appear to be) ER16 collets to hold chamfered plug gauges, so you can use cheap, highly accurate plug gauges in a wide array of thicknesses to expand the case neck to what ever neck pull tension you desire. Unless I read the thread where the die originated from, incorrectly...

 

[spife7980]

Yes, and no. As I understand it, the Lee collet die irons out the neck between the sleeve and the mandrel. The Porter collet die is basically an expansion die, that uses (what appear to be) ER16 collets to hold chamfered plug gauges, so you can use cheap, highly accurate plug gauges in a wide array of thicknesses to expand the case neck to what ever neck pull tension you desire. Unless I read the thread where the die originated from, incorrectly...

No shit? I always thought that the porter collet pinched the brass down around the mandrel as well and that the collet wasnt just for holding the expander mandrel.

 

[MarinePMI]

Pretty sure the "top" is just a nut that screws the collet into the 8* radius, forcing the collet to close around the pin gauge. Lemme go pull that thread and post a link...

ETA: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/the-ultimate-solution-to-neck-tension.3909740/page-3

This die was specifically designed for neck expansion, and the challenge of centering the different sized pin guages. Using an ER 16 collet is, well like they say, kind of genius in it's simplicity. Using a collet will allow the pin to be centered, regardless of the variance of the pin diameter. And so, you can expand your case necks without adding run out from differing sizes of mandrels. The floating aspect of the Sinclair die (I think) was thought to be too "sloppy" or "arbitrary" for these guys, in that if there were inconsistencies on the inside of the case neck, a floating expander would move of center, rather than push material to the outside of the neck. At least that was my impression when reading the thread...

ETA: The other aspect of this die is that pin gauges are relatively cheap ($5 for a 2" pin gauge) compared to custom mandrels (such as 21st Century, @$25 a piece or more). A reloader could purchase a wide array of pin gauges for very little money and play around with neck tension to a finer degree. The downside is that the pin gauges are not hardened, so they wear out over time with use. But, at $5 a piece, it was still a good trade off, considering the variety of diameters available for pin gauges.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Where go you get the tapered pin gages besides Porter? "Tapered" pin gages are tapered they entire length and the straight pin gages I've looked at don't have a chamfer on the ends.

 

[spife7980]

Where go you get the tapered pin gages besides Porter? "Tapered" pin gages are tapered they entire length and the straight pin gages I've looked at don't have a chamfer on the ends.

+

 

[MarinePMI]

I think you get them from Porter, and they are just straight pin gauges he has chamfered.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

View attachment 7264815

+

View attachment 7264814

That's real retarded sir.

 

[rockmyglock]

Went to the web site. Cost of the set is : "R1 450,00" I thought WTF is that? Checked their contact page and they're out of Cape Town South Africa. Tried to figure out the SA Rand to US Dollar conversion, but 450,00 R is over $2900.00?

$29.37USD

Commas are often used internationally instead of decimals. It's like the metric system for currency. ?

 

[spife7980]

That's real retarded sir.

Explain how, genius.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Explain how, genius.

Something something...precision pin gages accurate to the fourth decimal...grinding chamfer by hand on a bench grinder. Does it sound good to you? You may be the Mayor of the hide but that wasn't well thought out.

 

[spife7980]

So by removing some material to make a little bevel so that a corner doesnt catch... you are going to somehow change the dimension of the rest of the pin where the brass will actually be touching the mandrel? What do you think that Mr Porter is doing to his pin gauges?

 

[MarinePMI]

Honestly, I think chucking them up in a lathe or drill press, and using some emery paper (on a backer) would suffice to chamfer the edge. I mean, all you're doing is keeping the case mouth from catching the edge of the pin...

ETA: I guess Spife hit the reply button a second before I did...

 

[Cascade Hemi]

So by removing some material to make a little bevel so that a corner doesnt catch... you are going to somehow change the dimension of the rest of the pin where the brass will actually be touching the mandrel? What do you think that Mr Porter is doing to his pin gauges?

What happens when the chamfer you cut by hand isn't square to the diameter of the pin? Does the case slide down the pin perfectly straight or does it tilt to contact the crooked chamfer? I may as well keep using the Sinclair die and mandrels if I'm willing to just settle for hand sanding the mandrel I expected .0001 accuracy from. That's potato quality.

 

[Ryridesmotox]

Pretty sure the "top" is just a nut that screws the collet into the 8* radius, forcing the collet to close around the pin gauge. Lemme go pull that thread and post a link...

ETA: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/the-ultimate-solution-to-neck-tension.3909740/page-3

This die was specifically designed for neck expansion, and the challenge of centering the different sized pin guages. Using an ER 16 collet is, well like they say, kind of genius in it's simplicity. Using a collet will allow the pin to be centered, regardless of the variance of the pin diameter. And so, you can expand your case necks without adding run out from differing sizes of mandrels. The floating aspect of the Sinclair die (I think) was thought to be too "sloppy" or "arbitrary" for these guys, in that if there were inconsistencies on the inside of the case neck, a floating expander would move of center, rather than push material to the outside of the neck. At least that was my impression when reading the thread...

ETA: The other aspect of this die is that pin gauges are relatively cheap ($5 for a 2" pin gauge) compared to custom mandrels (such as 21st Century, @$25 a piece or more). A reloader could purchase a wide array of pin gauges for very little money and play around with neck tension to a finer degree. The downside is that the pin gauges are not hardened, so they wear out over time with use. But, at $5 a piece, it was still a good trade off, considering the variety of diameters available for pin gauges.

I see now. I just never saw a picture of how they were assembled before. I searched their site, but their website did have much info orb pictures. Maybe it was just the mobile site?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I called Porter's, if you order four or more pins they'll give you 20% off the pins.

 

[want2learn]

i wonder if they'd be interested in a group buy scenario?

I like the South African model, looks very well thought out with all the pieces right there in a holder.

 

[BrentlyWhite]

Watching.....the porter interest me. I use Sinclair now.

 

[Steel head]

Isnt it basically the same principle?
View attachment 7264669
View attachment 7264670

The collet part of the upper die looks familiar.

Maybe ER collet?

 

[MarinePMI]

Yeah, based on the dimensions, I suspect an ER-16 collet.

 

[PietSkiet]

Howdy Gents,

First of all, Im humbled by our products being discussed on the Hide. I should probably be looking here more often. To clear up any confusion, the conversion would be 94.45USD at todays exchange rate.

At APW we make a few other awesome products like the Raptor muzzle brake which people have been emailing us to send to the US. Unfortunately to do one at a time will be costly. We are in the works of seeing a US based partner and we will update you once we have done so.

Again, thanks for your interest. With regards to the 243, the machinist had a typo. So the over is 0,002 instead of 0,003.

 

[want2learn]

very cool, please keep us informed. definitely interested

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I received the Porter mandrel "kit" this week. The quotes are because it's not a kit, I just ordered enough to replace all of the Sinclair parts I have. I ordered the die body and collets that will work from 22 to 30 (three collets), a split locking ring, and 222-, 223+, 241-, 242+, 262-, 263+, 306-, and 307+. The combination I bought puts the mandrels .0012" apart.

The good:
The Porter system and mandrels are for sure more precise than the Sinclair. I mic'd the mandrels and the + sizes are exactly +.0002 and the minus are exactly -.0000. None of the mandrels are over or under to .0000. There is no run out that I can measure to .000, certainly none that would be measurable with the standard reloading tools I use.
The mandrels are a lot less expensive than the Sinclair and you can choose the sizes. They are exactly the size you ask for instead of +/-.0005 from Sinclair.
The die body, "nut", collets, and mandrels are very well made. They do not look like inexpensive production pieces.
The mandrels ended up being $8ea.

The bad:
The system uses collets and requires wrenches (no shit, right?). It's not tool less like the Sinclair and hand tightening the collets is not sufficient so setup takes a little more time.
Porter states their system will only work down to BR length cases and they meen it. 223 Remington is too short, I haven't tried Grendel yet but it might barely work. If Porter made the die body shorter it would work with smaller cases, I don't know why they don't. The Sinclair mandrel die body is short for this reason. Maybe I'll take a belt sander to the die body later on and see if I can make it work for 223 Remington.
The split ring that everyone was interested in for $3 is a Hornady locking ring. I probably have 10 or 15 of them in my drawer that I bought on close out for the same price. They aren't anything special and I replaced the one from Porter with a Sinclair locking split ring because it fits the CoAx better, not because the Hornady ring doesn't work. If you like the Hornady ring they are worth the $3 Porter is charging.

Overall it is a nice system and good alternative to Sinclair if you want more mandrel options. I'm moving away from the Sinclair system so it's a win.

 

[want2learn]

thanks for the excellent write up.

...i was really hoping this die system would work for both my .222 Remington as well as the 6.5x47.

Perhaps they'll develop an option to enable expanded use of their system.

Unfortunately i do not have any reliable way to shorten the die though i remain very interested.

 

[want2learn]

Mr. Porter is awesome at communications....i ran the challenge of expanding shorter cases with him via email and he was kind enough to provide a nice instruction sheet.....i thought copying and pasting the whole document probably wouldn't be appropriate but pertinent to this question:

1. When expanding necks on short cases (such as 6 BR) it may be necessary to set the pin up to ½” below flush into the collet in order for the pin to fully reach the neck of the case.

I'll likely order one in a few weeks as finances allow.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

You beat me to it. Ken emailed me this morning with the same information. I'll give it a try at the end of the week.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

223 Remington and 6.5G are no problem. The mandrel included instructions that I did not originally see.